Mixing a new blend, How the fragrance changes over time?

    Mixing a new blend, How the fragrance changes over time?

    post #1 of 10
    Thread Starter 

    When you mix a few ingredients to make a perfume, how does the fragrance change over time?

    For example, if you add 5 different ingredients, Essential oils or aromachemicals, and mix them together and smell, you will have one fragrance.

    If you smell it 2 weeks later, that same blend will smell very different!

    How is this possible? Why does it happen? What is going on?

    I cannot seem to understand how they are already blended together in alcohol, yet the fragrance transforms and blends and changes over time as the ingredients sit together longer.

    Does the fragrance really change or is it just me?

    post #2 of 10
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by kamasView Post

    When you mix a few ingredients to make a perfume, how does the fragrance change over time?

    For example, if you add 5 different ingredients, Essential oils or aromachemicals, and mix them together and smell, you will have one fragrance.

    If you smell it 2 weeks later, that same blend will smell very different!

    How is this possible? Why does it happen? What is going on?

    I cannot seem to understand how they are already blended together in alcohol, yet the fragrance transforms and blends and changes over time as the ingredients sit together longer.

    Does the fragrance really change or is it just me?

    It's an extremely well-known phenomenon. Before actually trying the perfume making, just making up the plans, I though "oh, that's for the pros. The difference will be so small I won't notice". I was dead wrong, fascinated and got instantly hooked since there was so much more to it than expected.

    Alcohol is not inert. Alcohol reacts with the scent molecyles creating new scent molecules. I suppose there could also be other molecules in the oils which don't in themselves smell much, but then react with the alcohol and possibly also with other components in the mix.

    The little info I've found on what's actually going on is that esters are formed. Carboxylic acid plus alcohol yields esters, as we learned in highschool chemistry. Do we have plenty of carboxylic acids floating around in essential oils? I have no clue.

    And then there's the interesting thing that when several essential oils are combined, the mix will mature and change too. The individual scent molecules must somehow react with each other.

    What does really happen chemically? There must be plenty of reactions going on - in organic chemistry you typically can let two substances react and as a result get a mix, not just one molecule. That much I remember. But there must be common "themes"; kinds of reactions. Does anyone know? Can someone recommend reading? I must admit I probably won't go and buy books on the topic tomorrow. I'm a student and have to spend money on other books. But suggestions for the future would be great. I don't suppose I don't really need that info, I'm just curious...

    BTW. Does this "maturation" of a scent have a specific name?

    post #3 of 10
    Thread Starter 
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TheOnionView Post

    Alcohol reacts with the scent molecyles creating new scent molecules. I suppose there could also be other molecules in the oils which don't in themselves smell much, but then react with the alcohol and possibly also with other components in the mix.

    In other words , you think that the alcohol mixes with the aromachemicals/scent molecules in the fragrance, and create new aromachemicals?

    So, if you did an experiment like this:

    1) Take the raw ingredients and put them through a GC test, (take 1 gram of 5 aromachemicals individually, in individual containers.)

    2) After mixing ingrediends in equal amounts, put them thru a GC test (take 1 gram of 5 aromachemicals, but this time mix them together in the same container)

    EDITED TO ADD: In part 2, only run half of it through the GC, then 3 months later, run the other half.

    If you used the same exact amount and concentration of aromachemicals in each test, then will your end results of the GC test be the same? Since they are all the same ingredients in equal amounts, it seems like it should be the same. However, you are saying they will be different?

    Since the smell is different to us, it seems that if you did this test, you might get different results the way you explained. Does anyone know?

    Will you get different results that demonstrates new aromachemicals being created in experiment #2 above?


    Edited by kamas - 7/25/13 at 12:56am
    post #4 of 10

    You left an important factor out. Time. The relevant experiment would be to make a mix and run half of it through the gas cromatograph and then three months later, run the second half.


