In the Mix: which EOs and ACs tend to fade after a few days?

    In the Mix: which EOs and ACs tend to fade after a few days?

    post #1 of 12
    Thread Starter 
    I get in these "mad scientist" modes, where I mix up a storm. And waiting 48 hours for things to "settle" before I futz…goes against my impatient nature!

    I've noticed that some things tend to "settle" more than others.

    Bergamot, to me, tends to step way back after a day or two.

    Anyone have any others?

    Do ACs do this? Or, because they are more straightforward, do they tend to keep their intensity?

    Does anything tend to become more present?
    post #2 of 12

    Your method of working is not Perfumery.

    post #3 of 12

    To quote one of the sticky threads....

     

    Why does my perfume only last a short time?
    You need to mix the fragrance oils the way a musical chord is composed, with high, middle and low notes that compliment each other.

    The depth or weight of a specific fragrance oil's aroma is based on the oil's volatility - i.e., how fast it disappears, relative to other oils. A quick way to experience this for yourself is to take some blotting paper (coffee filters, paper towels, absorbent paper, etc.) and drop two or three drops of the fragrance Oil on each blotter. Try a range of oils, one or two citrus oils, a "wood" oil like cedarwood, rosewood, or, best of all, Patchouli or Vetiver; and something in the middle, perhaps lavender or geranium. Wait a few hours and then smell them. The citrus oils will have almost disappeared, while the deeper base notes should be unchanged. Smell it again after 24 hours, 48 hours, etc. This will give you a foundational understanding of the weight of each oil.

    post #4 of 12

    Pears, I think Jungle is talking about the changes that happen while the perfume is maturing in the bottle, not the development of the perfume in use, on the skin, or on paper.
     

    post #5 of 12

    In my opinion, something akin to larger molecules taking longer to emerge, and smaller quicker to receed, may well occur. Smells added early emerge over time, other things equal, and other things are not typically equal. The last smell added takes time to recede.

     

    The more time passes, the more the mix trends toward a state where all chemicals are equally smellable, but a mix never reaches that state, because of other superceding variables, especially the weight and strength of ingredients. Anything prominent typically becomes less prominent, in somewhat of a regression to the mean.

     

    On the other hand, every chemical travels through a mixture in a unique way, and you have to learn via experience. Surprises happen all the time.

     

    It is entirely possible for one aspect of a smell to emerge, and the other aspect of the same smell to receed. Yet smells that are alike in a relevant fashion, belonging to the same note, merge with time and strengthen each other, in one way, while weakening each ingredient as an individual ingredient, in another way.

     

    Ha ha, this is funny to try to explain.

     

    At first it smells fragmented, but it hangs together in an orderly fashion with time. If only the order achieved was always the desired one!

     

    One interesting analogy is from data processing, where you are defragmenting a disc, and you think about the chunks of data that are difficult to move and integrate with the rest of the data, pardon the weird obscurity.


    Edited by DrSmellThis - 7/1/13 at 3:51am
    post #6 of 12
    Thread Starter 
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post

    Your method of working is not Perfumery.

    Wow.

    post #7 of 12
    Thread Starter 

    Thanks for the reply!

     

    I guess you're right, that everything would settle down somewhat differently, due to the other elements involved.

     

    I guess I was wondering if (any of the more experienced peeps) encountered any common occurrences when mixing.

     

    Another I've noticed is that Citral seems to not only strong at the start, it tends to dominate once things settle down.

     

    Also, I've been recently been playing around with Nutmeg, and it seems to be very present at first, and then fade way, way back.

     

    :)

    post #8 of 12

    If you start out by learning about the Raw Materials you are going to use, a lot of your questions will have been answered.   You start off slowly, learning the smells and performances of individual materials, then start making simple blends so you can control the amounts of each and see the effect that each has on the other.   Once you have mastered this, you can start with more and more complex mixtures confident that you can pretty well predict the outcome.

