Cloudy formulations and filtering

    Cloudy formulations and filtering

    post #1 of 5
    Thread Starter 

    Copied from another post, because i think it can grow to another thread with advice and it was a bit off-topic there ;)


    Quote:
    Originally Posted bymister1View Post

    Thanks for the link jsparla, very informative.

    I aslo checked out your 'Perfume Formulas, Accords and Recipes' which were terrific.

    I see that you refrigerate your blends which I will now try. I do find however that a number of my formulations are cloudy and remain so over time (no added water although myalcohol is only 85%). I have tried DPG and both Polysorbates 80 & 20 as dispersants without out much success. I assume I will have to resort to filtration?

    Would appreciate your advice.

    I suppose the cloudiness of your compositions comes indeed from H2O in the alcohol, which is only 85%. That gives you about 15% H2O, and thats sufficient to introduce cloudiness in combination with the oils.

    I must admit that i've never experienced it myself, always using 95%-98% ethanol.

    However, i made some aftershave a while ago (simple, but love the deep warm smell!), based on this ingredients, where the rose-water was definitely introducing a vast amount of H2O, and managed to get it transparent by addingPolysorbate 20 (in short Tween20):

    (drops)

    White rose 20

    Tolu balsem 25% 30

    Givescone 10% 20

    Black agar (G) 10

    Tween20 50

    Rosewater 400

    Ethanol 400

    Rule of thumb is to use about the same amount of Tween20 as oils. Mix them together, then add ethanol and finish with adding water compounds.

    I remember that Tween80 is the better for use in balms and creams.

    Filtration is also considered to be a good practice to get rid of the cloudiness.

    But then again, little experience on my side, so i suppose we will get some other neat tricks from our fellow perfumers :)

    post #2 of 5

    You can easily remove water from ethanol using type 3A molecular sieves. They're available on e-bay. Simply add them to your solution, shake for a while, then filter.

    'Type 3A molecular sieves should be used to dry acetone, ethanol and methanol.

    Molecular sieves are typically zeolite compounds that strongly adsorb water and have carefully controlled pore sizes. While both the solvent and the water will adsorb strongly to the molecular sieve surfaces, the large surface area within the pores is only accessible to the smaller water molecules, so they are effectively removed from the solvent. water (1.93A) will enter that 3A pore size while acetone (3.08A) will largely be excluded. Water will be able to occupy the large surface area inside the pores and thus be removed. If the solvent could also enter the pores, it would compete with water for the surface area and there would be little or no removal of the water from the bulk solvent. Type 4A molecular sieve is not suitable for drying ethanol, methanol, or acetone since the pore size does not exclude these solvents
    .'

    -

    post #3 of 5

    Good point, Skelly. I'll add that you can reuse the 3A zeolite if you dry it in the oven.

    post #4 of 5

    Sounds good skelly, will give it a try

    post #5 of 5

    Sounds good Skelly, will give it a try

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    6/11/13 at 7:09am

    jsparla said:



    Copied from another post, because i think it can grow to another thread with advice and it was a bit off-topic there ;)


    Quote:
    Originally Posted bymister1View Post

    Thanks for the link jsparla, very informative.

    I aslo checked out your 'Perfume Formulas, Accords and Recipes' which were terrific.

    I see that you refrigerate your blends which I will now try. I do find however that a number of my formulations are cloudy and remain so over time (no added water although myalcohol is only 85%). I have tried DPG and both Polysorbates 80 & 20 as dispersants without out much success. I assume I will have to resort to filtration?

    Would appreciate your advice.

    I suppose the cloudiness of your compositions comes indeed from H2O in the alcohol, which is only 85%. That gives you about 15% H2O, and thats sufficient to introduce cloudiness in combination with the oils.

    I must admit that i've never experienced it myself, always using 95%-98% ethanol.

    However, i made some aftershave a while ago (simple, but love the deep warm smell!), based on this ingredients, where the rose-water was definitely introducing a vast amount of H2O, and managed to get it transparent by addingPolysorbate 20 (in short Tween20):

    (drops)

    White rose 20

    Tolu balsem 25% 30

    Givescone 10% 20

    Black agar (G) 10

    Tween20 50

    Rosewater 400

    Ethanol 400

    Rule of thumb is to use about the same amount of Tween20 as oils. Mix them together, then add ethanol and finish with adding water compounds.

    I remember that Tween80 is the better for use in balms and creams.

    Filtration is also considered to be a good practice to get rid of the cloudiness.

    But then again, little experience on my side, so i suppose we will get some other neat tricks from our fellow perfumers :)

    6/13/13 at 11:45am

    Skelly said:



    You can easily remove water from ethanol using type 3A molecular sieves. They're available on e-bay. Simply add them to your solution, shake for a while, then filter.

    'Type 3A molecular sieves should be used to dry acetone, ethanol and methanol.

    Molecular sieves are typically zeolite compounds that strongly adsorb water and have carefully controlled pore sizes. While both the solvent and the water will adsorb strongly to the molecular sieve surfaces, the large surface area within the pores is only accessible to the smaller water molecules, so they are effectively removed from the solvent. water (1.93A) will enter that 3A pore size while acetone (3.08A) will largely be excluded. Water will be able to occupy the large surface area inside the pores and thus be removed. If the solvent could also enter the pores, it would compete with water for the surface area and there would be little or no removal of the water from the bulk solvent. Type 4A molecular sieve is not suitable for drying ethanol, methanol, or acetone since the pore size does not exclude these solvents
    .'

    -

    6/13/13 at 12:12pm

    Pears said:



    Good point, Skelly. I'll add that you can reuse the 3A zeolite if you dry it in the oven.

    6/13/13 at 9:51pm

    mister1 said:



    Sounds good skelly, will give it a try

    6/13/13 at 9:52pm

    mister1 said:



    Sounds good Skelly, will give it a try





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