    Edited by TheOnion - 7/25/13 at 12:52am
    post #5 of 10
    Thread Starter 

    Yes you are correct about that. I just edited it to add that part.

    post #6 of 10
    Thread Starter 

    Does anyone here know the answers about these things?

    post #7 of 10

    I need to answer quickly, but really you should do your own reading, and research to understand this better for yourself.

    As said, "Maturation" is the time consuming part of constructing a fragrance. If you construct a fragrance with pretty and bright aldehydes, and get it just right in a couple of hours, a week later, it will seem so very flat, as compard to what you intended at the time. This is the part of the maturation, blending, chemical interdependancies and co-mingling interactions.

    In time, blends will smooooooth out.

    Live with it, and enjoy the passage of time. The practice of Perfumery is a contemplative discipline. Either live with it, or leave it.

    Over time, some fragrance constituents do in fact react with the alcohol, and form secondary and tertiary chemicals. GC-MS'ing a fragrance that is vintage will show a different gc result from a current production frag, even if the constructive formula is the same, due to this time-process.

    Aldehydes react with ethyl and methyl anthranilate and change into different molcules, this can happen at room temp over the course of a month or a few months. It is hurried if the two chemicals are blended and stirred with heat to intentionally make them into a third chemical. These are called Schiff bases.

    This is Chemistry. Fragrance Chemistry.

    I suggest that you start researching this subject and spend many hours figuring this out for yourself.

    post #8 of 10
    Thread Starter 

    Thanks Pkiler, Do you know any readings or books that I can find and read more about it?

    post #9 of 10

    You could start with this one, that should be in each serious novice perfumer's library:http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Perfumery-Tony-Curtis/dp/096087528X

    post #10 of 10

    Yes, In addition to the Curtis Book, These are both excellent and not so very expensive...

    The Chemistry of Fragrances: From Perfumer to Consumer (RSC Paperbacks)[Hardcover]

    Charles S Sell

    Price: $34.17

    Scent and Chemistry : The Molecular World of Odors

    Book

    class="

    7/24/13 at 11:28pm

    kamas said:



    When you mix a few ingredients to make a perfume, how does the fragrance change over time?

    For example, if you add 5 different ingredients, Essential oils or aromachemicals, and mix them together and smell, you will have one fragrance.

    If you smell it 2 weeks later, that same blend will smell very different!

    How is this possible? Why does it happen? What is going on?

    I cannot seem to understand how they are already blended together in alcohol, yet the fragrance transforms and blends and changes over time as the ingredients sit together longer.

    Does the fragrance really change or is it just me?

    7/24/13 at 11:59pm

    TheOnion said:



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by kamasView Post

    When you mix a few ingredients to make a perfume, how does the fragrance change over time?

    For example, if you add 5 different ingredients, Essential oils or aromachemicals, and mix them together and smell, you will have one fragrance.

    If you smell it 2 weeks later, that same blend will smell very different!

    How is this possible? Why does it happen? What is going on?

    I cannot seem to understand how they are already blended together in alcohol, yet the fragrance transforms and blends and changes over time as the ingredients sit together longer.

    Does the fragrance really change or is it just me?

    It's an extremely well-known phenomenon. Before actually trying the perfume making, just making up the plans, I though "oh, that's for the pros. The difference will be so small I won't notice". I was dead wrong, fascinated and got instantly hooked since there was so much more to it than expected.

    Alcohol is not inert. Alcohol reacts with the scent molecyles creating new scent molecules. I suppose there could also be other molecules in the oils which don't in themselves smell much, but then react with the alcohol and possibly also with other components in the mix.

    The little info I've found on what's actually going on is that esters are formed. Carboxylic acid plus alcohol yields esters, as we learned in highschool chemistry. Do we have plenty of carboxylic acids floating around in essential oils? I have no clue.

    And then there's the interesting thing that when several essential oils are combined, the mix will mature and change too. The individual scent molecules must somehow react with each other.

