New to the cologne industry, but not to business

    New to the cologne industry, but not to business  

    post #1 of 47
    Thread Starter 

    We're looking to replicate 10-20 colognes to remarket. Not interested so much in the "similar to" thing as much as the basenotes themselves can be niche marketed.

    I have some question for DIYs that do this as a business

    • Is it standard procedure to be given a recipe for mass production?
    • At what point do economies of scale really start to kick in? Meaning, at what point do your costs start to drastically go down?
    • What's a fair setup price to duplicate most colognes?
    • What a fairly standard per bottle (3.4oz) price for colognes?

    Feel free to solicit, those that are in the business!

    post #2 of 47
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by CarnutView Post

    We're looking to replicate 10-20 colognes to remarket. Not interested so much in the "similar to" thing as much as the basenotes themselves can be niche marketed.

    I have some question for DIYs that do this as a business

    • Is it standard procedure to be given a recipe for mass production?
    • At what point do economies of scale really start to kick in? Meaning, at what point do your costs start to drastically go down?
    • What's a fair setup price to duplicate most colognes?
    • What a fairly standard per bottle (3.4oz) price for colognes?

    Feel free to solicit, those that are in the business!

    No, I don't believe it is standard to receive the Formula, (don't call it a recipe) but receiving the formula can be negotiated often for a larger fee.

    Scale cost to profit ratios improve when more materials are bought of the same type. This works well for very simple formulations, because you have fewer ingredients. More complex formulations take fewer ingredients that must be bought for a higher price per kilo of stock. And often scale works for you when you use the same bottle, or bottle and cap, and order a MOQ if 5000 bottles/caps.

    This information is relevant to your business plan, is fungible, and you should do your own investigations and calculations to ensure that the desired profit target is reached before launching this venture.

    Exact duplication can get expensive. Merely close duplication is cheaper. But everything will start with a test, to give a base to work from.

    There is no standard price for 100ml colognes. Your marketing / target market will dicate where you fall on the continuum, also based on what you are trying to clone.


    Edited by pkiler - 8/29/13 at 1:40pm
    post #3 of 47
    Thread Starter 
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by pkilerView Post

    No, I don't believe it is standard to receive the Formula, (don't call it a recipe) but receiving the formula can be negotiated often for a larger fee.

    Scale cost to profit ratios improve when more materials are bought of the same type. This works well for very simple formulations, because you have fewer ingredients. More complex formulations take fewer ingredients that must be bought for a higher price per kilo of stock. Sna dhten scale works for you when you use the same bottle, or bottle and cap, and order a MOQ if 5000 bottles/caps.

    This information is relevant to your business plan, is fungible, and you should do your own investigations and calculations to ensure that the desired profit target is reached before launching this venture.

    Exact duplication can get expensive. Merely close duplication is cheaper. But everything will start with a test, to give a base to work from.

    There is no standard price for 100ml colognes. Your marketing / target market will dicate where you fall on the continuum, also based on what you are trying to clone.



    We're only looking to get close. We're not interested in "compare to" and the like. I'm going to be sourcing my own glass, caps & boxes, so I really just need to find someone to create the formulas and in the short run buy the formula through them. If I was ever lucky enough to score a large retail account, then it would need to be outsourced to a fashion house or just straight to China, depending on volume and price targets.

    I appreciate the information supplied, very detailed. Is there a forum where industry professionals commonly associate? I'd really like to bid this project out ;) I'm ready to roll, all I need to do is find someone motivated, talented and willing to do business on our terms. A quick search does reveal that standard terms is to with hold the formula (but not to sell to anyone else).

    So I guess what I'm more or less looking for is a formulator to contract.

    post #4 of 47

    I know of a company that is quite capable of doing what you require, though I'm not sure if there are any basenotes rules about posting their link.

    If no one here is interested or objects I'll post the link in a day or so.

    -

    post #5 of 47
    Thread Starter 

    Unless this forum is very different than others, PM is always allowed. It's the open advertisement of non-sponsors that is generally frowned upon.

    post #6 of 47

    I think that people are supposed to pm, rather than post links, other than for the materials suppliers & info type stuff.

    post #7 of 47

    Righto...