     

    That's what I meant when I commented above that your method of working is not Perfumery. 

    post #9 of 12

    Jungle, Mad Scientist mixing is a valid form of experimentation...  

     

    But, Little jungle Grasshopper, Patience must still be a virtue - no matter the experiment

     

    You must be at peace with yourself and the molecular universe - 

    You MUST learn the ways of silence.

     

    Time is your Friend, not your enemy....

     

    [or stepping out of the Kung Fu movie, and into the NYC vernacular:]

     

    CHILL DUDE!

     

    As you have observed, Aldehyde laden citrus takes a few days to settle in and get homey in the blend.

    Other materials just stick out like a sore thumb, and you have to hammer them back down into place.

     

    Learning these lessons are what learning Perfumery is about...

    The best way to learn, is by doing and smelling.

     

    I got amazed this week, by targeting to make a Men's blend, put in lots of woods, and a few other things, looking for a nice men's frag, and what I got smells just like fresh Strawberry guava fruits,  SURPRISE!!!  - NOT what I thought I'd get...

    post #10 of 12

    Hi JungleNYC,

     

    One effect i notice over and over again in blends smoothing out, becoming milder, softer, more balanced is the influence of base notes and mid notes as blenders for the top notes.

     

    As a rule of thumb, i use for myself:

    • if compositions start to get muddy, heavy on the throat, after maturation there are probably to many heavy weight molecules (i.e. base notes and mid notes) in general
    • if compositions lose their sparkling top notes after maturation their is probably a dis-balance between base notes and mid notes on the one side and top notes on the other

     

    I visualize it myself, as base notes getting bonds with top notes during maturation (don't know if that's chemically speaking what's happening, don't think so, but it helps understanding for me anyways). I call it the blending factor. Neither top and base note will survive in this maturing process as 'they where from the bottle in the beginning'. There is definitely some kind of chemistry at work ;)

    If a blend 'does a step backwards' during maturation, in other words it loses some 'top' sparkles, some fizz so to say, the way i alter it is:

    1. cutting back on basenotes that seem to 'absorb' top notes during maturation
    2. adding topnotes in an overdose
    3. add a aroma chemical thats well known for adding lift, shine and sparkles (see Final Touch for example aroma chemicals)

     

    To illustrate 1. and 2., please take a look on these two formulae, FD and FJ.

     

    FJ is rather overwhelming bright after mixing, it is almost like the original Issey Miyake. Far to overwhelming to my taste. After three or four days maturation, the bright top notes are all pushed back, due to the rather vast amount of base notes present. They've 'bond', so to say. Now take a look on FD. There is a overdose of top notes compared to the amount of base notes. It keeps the sharp opening as seen in for example GIT, even after weeks of maturation.

     

    Hope this helps and shines some light on your quest.

     

    Happy perfuming!

    post #11 of 12

    Jsparla's reply was informative.

     

    I will suggest one exercise; to pick out a number of relatively unpleasant materials, that are nonetheless used in perfuming, and practice making blends with those. Those provide lessons about tracking "fade", as the immediate impression upon adding the correct dose is not always as pleasant as it should be (correct me if I'm wrong, as I am typically just speaking from personal experience, unless otherwise indicated).

     

    I love "ugly" top notes, like tea tree, menthol, and camphor, in that respect.  These are good to study.

     

    Summer savory or thyme would be a good one to experiment with here, as these are so strong and interesting, they are either going to fade and make the whole thing more interesting, or dominate with their own patterns. You have to find out which.

     

    Sulfurous notes are another intetresting exercise I could use myself.

     

    Cumin is great that way. Track it. Similar to nutmeg, as you mentioned.

     

    Geranium and lavender have a strong immediate efffect, which is interesting to track.

     

    The number of base notes with interesting time effects are numerous. Valerian is a fun experiment, or costus.