    What does really happen chemically? There must be plenty of reactions going on - in organic chemistry you typically can let two substances react and as a result get a mix, not just one molecule. That much I remember. But there must be common "themes"; kinds of reactions. Does anyone know? Can someone recommend reading? I must admit I probably won't go and buy books on the topic tomorrow. I'm a student and have to spend money on other books. But suggestions for the future would be great. I don't suppose I don't really need that info, I'm just curious...

    BTW. Does this "maturation" of a scent have a specific name?

    7/25/13 at 12:26am

    kamas said:



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TheOnionView Post

    Alcohol reacts with the scent molecyles creating new scent molecules. I suppose there could also be other molecules in the oils which don't in themselves smell much, but then react with the alcohol and possibly also with other components in the mix.

    In other words , you think that the alcohol mixes with the aromachemicals/scent molecules in the fragrance, and create new aromachemicals?

    So, if you did an experiment like this:

    1) Take the raw ingredients and put them through a GC test, (take 1 gram of 5 aromachemicals individually, in individual containers.)

    2) After mixing ingrediends in equal amounts, put them thru a GC test (take 1 gram of 5 aromachemicals, but this time mix them together in the same container)

    EDITED TO ADD: In part 2, only run half of it through the GC, then 3 months later, run the other half.

    If you used the same exact amount and concentration of aromachemicals in each test, then will your end results of the GC test be the same? Since they are all the same ingredients in equal amounts, it seems like it should be the same. However, you are saying they will be different?

    Since the smell is different to us, it seems that if you did this test, you might get different results the way you explained. Does anyone know?

    Will you get different results that demonstrates new aromachemicals being created in experiment #2 above?


    Edited by kamas - 7/25/13 at 12:56am

    7/25/13 at 12:40am

    TheOnion said:



    You left an important factor out. Time. The relevant experiment would be to make a mix and run half of it through the gas cromatograph and then three months later, run the second half.


    Edited by TheOnion - 7/25/13 at 12:52am

    7/25/13 at 12:57am

    kamas said:



    Yes you are correct about that. I just edited it to add that part.

    8/1/13 at 4:32pm

    kamas said:



    Does anyone here know the answers about these things?

    8/1/13 at 8:53pm

    pkiler said:



    I need to answer quickly, but really you should do your own reading, and research to understand this better for yourself.

    As said, "Maturation" is the time consuming part of constructing a fragrance. If you construct a fragrance with pretty and bright aldehydes, and get it just right in a couple of hours, a week later, it will seem so very flat, as compard to what you intended at the time. This is the part of the maturation, blending, chemical interdependancies and co-mingling interactions.

    In time, blends will smooooooth out.

    Live with it, and enjoy the passage of time. The practice of Perfumery is a contemplative discipline. Either live with it, or leave it.

    Over time, some fragrance constituents do in fact react with the alcohol, and form secondary and tertiary chemicals. GC-MS'ing a fragrance that is vintage will show a different gc result from a current production frag, even if the constructive formula is the same, due to this time-process.

    Aldehydes react with ethyl and methyl anthranilate and change into different molcules, this can happen at room temp over the course of a month or a few months. It is hurried if the two chemicals are blended and stirred with heat to intentionally make them into a third chemical. These are called Schiff bases.

    This is Chemistry. Fragrance Chemistry.

    I suggest that you start researching this subject and spend many hours figuring this out for yourself.

    8/1/13 at 9:15pm

    kamas said:



    Thanks Pkiler, Do you know any readings or books that I can find and read more about it?

    8/2/13 at 3:06am

    jsparla said:



    You could start with this one, that should be in each serious novice perfumer's library:http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Perfumery-Tony-Curtis/dp/096087528X

    8/2/13 at 1:52pm

    pkiler said:



    Yes, In addition to the Curtis Book, These are both excellent and not so very expensive...

    The Chemistry of Fragrances: From Perfumer to Consumer (RSC Paperbacks)[Hardcover]

    Charles S Sell

    Price: $34.17

    Scent and Chemistry : The Molecular World of Odors

    Book





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