Fixatives withough much of a scent in themselves

    Fixatives withough much of a scent in themselves

    post #1 of 8
    Thread Starter 

    I do realise this is not the way professionals go about it, but I'm a happy hobbyist playing with what comes up in my mind and liking experiments. Here we go:

     

    If I want to make a scent last longer without changing it, at least not changing it much. What can I put in it?

     

    Glycerine has been mentioned as a fixative but plenty of people seem to dismiss it. Someone mentioned it works for the fragrance molecules on the water soluble side, but not the rest. 

    Isopropyl myristate is mentioned as a fixative on Wikipedia and on other places, but you don't discuss it much on this forum so I guess not many of you are using it. 

    What else? Propylene glycol, dipropylene glycol...?

     

    In an old thread someone mentioned that old perfumes sometimes might contain a little castor oil. I suppose the amount needs to be very tiny, but if the general idea is big molecules a guess a small amount of fat could do the trick. It sounds right to me. I guess no water should be added (and none of my home made tinctures that probably have been diluted by water from the plants) or the oil will quickly separate. 

     

    Other ideas? 

    post #2 of 8

    If you can get them, methyl hydrogenated rosinate and methyl abietate are meant to be excellent fixatives with low odor. They're manufactured from pine rosin, which is also sometimes used as a fixative.

    post #3 of 8

    I just changed the IPM Entry for Wikipedia, we'll see if it sticks...

     

    There are plenty of fixative effect materials, because there are plenty of large molecule materials.  Not all have not odor, but many are very low odor.

     

    DPG, PG, IPM, TEC, are all solvents, and not fixatives.

     

    You should look at the contents of your juice and make a decision about the direction of the bottom, and use a suitable material that compliments what you have already used.  Some could be Pemou Root EO (Liberty Natural), sorry, got to run, but other large slow moving thick materials, and any synthetic or processsed material that is powdered would be long lasting.


    Edited by pkiler - 7/28/13 at 10:45am
    post #4 of 8
    Thread Starter 

    Oh, you consider it downright wrong to mension IPM as a fixative at all. Interesting. Thank you - and great initiative to improve Wikipedia entry. Since what you removed from Wikipedia didn't have a source there should be no problem, I guess. You accidently removed an info box but that has been restored by someone else. 

     

    Glycerine isn't that large a molecule, OK not really small either but smaller than dipropylene glycol, and from a chemical point of view they are slightly similar in being alcohols. The views on glycerine as a fixative here seems to differ. Some says it's not a fixative, others seem to think so although of limited use. 

     


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by pkiler View Post

     

    You should look at the contents of your juice and make a decision about the direction of the bottom, and use a suitable material that compliments with you already have used.  Some could be Pemou Root EO (Liberty Natural), sorry, got to run, but other large slow moving thick materials, and any synthetic or prcesssed material that is powdered would be long lasting.

     

    Your first sentence here I'm afraid is Greek to me. "Direction of the bottom"? Something suitable that compliments - chemically how? If you are discussing actual scent here, i.e. choosing a fixative that fits in your scent, then I'm with you. If so. you are advising me to use the "standard method" - I am dabbling with it, sure. I'm just pondering on alternatives. 

     

    The possibility of using castor oil was mentioned here, by drk

    http://www.basenotes.net/t/158383/how-much-glycerin

    Regarding the smell of castor oil, most vegetable oils can be bought in more refined, odourless versions too. We'll see where it all lands. 

    post #5 of 8

    Yes, Sorry, I was in a hurry to answer and then leave...

     

    Yes, you are right, "discussing actual scent here, i.e. choosing a fixative that fits in your scent, then I'm with you."

     

    I've been reading patents and research papers trying to find large molecules as fixatives, Cetyl Alcohol came up, (that I've since looked back up subsequent to this conversation), and then I remember a Kodak Large Molecule Patent about something else that escapes me now.