    -

    post #8 of 47

    Hi Carnut

    My names Adam Michael and I have just read this. You sound like a nice person and I dont want you to get eaten by sharks, so my advice based on the questions is keep your money and do not give up your day job. For you I think this is business suicide and you may as well spend all your money on a horse race or at the casino as you have a better chance of making a return.

    You mention 10-20 products at start and to me that suggests you are over excited and all over the place in your thinking straightaway. Most perfumers Im aware of learn there craft over years and years, they take there time. For me at least this also makes them and the product more credible and appealing. Business is not just numbers, that mindset is completely wrong in my opinion and its why so many in this arena balls up in spectactular fashion. You should work your business from the product up not the other way round in this instance. And here lyes the probem, by your own admission you know squat about the product yet you class yourself as knowing a fair bit about business.

    Best advice is this. If you are a good businessman and have deep pockets and can sell snow to an eskimo then get to know those within the artisan scene first. Whilst you are doing this research the market and see how saturated it is for yourself. If you still really want this then look to bring to market one product with the help of your artisan perfumer. If you get this right and are able to keep costs in check and generate a profit in your first year of trade then look at launching a second and even a third fragrance six months into your second year of trade. Simply take your time, get serious and be thorough.

    Good luck, Adam

    post #9 of 47

    Thanks, Adam.

    post #10 of 47

    As for other forums, there are always the industry forums from LinkedIn.

    You'd certainly have many other people that could be interested, if you post this type of request, you'll likely get quite inundated from all over the world.

    I think part of it depends upon your budget, and where you live.

    Cheaper budget might mean you could work with me or someone freelance like me. ( and if you work in the USA)

    With more of a budget, you can work with a myriad of flavor/fragrance houses all over the world, dependant upon your location.

    Also dependant is what you want back. For instance, I'm working for another fragrance house that has submitted briefs to the big boys in New Jersey and NYC, and gotten back scents that didn't wow them. So now they're trying me on for size to see what I can come up with. They were looking for something original and interesting, not copycats however.

    Your venture may undergo a similar circuitous route, but maybe not.

    Best to you...

    post #11 of 47
    Thread Starter 
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Hermitage OilsView Post

    My names Adam Michael and I have just read this. You sound like a nice person and I dont want you to get eaten by sharks, so my advice based on the questions is keep your money and do not give up your day job. For you I think this is business suicide and you may as well spend all your money on a horse race or at the casino as you have a better chance of making a return.

    You mention 10-20 products at start and to me that suggests you are over excited and all over the place in your thinking straightaway. Most perfumers Im aware of learn there craft over years and years, they take there time. For me at least this also makes them and the product more credible and appealing. Business is not just numbers, that mindset is completely wrong in my opinion and its why so many in this arena balls up in spectactular fashion. You should work your business from the product up not the other way round in this instance. And here lyes the probem, by your own admission you know squat about the product yet you class yourself as knowing a fair bit about business.

    Best advice is this. If you are a good businessman and have deep pockets and can sell snow to an eskimo then get to know those within the artisan scene first. Whilst you are doing this research the market and see how saturated it is for yourself. If you still really want this then look to bring to market one product with the help of your artisan perfumer. If you get this right and are able to keep costs in check and generate a profit in your first year of trade then look at launching a second and even a third fragrance six months into your second year of trade. Simply take your time, get serious and be thorough.

    Good luck, Adam

    Thanks Adam. For reference, my business grosses 7 figures currently. So not big, but certainly not small. I understand the economics of this stuff well, and this is not something I plan on becoming "the next big thing." I expect pretty standard 30% margins. I'm marketing this to an existing client base of 100,000 customers. My customers are in a different industry, but part of it is to increase the company image.

    I'm aware of the risks involved and have launched over 300 products in my 8 years in business.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by pkilerView Post

    As for other forums, there are always the industry forums from LinkedIn.

    You'd certainly have many other people that could be interested, if you post this type of request, you'll likely get quite inundated from all over the world.

    I think part of it depends upon your budget, and where you live.

    Cheaper budget might mean you could work with me or someone freelance like me. ( and if you work in the USA)

    With more of a budget, you can work with a myriad of flavor/fragrance houses all over the world, dependant upon your location.