     

    Aftel once wrote, "nothing prowls through a mix" like civet. For me, she was talkiing about all animal products.

     

    As you say, some receed with time, some dominate.

     

    In many cases, as David would remind us, this is because every natural substance is a collection of aromachemicals with their own rates of evaporation.

     

    As with life, ugly often becomes beautiful with time. On the other hand, I was always told beauty is only skin deep whereas ugly is to the bone. So what do I know? Father time is beating me with an ugly stick as we speak, and I will report back when I figure everything out... :)

     

    So as David says, you have to get to know the materials. Learning about perfume making involves exercises and studies. In practice, you get curious about an idea, and sit down with odorous substances.

     

    For me, it often happens when I read about a funky note, like say spikenard, and you think, "what could be going through someone's mind to want to use this stuff?" I wonder that about every funky or pungent or dominant note, similar to the folks here who sustained a long thread on "skunk". So it's fun to track these.

     

    Another kind of "funky note exercise" would be to take one such overly interesting note, and combine it with several relatively neutral substances, say benzoin, linalool, lemon, sandalwood, rose, and galaxolide, to invoke a mix of top, mid, and bottom notes. Make six vials mixing your chemical of interest with each of those substances, using suitable dilutions. Make notes on each substance as regards time effects this way, as one way to study it.


    Edited by DrSmellThis - 7/3/13 at 4:41am
    post #12 of 12
    Thread Starter 
    Thanks for all the great replies!

    This is definitely a labor of love, and a never ending process smile.gif

    The observations you shared will certainly help me better attack each mix, and have a better-educated idea of what to expect, and why "stuff behaves the way it does."

    Yes. The only way to REALLY know is to do it yourself. But learning from others' mistakes is very, very helpful.

    PS, another one I'm currently dealing with is MINT. It really dominates, and doesn't seem to fade. So…FYI. Lol.
    class="

    6/30/13 at 3:51pm

    JungleNYC said:



    I get in these "mad scientist" modes, where I mix up a storm. And waiting 48 hours for things to "settle" before I futz…goes against my impatient nature!

    I've noticed that some things tend to "settle" more than others.

    Bergamot, to me, tends to step way back after a day or two.

    Anyone have any others?

    Do ACs do this? Or, because they are more straightforward, do they tend to keep their intensity?

    Does anything tend to become more present?

    7/1/13 at 12:20am

    David Ruskin said:



    Your method of working is not Perfumery.

    7/1/13 at 1:16am

    Pears said:



    To quote one of the sticky threads....

     

    Why does my perfume only last a short time?
    You need to mix the fragrance oils the way a musical chord is composed, with high, middle and low notes that compliment each other.

    The depth or weight of a specific fragrance oil's aroma is based on the oil's volatility - i.e., how fast it disappears, relative to other oils. A quick way to experience this for yourself is to take some blotting paper (coffee filters, paper towels, absorbent paper, etc.) and drop two or three drops of the fragrance Oil on each blotter. Try a range of oils, one or two citrus oils, a "wood" oil like cedarwood, rosewood, or, best of all, Patchouli or Vetiver; and something in the middle, perhaps lavender or geranium. Wait a few hours and then smell them. The citrus oils will have almost disappeared, while the deeper base notes should be unchanged. Smell it again after 24 hours, 48 hours, etc. This will give you a foundational understanding of the weight of each oil.

    7/1/13 at 1:24am

    Alysoun said:



    Pears, I think Jungle is talking about the changes that happen while the perfume is maturing in the bottle, not the development of the perfume in use, on the skin, or on paper.
     

    7/1/13 at 3:26am

    DrSmellThis said:



    In my opinion, something akin to larger molecules taking longer to emerge, and smaller quicker to receed, may well occur. Smells added early emerge over time, other things equal, and other things are not typically equal. The last smell added takes time to recede.

