Alternatives (smell-alikes) to Belladonna oil.

    Alternatives (smell-alikes) to Belladonna oil.

    post #1 of 14
    Thread Starter 

    Hi all,

    I'm relatively new to the world of scent making, and I've been looking to create a scent similar to Fame for my mom as a gift, but better. However, one of the ingredients listed in the notes is Belladonna. Now, there are a couple reasons why I want to avoid using that.

    1. It's poisonous (or at least derived from a poisonous plant). I don't want to risk giving my mom something that could harm her in any way (skin rash or worse)

    2. I'm not a religious or superstitious person, but I don't fancy ordering from any websites associated with the occult, magick, satanic stuff, etc. It makes me feel uneasy.tongue.gif

    So, to you more advanced perfumers out there (or anybody with decent knowledge), what can you recommend as a safe alternative to Belladonna oil? Thanks in advance.

    post #2 of 14

    It seems doubtful that a belladonna oil would be made and although datura would be a close fragrance it would probably not be used either!

    Hopefully, someone who knows the fragrance in question will be able to help you, although they presumably used combinations of synthetic ingredients to create the 'note' that you refer to.

    post #3 of 14
    Thread Starter 

    Hi Ipp,

    Pleasure to meet you, and thank you for your replies to both my inquiries thus far. :)

    Anyway, there is Belladonna EO available on eBay. It does exist. However, as I said, I'd never buy it due to it being poisonous and associated with witchcraft. Datura sounded interesting until I looked it up on eBay and saw another witchcraft association. A bit more research showed it's also poisonous.

    I'm guessing the Belladonna in Fame is synthetic which means the scent is there, but the poison isn't. I heard it has an acrid scent. I did learn something interesting about it though. A chemical substance from the plant, atropine, is used in the pupil dilation portion of an eye exam.

    post #4 of 14

    The "notes" in perfumes are often imaginary, it doesn't mean that they contain any such substance. This is clearly the case here, since, as you point out, belladonna extract is poisonous in large doses. I actually grew belladonna once. It has nice small dark flowers which don't smell much, and makes deep purple berries whose seeds can contain a lot of the alkaloid. The plant itself doesn't smell much, so I don't think there's any particular odor associated with it - I guess it was mentioned because of its dark color and withcraft associations.

    I'm no perfumer, so I can't really detect the composition of Fame, but the two most notable ingredients to me were 1) the substance that looks dark for a few seconds then disappears, and 2) an unlisted fruity grape note (methyl anthranilate?), together with assorted other sweet notes.

    cacio

    post #5 of 14

    Thank you, cacio.

    Nice to meet you too, jwmmakerofmusic!

    Any oil of belladonna that is being sold will exist for purposes other than perfumery.

    It is related to tomato, the leaves/stems of which are fragrant.

    However, as has been explained, the 'belladonna note' will almost inevitably have been produced by synthetic means and may well be a case of 'imagery' in order to help to provide a marketing image of some sort and therefore will smell nothing like any individual ingredient, particularly of a natural nature.

    Someone may well know more - if I have a chance next time a shop is within reach, I'll have a sniff and see if it reminds me of any particular flowers from which oil is produced!

    cacio's advice is excellent.

    Good luck!

    post #6 of 14
    Thread Starter 

    @cacio, thank you for that information. Now I realise the purpose of the Belladonna flower (most likely a synthetic scent). Remember when Lady Gaga said she'd infuse semen and blood in her first perfume? While she obviously didn't do that (blech), she found something that smelled similar and sounded more marketable without infusing DNA. (I smelled my blood before when I had my top two wisdom teeth extracted and had to change the setting a few times.) This is my theory at any rate.

    @lpp, I never knew tomato leaves were fragrant. That may work, although may produce a slightly different scent. That's okay. Hobby perfumery is about experimentation after all. :)

    post #7 of 14

    jwmmakerofmusic - all I can say, having sampled this little gem is that I've honestly never tried anything resembling it before - oh - and it gives me a little hope ;)

    Maybe slightly rotting apricots with a touch of whatever gave that old-time sweet 'pear drops' the acrid aspect would be a good place to start!

    The subsequent Indian Oud sample has been overwhelmed, despite two thorough washes before application...

    Maybe your mother deserves an original composition?