    Also dependant is what you want back. For instance, I'm working for another fragrance house that has submitted briefs to the big boys in New Jersey and NYC, and gotten back scents that didn't wow them. So now they're trying me on for size to see what I can come up with. They were looking for something original and interesting, not copycats however.

    Your venture may undergo a similar circuitous route, but maybe not.

    Best to you...

    Your client's experience is not unlike ones I've had within my industry. What I've noticed is that large companies are often not more skilled than anyone else so much in development so much as they have massive economies of scale. Adidas could bottle urine and they'd still sell more than I ever will.

    There are of course exceptions to this rule, in industries that require top talent. Biomedical, technical etc These fields are obviously dominated by firms that have the largest talent pools.

    post #12 of 47

    Carnut, I feel that we must also issue an apology to you, because we get people that come in here looking for a similar compatability search at least once a month. Most just blow hot air and dreams. So, we've become somewhat jaded, at yet another guy with big plans and talk...

    But it all begins with a conversation and a relationship, doesn't it?

    post #13 of 47
    Thread Starter 

    Don't get me wrong, I'm guilty of the same stuff myself. Couple months ago I was hot on a project that I thought would have about $12K in fixed costs which turns out was more like $60K. This was a much more complex project than this, but I even still vastly underestimated it.

    Honestly, I don't think this will be that "big" of a project. For my operation it'll be pocket change. But I can certainly understand for the average joe thinking he's going to break into this market, what you're saying is good advice no doubt. So I think your apology is unwarranted.

    I honestly will be satisfied if they move enough to cover costs and I have a 30% margin on the product in 6 months to a year. In the mean time I can hit the phones and see if any big boxes want to ramp it up. Conceptually I think I'm in a good area.


    Worst case scenario will be some product that will be stale for a while. Even so, I'd be happy to have my own scents. Business aside, there is some pride in stuff like this. Part of you being you. But business is a primary concern here. I didn't become successful by letting my heart make decisions.

    I will say this though. As a long time business owner, I've learned that telling people they shouldn't jump in head first is truly futile. I've had plenty of friends who don't understand the economics, the risk\reward ratios etc, who I've given serious tempered advice to who've always ignored it. Over the years I've learned to just ignore those conversations and end them quick. "Do you want my opinion, or do you want me to tell you you're right?"

    So I completely understand where you're coming from.

    post #14 of 47

    Carnut, in the space of a handful of posts you now run a business with a 7 figure turnover, although you dont state what currency. Next you have a 100K plus audience you can tap into on top of this you are going on about China and outsourcing.

    First of all Id ease up acting like a big shot, secondly you still have zero credibility. Third the people you now attract may now see you as nothing other than a meal ticket. I will repeat - take your time, get to know the scene, get to know the perfumers as people as well as for what they can create. You are absolutely miles away from what you aim to achieve and if you want to walk a long happy path stop making it about the money and dont spill your financial details on a public forum. how can you sell anything you dont understand. All very very basic schoolboy stuff and all likely exagerated as well as the turnover combined with amount of clients suggests you need to concentrate on what you have as your sales per customer are utterly woeful unless you are selling hot dogs. Remember turnover is vanity - profit is sanity....this is ultra basic stuff.

    Im now going to go and make myself a cup of hot chocolate with a drop of tia maria so Ill leave it at that. Adam

    post #15 of 47
    Thread Starter 

    I'm here to do business. And not acting like a big shot, but there's a difference between people that are running real businesses and people coming on here to fluff. I've made it very clear I'm here to do business.

    My post count, gross revenue etc are really irrelevant. I'm here to find the most reasonable way to outsource 10 formulas. I'm not here to make friends.

    By the way, I'm not even sure how doing a million in gross is considered acting like a big shot. That's what it takes to have a small business. You're a nobody until you're in 8 figures, and I'm not close.

    post #16 of 47

    What a complete berk you are Carnut saying you are a nobody until you are 8 figures. I can not beleive the arrogance.

    One day you will wake up and realise a mans worth is nothing to do with his or her bank balance. Anyway loosing will to live carnut as we are clearly very different people with very different ideas and values. Each to their own. Adam

    post #

    8/29/13 at 10:43am

    Carnut said:



    We're looking to replicate 10-20 colognes to remarket. Not interested so much in the "similar to" thing as much as the basenotes themselves can be niche marketed.