     

    The more time passes, the more the mix trends toward a state where all chemicals are equally smellable, but a mix never reaches that state, because of other superceding variables, especially the weight and strength of ingredients. Anything prominent typically becomes less prominent, in somewhat of a regression to the mean.

     

    On the other hand, every chemical travels through a mixture in a unique way, and you have to learn via experience. Surprises happen all the time.

     

    It is entirely possible for one aspect of a smell to emerge, and the other aspect of the same smell to receed. Yet smells that are alike in a relevant fashion, belonging to the same note, merge with time and strengthen each other, in one way, while weakening each ingredient as an individual ingredient, in another way.

     

    Ha ha, this is funny to try to explain.

     

    At first it smells fragmented, but it hangs together in an orderly fashion with time. If only the order achieved was always the desired one!

     

    One interesting analogy is from data processing, where you are defragmenting a disc, and you think about the chunks of data that are difficult to move and integrate with the rest of the data, pardon the weird obscurity.


    Edited by DrSmellThis - 7/1/13 at 3:51am

    7/1/13 at 5:48am

    JungleNYC said:



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post

    Your method of working is not Perfumery.

    Wow.

    7/1/13 at 5:54am

    JungleNYC said:



    Thanks for the reply!

     

    I guess you're right, that everything would settle down somewhat differently, due to the other elements involved.

     

    I guess I was wondering if (any of the more experienced peeps) encountered any common occurrences when mixing.

     

    Another I've noticed is that Citral seems to not only strong at the start, it tends to dominate once things settle down.

     

    Also, I've been recently been playing around with Nutmeg, and it seems to be very present at first, and then fade way, way back.

     

    :)

    7/1/13 at 9:12am

    David Ruskin said:



    If you start out by learning about the Raw Materials you are going to use, a lot of your questions will have been answered.   You start off slowly, learning the smells and performances of individual materials, then start making simple blends so you can control the amounts of each and see the effect that each has on the other.   Once you have mastered this, you can start with more and more complex mixtures confident that you can pretty well predict the outcome.

     

    That's what I meant when I commented above that your method of working is not Perfumery. 

    7/1/13 at 9:59am

    pkiler said:



    Jungle, Mad Scientist mixing is a valid form of experimentation...  

     

    But, Little jungle Grasshopper, Patience must still be a virtue - no matter the experiment

     

    You must be at peace with yourself and the molecular universe - 

    You MUST learn the ways of silence.

     

    Time is your Friend, not your enemy....

     

    [or stepping out of the Kung Fu movie, and into the NYC vernacular:]

     

    CHILL DUDE!

     

    As you have observed, Aldehyde laden citrus takes a few days to settle in and get homey in the blend.

    Other materials just stick out like a sore thumb, and you have to hammer them back down into place.

     

    Learning these lessons are what learning Perfumery is about...

    The best way to learn, is by doing and smelling.

     

    I got amazed this week, by targeting to make a Men's blend, put in lots of woods, and a few other things, looking for a nice men's frag, and what I got smells just like fresh Strawberry guava fruits,  SURPRISE!!!  - NOT what I thought I'd get...

    7/2/13 at 11:27am

    jsparla said:



    Hi JungleNYC,

     

    One effect i notice over and over again in blends smoothing out, becoming milder, softer, more balanced is the influence of base notes and mid notes as blenders for the top notes.

     

    As a rule of thumb, i use for myself:

    • if compositions start to get muddy, heavy on the throat, after maturation there are probably to many heavy weight molecules (i.e. base notes and mid notes) in general
    • if compositions lose their sparkling top notes after maturation their is probably a dis-balance between base notes and mid notes on the one side and top notes on the other

     

    I visualize it myself, as base notes getting bonds with top notes during maturation (don't know if that's chemically speaking what's happening, don't think so, but it helps understanding for me anyways). I call it the blending factor. Neither top and base note will survive in this maturing process as 'they where from the bottle in the beginning'. There is definitely some kind of chemistry at work ;)

    If a blend 'does a step backwards' during maturation, in other words it loses some 'top' sparkles, some fizz so to say, the way i alter it is:

    1. cutting back on basenotes that seem to 'absorb' top notes during maturation
    2. adding topnotes in an overdose
    3. add a aroma chemical thats well known for adding lift, shine and sparkles (see Final Touch for example aroma chemicals)

     

    To illustrate 1. and 2., please take a look on these two formulae, FD and FJ.