     

    Using Glycerin seems to have come mostly from repeated Youtube videos of yahoos saying that Glycerin is a fixative for perfumery...

     

    Some other fixatives that I've used are powdered resins like Frankincense tears powdered and placed into the juice, same with Mastic resin powdered, Galbanum, Sandarac,  all manner of resins powdered can be used.  Some even dissolve fully into alcohol, some others only partially, so should be processed first before adding directly into your concentrate.

     

    Offhand though, I'd really stay away from fixed and vegetable oils, like Castor oil, and the like, since they can go rancid.

    post #6 of 8

    Fat wouldn't dissolve in alcohol well either and you'd have to add an emulsifier, which would turn the solution cloudy. As Paul said, various resins will work well. Some of them do have a strong odor of their own though. Pine rosin has had it's terpenes removed to produce turpentine, so it's relatively low odor. The hydrogenated rosins that I mentioned before are much more stable to oxidation, however and are less likely to cause skin irritation.

     

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9746183

     

    http://www.pinovasolutions.com/market/personal-care


    Edited by Pears - 7/28/13 at 3:03am
    post #7 of 8
    Thread Starter 

    If using oils we are talking small amounts. True. I guess that also holds for your other substances. 

     

    I do understand basic chemistry. 

    post #8 of 8
    Thread Starter 

    Castor oil don't easily go rancid. Of course eventually it will, but it's one of the better vegetable oils in that respect - which might be why it has been used, to some extent. If it has.´Possibly jojoba oil would be a more modern counterpart. I do completely understand that you will stay away from it, pkiler. It's probably not a good idea for a real perfumer of today, just like the big cosmetic companies all use mainly mineral oil in lotions since it won't go rancid. When you make your own stuff you are free to ignore that aspect, throw stuff away when it's old and make a new batch. I'm not sure how much of the rancidity problem will appear in 95% alcohol though. In my mind it's well worth an experiment.

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    7/25/13 at 12:51am

    TheOnion said:



    I do realise this is not the way professionals go about it, but I'm a happy hobbyist playing with what comes up in my mind and liking experiments. Here we go:

     

    If I want to make a scent last longer without changing it, at least not changing it much. What can I put in it?

     

    Glycerine has been mentioned as a fixative but plenty of people seem to dismiss it. Someone mentioned it works for the fragrance molecules on the water soluble side, but not the rest. 

    Isopropyl myristate is mentioned as a fixative on Wikipedia and on other places, but you don't discuss it much on this forum so I guess not many of you are using it. 

    What else? Propylene glycol, dipropylene glycol...?

     

    In an old thread someone mentioned that old perfumes sometimes might contain a little castor oil. I suppose the amount needs to be very tiny, but if the general idea is big molecules a guess a small amount of fat could do the trick. It sounds right to me. I guess no water should be added (and none of my home made tinctures that probably have been diluted by water from the plants) or the oil will quickly separate. 

     

    Other ideas? 

    7/25/13 at 4:02am

    Pears said:



    If you can get them, methyl hydrogenated rosinate and methyl abietate are meant to be excellent fixatives with low odor. They're manufactured from pine rosin, which is also sometimes used as a fixative.

    7/25/13 at 11:37pm

    pkiler said:



    I just changed the IPM Entry for Wikipedia, we'll see if it sticks...

     

    There are plenty of fixative effect materials, because there are plenty of large molecule materials.  Not all have not odor, but many are very low odor.

     

    DPG, PG, IPM, TEC, are all solvents, and not fixatives.

     

    You should look at the contents of your juice and make a decision about the direction of the bottom, and use a suitable material that compliments what you have already used.  Some could be Pemou Root EO (Liberty Natural), sorry, got to run, but other large slow moving thick materials, and any synthetic or processsed material that is powdered would be long lasting.