    I have some question for DIYs that do this as a business

    • Is it standard procedure to be given a recipe for mass production?
    • At what point do economies of scale really start to kick in? Meaning, at what point do your costs start to drastically go down?
    • What's a fair setup price to duplicate most colognes?
    • What a fairly standard per bottle (3.4oz) price for colognes?

    Feel free to solicit, those that are in the business!

    8/29/13 at 1:04pm

    pkiler said:



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by CarnutView Post

    We're looking to replicate 10-20 colognes to remarket. Not interested so much in the "similar to" thing as much as the basenotes themselves can be niche marketed.

    I have some question for DIYs that do this as a business

    • Is it standard procedure to be given a recipe for mass production?
    • At what point do economies of scale really start to kick in? Meaning, at what point do your costs start to drastically go down?
    • What's a fair setup price to duplicate most colognes?
    • What a fairly standard per bottle (3.4oz) price for colognes?

    Feel free to solicit, those that are in the business!

    No, I don't believe it is standard to receive the Formula, (don't call it a recipe) but receiving the formula can be negotiated often for a larger fee.

    Scale cost to profit ratios improve when more materials are bought of the same type. This works well for very simple formulations, because you have fewer ingredients. More complex formulations take fewer ingredients that must be bought for a higher price per kilo of stock. And often scale works for you when you use the same bottle, or bottle and cap, and order a MOQ if 5000 bottles/caps.

    This information is relevant to your business plan, is fungible, and you should do your own investigations and calculations to ensure that the desired profit target is reached before launching this venture.

    Exact duplication can get expensive. Merely close duplication is cheaper. But everything will start with a test, to give a base to work from.

    There is no standard price for 100ml colognes. Your marketing / target market will dicate where you fall on the continuum, also based on what you are trying to clone.


    Edited by pkiler - 8/29/13 at 1:40pm

    8/29/13 at 1:11pm

    Carnut said:



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by pkilerView Post

    No, I don't believe it is standard to receive the Formula, (don't call it a recipe) but receiving the formula can be negotiated often for a larger fee.

    Scale cost to profit ratios improve when more materials are bought of the same type. This works well for very simple formulations, because you have fewer ingredients. More complex formulations take fewer ingredients that must be bought for a higher price per kilo of stock. Sna dhten scale works for you when you use the same bottle, or bottle and cap, and order a MOQ if 5000 bottles/caps.

    This information is relevant to your business plan, is fungible, and you should do your own investigations and calculations to ensure that the desired profit target is reached before launching this venture.

    Exact duplication can get expensive. Merely close duplication is cheaper. But everything will start with a test, to give a base to work from.

    There is no standard price for 100ml colognes. Your marketing / target market will dicate where you fall on the continuum, also based on what you are trying to clone.



    We're only looking to get close. We're not interested in "compare to" and the like. I'm going to be sourcing my own glass, caps & boxes, so I really just need to find someone to create the formulas and in the short run buy the formula through them. If I was ever lucky enough to score a large retail account, then it would need to be outsourced to a fashion house or just straight to China, depending on volume and price targets.

    I appreciate the information supplied, very detailed. Is there a forum where industry professionals commonly associate? I'd really like to bid this project out ;) I'm ready to roll, all I need to do is find someone motivated, talented and willing to do business on our terms. A quick search does reveal that standard terms is to with hold the formula (but not to sell to anyone else).

    So I guess what I'm more or less looking for is a formulator to contract.

    8/29/13 at 1:11pm

    Skelly said:



    I know of a company that is quite capable of doing what you require, though I'm not sure if there are any basenotes rules about posting their link.

    If no one here is interested or objects I'll post the link in a day or so.

    -

    8/29/13 at 1:20pm

    Carnut said:



    Unless this forum is very different than others, PM is always allowed. It's the open advertisement of non-sponsors that is generally frowned upon.

    8/29/13 at 1:23pm

    lpp said:



    I think that people are supposed to pm, rather than post links, other than for the materials suppliers & info type stuff.

    8/29/13 at 1:37pm

    Skelly said:



    Righto...