     

    FJ is rather overwhelming bright after mixing, it is almost like the original Issey Miyake. Far to overwhelming to my taste. After three or four days maturation, the bright top notes are all pushed back, due to the rather vast amount of base notes present. They've 'bond', so to say. Now take a look on FD. There is a overdose of top notes compared to the amount of base notes. It keeps the sharp opening as seen in for example GIT, even after weeks of maturation.

     

    Hope this helps and shines some light on your quest.

     

    Happy perfuming!

    7/3/13 at 4:15am

    DrSmellThis said:



    Jsparla's reply was informative.

     

    I will suggest one exercise; to pick out a number of relatively unpleasant materials, that are nonetheless used in perfuming, and practice making blends with those. Those provide lessons about tracking "fade", as the immediate impression upon adding the correct dose is not always as pleasant as it should be (correct me if I'm wrong, as I am typically just speaking from personal experience, unless otherwise indicated).

     

    I love "ugly" top notes, like tea tree, menthol, and camphor, in that respect.  These are good to study.

     

    Summer savory or thyme would be a good one to experiment with here, as these are so strong and interesting, they are either going to fade and make the whole thing more interesting, or dominate with their own patterns. You have to find out which.

     

    Sulfurous notes are another intetresting exercise I could use myself.

     

    Cumin is great that way. Track it. Similar to nutmeg, as you mentioned.

     

    Geranium and lavender have a strong immediate efffect, which is interesting to track.

     

    The number of base notes with interesting time effects are numerous. Valerian is a fun experiment, or costus.

     

    Aftel once wrote, "nothing prowls through a mix" like civet. For me, she was talkiing about all animal products.

     

    As you say, some receed with time, some dominate.

     

    In many cases, as David would remind us, this is because every natural substance is a collection of aromachemicals with their own rates of evaporation.

     

    As with life, ugly often becomes beautiful with time. On the other hand, I was always told beauty is only skin deep whereas ugly is to the bone. So what do I know? Father time is beating me with an ugly stick as we speak, and I will report back when I figure everything out... :)

     

    So as David says, you have to get to know the materials. Learning about perfume making involves exercises and studies. In practice, you get curious about an idea, and sit down with odorous substances.

     

    For me, it often happens when I read about a funky note, like say spikenard, and you think, "what could be going through someone's mind to want to use this stuff?" I wonder that about every funky or pungent or dominant note, similar to the folks here who sustained a long thread on "skunk". So it's fun to track these.

     

    Another kind of "funky note exercise" would be to take one such overly interesting note, and combine it with several relatively neutral substances, say benzoin, linalool, lemon, sandalwood, rose, and galaxolide, to invoke a mix of top, mid, and bottom notes. Make six vials mixing your chemical of interest with each of those substances, using suitable dilutions. Make notes on each substance as regards time effects this way, as one way to study it.


    Edited by DrSmellThis - 7/3/13 at 4:41am

    7/6/13 at 12:02pm

    JungleNYC said:



    Thanks for all the great replies!

    This is definitely a labor of love, and a never ending process smile.gif

    The observations you shared will certainly help me better attack each mix, and have a better-educated idea of what to expect, and why "stuff behaves the way it does."

    Yes. The only way to REALLY know is to do it yourself. But learning from others' mistakes is very, very helpful.

    PS, another one I'm currently dealing with is MINT. It really dominates, and doesn't seem to fade. So…FYI. Lol.





Loving perfume on the Internet since 2000