    Edited by pkiler - 7/28/13 at 10:45am

    7/27/13 at 10:57pm

    TheOnion said:



    Oh, you consider it downright wrong to mension IPM as a fixative at all. Interesting. Thank you - and great initiative to improve Wikipedia entry. Since what you removed from Wikipedia didn't have a source there should be no problem, I guess. You accidently removed an info box but that has been restored by someone else. 

     

    Glycerine isn't that large a molecule, OK not really small either but smaller than dipropylene glycol, and from a chemical point of view they are slightly similar in being alcohols. The views on glycerine as a fixative here seems to differ. Some says it's not a fixative, others seem to think so although of limited use. 

     


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by pkiler View Post

     

    You should look at the contents of your juice and make a decision about the direction of the bottom, and use a suitable material that compliments with you already have used.  Some could be Pemou Root EO (Liberty Natural), sorry, got to run, but other large slow moving thick materials, and any synthetic or prcesssed material that is powdered would be long lasting.

     

    Your first sentence here I'm afraid is Greek to me. "Direction of the bottom"? Something suitable that compliments - chemically how? If you are discussing actual scent here, i.e. choosing a fixative that fits in your scent, then I'm with you. If so. you are advising me to use the "standard method" - I am dabbling with it, sure. I'm just pondering on alternatives. 

     

    The possibility of using castor oil was mentioned here, by drk

    http://www.basenotes.net/t/158383/how-much-glycerin

    Regarding the smell of castor oil, most vegetable oils can be bought in more refined, odourless versions too. We'll see where it all lands. 

    7/28/13 at 12:27am

    pkiler said:



    Yes, Sorry, I was in a hurry to answer and then leave...

     

    Yes, you are right, "discussing actual scent here, i.e. choosing a fixative that fits in your scent, then I'm with you."

     

    I've been reading patents and research papers trying to find large molecules as fixatives, Cetyl Alcohol came up, (that I've since looked back up subsequent to this conversation), and then I remember a Kodak Large Molecule Patent about something else that escapes me now.

     

    Using Glycerin seems to have come mostly from repeated Youtube videos of yahoos saying that Glycerin is a fixative for perfumery...

     

    Some other fixatives that I've used are powdered resins like Frankincense tears powdered and placed into the juice, same with Mastic resin powdered, Galbanum, Sandarac,  all manner of resins powdered can be used.  Some even dissolve fully into alcohol, some others only partially, so should be processed first before adding directly into your concentrate.

     

    Offhand though, I'd really stay away from fixed and vegetable oils, like Castor oil, and the like, since they can go rancid.

    7/28/13 at 2:43am

    Pears said:



    Fat wouldn't dissolve in alcohol well either and you'd have to add an emulsifier, which would turn the solution cloudy. As Paul said, various resins will work well. Some of them do have a strong odor of their own though. Pine rosin has had it's terpenes removed to produce turpentine, so it's relatively low odor. The hydrogenated rosins that I mentioned before are much more stable to oxidation, however and are less likely to cause skin irritation.

     

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9746183

     

    http://www.pinovasolutions.com/market/personal-care


    Edited by Pears - 7/28/13 at 3:03am

    7/28/13 at 3:52am

    TheOnion said:



    If using oils we are talking small amounts. True. I guess that also holds for your other substances. 

     

    I do understand basic chemistry. 

    7/28/13 at 4:05am

    TheOnion said:



    Castor oil don't easily go rancid. Of course eventually it will, but it's one of the better vegetable oils in that respect - which might be why it has been used, to some extent. If it has.´Possibly jojoba oil would be a more modern counterpart. I do completely understand that you will stay away from it, pkiler. It's probably not a good idea for a real perfumer of today, just like the big cosmetic companies all use mainly mineral oil in lotions since it won't go rancid. When you make your own stuff you are free to ignore that aspect, throw stuff away when it's old and make a new batch. I'm not sure how much of the rancidity problem will appear in 95% alcohol though. In my mind it's well worth an experiment.





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