    -

    8/29/13 at 1:42pm

    Hermitage Oils said:



    Hi Carnut

    My names Adam Michael and I have just read this. You sound like a nice person and I dont want you to get eaten by sharks, so my advice based on the questions is keep your money and do not give up your day job. For you I think this is business suicide and you may as well spend all your money on a horse race or at the casino as you have a better chance of making a return.

    You mention 10-20 products at start and to me that suggests you are over excited and all over the place in your thinking straightaway. Most perfumers Im aware of learn there craft over years and years, they take there time. For me at least this also makes them and the product more credible and appealing. Business is not just numbers, that mindset is completely wrong in my opinion and its why so many in this arena balls up in spectactular fashion. You should work your business from the product up not the other way round in this instance. And here lyes the probem, by your own admission you know squat about the product yet you class yourself as knowing a fair bit about business.

    Best advice is this. If you are a good businessman and have deep pockets and can sell snow to an eskimo then get to know those within the artisan scene first. Whilst you are doing this research the market and see how saturated it is for yourself. If you still really want this then look to bring to market one product with the help of your artisan perfumer. If you get this right and are able to keep costs in check and generate a profit in your first year of trade then look at launching a second and even a third fragrance six months into your second year of trade. Simply take your time, get serious and be thorough.

    Good luck, Adam

    8/29/13 at 1:43pm

    lpp said:



    Thanks, Adam.

    8/29/13 at 1:48pm

    pkiler said:



    As for other forums, there are always the industry forums from LinkedIn.

    You'd certainly have many other people that could be interested, if you post this type of request, you'll likely get quite inundated from all over the world.

    I think part of it depends upon your budget, and where you live.

    Cheaper budget might mean you could work with me or someone freelance like me. ( and if you work in the USA)

    With more of a budget, you can work with a myriad of flavor/fragrance houses all over the world, dependant upon your location.

    Also dependant is what you want back. For instance, I'm working for another fragrance house that has submitted briefs to the big boys in New Jersey and NYC, and gotten back scents that didn't wow them. So now they're trying me on for size to see what I can come up with. They were looking for something original and interesting, not copycats however.

    Your venture may undergo a similar circuitous route, but maybe not.

    Best to you...

    8/29/13 at 2:32pm

    Carnut said:



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Hermitage OilsView Post

    My names Adam Michael and I have just read this. You sound like a nice person and I dont want you to get eaten by sharks, so my advice based on the questions is keep your money and do not give up your day job. For you I think this is business suicide and you may as well spend all your money on a horse race or at the casino as you have a better chance of making a return.

    You mention 10-20 products at start and to me that suggests you are over excited and all over the place in your thinking straightaway. Most perfumers Im aware of learn there craft over years and years, they take there time. For me at least this also makes them and the product more credible and appealing. Business is not just numbers, that mindset is completely wrong in my opinion and its why so many in this arena balls up in spectactular fashion. You should work your business from the product up not the other way round in this instance. And here lyes the probem, by your own admission you know squat about the product yet you class yourself as knowing a fair bit about business.

    Best advice is this. If you are a good businessman and have deep pockets and can sell snow to an eskimo then get to know those within the artisan scene first. Whilst you are doing this research the market and see how saturated it is for yourself. If you still really want this then look to bring to market one product with the help of your artisan perfumer. If you get this right and are able to keep costs in check and generate a profit in your first year of trade then look at launching a second and even a third fragrance six months into your second year of trade. Simply take your time, get serious and be thorough.

    Good luck, Adam

    Thanks Adam. For reference, my business grosses 7 figures currently. So not big, but certainly not small. I understand the economics of this stuff well, and this is not something I plan on becoming "the next big thing." I expect pretty standard 30% margins. I'm marketing this to an existing client base of 100,000 customers. My customers are in a different industry, but part of it is to increase the company image.

    I'm aware of the risks involved and have launched over 300 products in my 8 years in business.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by pkilerView Post

    As for other forums, there are always the industry forums from LinkedIn.

    You'd certainly have many other people that could be interested, if you post this type of request, you'll likely get quite inundated from all over the world.

    I think part of it depends upon your budget, and where you live.

    Cheaper budget might mean you could work with me or someone freelance like me. ( and if you work in the USA)

    With more of a budget, you can work with a myriad of flavor/fragrance houses all over the world, dependant upon your location.

    Also dependant is what you want back. For instance, I'm working for another fragrance house that has submitted briefs to the big boys in New Jersey and NYC, and gotten back scents that didn't wow them. So now they're trying me on for size to see what I can come up with. They were looking for something original and interesting, not copycats however.

    Your venture may undergo a similar circuitous route, but maybe not.

    Best to you...

    Your client's experience is not unlike ones I've had within my industry. What I've noticed is that large companies are often not more skilled than anyone else so much in development so much as they have massive economies of scale. Adidas could bottle urine and they'd still sell more than I ever will.

    There are of course exceptions to this rule, in industries that require top talent. Biomedical, technical etc These fields are obviously dominated by firms that have the largest talent pools.

    8/29/13 at 2:39pm

    pkiler said:



    Carnut, I feel that we must also issue an apology to you, because we get people that come in here looking for a similar compatability search at least once a month. Most just blow hot air and dreams. So, we've become somewhat jaded, at yet another guy with big plans and talk...

    But it all begins with a conversation and a relationship, doesn't it?

    8/29/13 at 2:51pm

    Carnut said:



    Don't get me wrong, I'm guilty of the same stuff myself. Couple months ago I was hot on a project that I thought would have about $12K in fixed costs which turns out was more like $60K. This was a much more complex project than this, but I even still vastly underestimated it.

    Honestly, I don't think this will be that "big" of a project. For my operation it'll be pocket change. But I can certainly understand for the average joe thinking he's going to break into this market, what you're saying is good advice no doubt. So I think your apology is unwarranted.

    I honestly will be satisfied if they move enough to cover costs and I have a 30% margin on the product in 6 months to a year. In the mean time I can hit the phones and see if any big boxes want to ramp it up. Conceptually I think I'm in a good area.


    Worst case scenario will be some product that will be stale for a while. Even so, I'd be happy to have my own scents. Business aside, there is some pride in stuff like this. Part of you being you. But business is a primary concern here. I didn't become successful by letting my heart make decisions.

    I will say this though. As a long time business owner, I've learned that telling people they shouldn't jump in head first is truly futile. I've had plenty of friends who don't understand the economics, the risk\reward ratios etc, who I've given serious tempered advice to who've always ignored it. Over the years I've learned to just ignore those conversations and end them quick. "Do you want my opinion, or do you want me to tell you you're right?"

    So I completely understand where you're coming from.

    8/29/13 at 4:16pm

    Hermitage Oils said:



    Carnut, in the space of a handful of posts you now run a business with a 7 figure turnover, although you dont state what currency. Next you have a 100K plus audience you can tap into on top of this you are going on about China and outsourcing.

    First of all Id ease up acting like a big shot, secondly you still have zero credibility. Third the people you now attract may now see you as nothing other than a meal ticket. I will repeat - take your time, get to know the scene, get to know the perfumers as people as well as for what they can create. You are absolutely miles away from what you aim to achieve and if you want to walk a long happy path stop making it about the money and dont spill your financial details on a public forum. how can you sell anything you dont understand. All very very basic schoolboy stuff and all likely exagerated as well as the turnover combined with amount of clients suggests you need to concentrate on what you have as your sales per customer are utterly woeful unless you are selling hot dogs. Remember turnover is vanity - profit is sanity....this is ultra basic stuff.

    Im now going to go and make myself a cup of hot chocolate with a drop of tia maria so Ill leave it at that. Adam

    8/29/13 at 4:27pm

    Carnut said:



    I'm here to do business. And not acting like a big shot, but there's a difference between people that are running real businesses and people coming on here to fluff. I've made it very clear I'm here to do business.

    My post count, gross revenue etc are really irrelevant. I'm here to find the most reasonable way to outsource 10 formulas. I'm not here to make friends.

    By the way, I'm not even sure how doing a million in gross is considered acting like a big shot. That's what it takes to have a small business. You're a nobody until you're in 8 figures, and I'm not close.

    8/29/13 at 4:51pm

    Hermitage Oils said:



    What a complete berk you are Carnut saying you are a nobody until you are 8 figures. I can not beleive the arrogance.

    One day you will wake up and realise a mans worth is nothing to do with his or her bank balance. Anyway loosing will to live carnut as we are clearly very different people with very different ideas and values. Each to their own. Adam





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