    Good luck!

    post #8 of 14

    jwmmakerofmusic, are you sure that you are looking for exactly belladonna scent? I find it hard to believe what belladonna would be the main note. Even synthetic, I know the plant, and today try Fame. I don't want to disappoint you, but if you want make something good, don't believe official descriptions and notes. Read about perfume making and work with you nose... Belladonna - beautiful, attractiv part of legend, this dangerous plant fits nicely with Lady Gaga image and alchemical black perfume color. This is marketing.
    It seems to me that you're looking for Lilly of the valley, or Convallia. Another poisonous plant, substituted by synthetic aromachems, and I think this perfume really contain traces of it.
    In three words - very sweet heavy floral, more sweet than heavy. Light/sweet version of Alien or so. You need jasminum sambac, or/and if possible and you can find where you live - very similar to all perfume scent Motiya attar. In top I find traces of pink pepper, and very carefully, moderately I will use Palmarosa var. Motia if I want to create something like Fame. I am not a prof, and more familiar only with naturals. Maybe Syringa vulgaris CO2 can be useful. If you planning use synthetics, someone else here can help better. In Jean-Claude Elenna "Diary of a nose" i find "berry" suggestions: raspberry - fructone, beta ionone, frambinone. In Fame more likely that are something like blackberry, but some form, natural or no source of ionones you need anyway. For sweetness - vanilla or vanillin. Perfum not long-lasting, and If contain some musk, maybe it can be traces of Romandolide, but again, very small quantity. I think you know that perfumes contain many more ingredients than listed in promotional descriptions. You can't recreate Fame from a 5-7 published parts; yoou need dozens or hundreds. But - good luck!

    post #9 of 14

    I noticed a bit of blackberry too, initially, Ramute.

    post #10 of 14
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jwmmakerofmusicView Post
    Anyway, there is Belladonna EO available on eBay. It does exist.

    Where, show me a link, please, Can't find it.

    I challenge the validity and mere existence of a real Belladonna EO.

    "Belladonna" in fragrance is merely a term of hype and utter nonsense, just like the blood and semen nonsense, and just like the entire personna and career of this non-sensical peronality called Lady Gag-Me-with-a-spoon.

    What you seek does not exist.

    post #11 of 14
    Thread Starter 
    @pkiler, this is the belladonna oil. Also, you must be careful what you say about Gaga, because her swarm of dramatic hypocrites little monsters may have a hissy fit. grin.gif The truth hurts when someone tells them their "mother" is simply a pop star.

    @Ramute, wow! That's a lot of awesome information. Huge thanks. I'll be doing more reading as well.

    @lpp, I'm starting to think the same thing. Mom deserves an original scent. I'll find out what her favourite flowers and such are and work from their. Seems easier that way at any rate.

    Again, I'm glad to meet you all. Cheers.
    post #12 of 14

    @jwmakerofmusic - hope that your motherappreciates your efforts!

    post #13 of 14
    Ok, the listing never says it is an EO. Which it isn't.
    That's just for whack jobs, not for perfumery.
    post #14 of 14
    Thread Starter 
    @pkiler, lool.:grin:
    @lpp, I'm very sure she will. :)
    class="

    9/2/13 at 11:44am

    jwmmakerofmusic said:



    Hi all,

    I'm relatively new to the world of scent making, and I've been looking to create a scent similar to Fame for my mom as a gift, but better. However, one of the ingredients listed in the notes is Belladonna. Now, there are a couple reasons why I want to avoid using that.

    1. It's poisonous (or at least derived from a poisonous plant). I don't want to risk giving my mom something that could harm her in any way (skin rash or worse)

    2. I'm not a religious or superstitious person, but I don't fancy ordering from any websites associated with the occult, magick, satanic stuff, etc. It makes me feel uneasy.tongue.gif

    So, to you more advanced perfumers out there (or anybody with decent knowledge), what can you recommend as a safe alternative to Belladonna oil? Thanks in advance.

    9/2/13 at 3:27pm

    lpp said:



    It seems doubtful that a belladonna oil would be made and although datura would be a close fragrance it would probably not be used either!

    Hopefully, someone who knows the fragrance in question will be able to help you, although they presumably used combinations of synthetic ingredients to create the 'note' that you refer to.

    9/2/13 at 8:34pm

    jwmmakerofmusic said:



    Hi Ipp,

    Pleasure to meet you, and thank you for your replies to both my inquiries thus far. :)

    Anyway, there is Belladonna EO available on eBay. It does exist. However, as I said, I'd never buy it due to it being poisonous and associated with witchcraft. Datura sounded interesting until I looked it up on eBay and saw another witchcraft association. A bit more research showed it's also poisonous.

    I'm guessing the Belladonna in Fame is synthetic which means the scent is there, but the poison isn't. I heard it has an acrid scent. I did learn something interesting about it though. A chemical substance from the plant, atropine, is used in the pupil dilation portion of an eye exam.

    9/2/13 at 8:59pm

    cacio said:



    The "notes" in perfumes are often imaginary, it doesn't mean that they contain any such substance. This is clearly the case here, since, as you point out, belladonna extract is poisonous in large doses. I actually grew belladonna once. It has nice small dark flowers which don't smell much, and makes deep purple berries whose seeds can contain a lot of the alkaloid. The plant itself doesn't smell much, so I don't think there's any particular odor associated with it - I guess it was mentioned because of its dark color and withcraft associations.

    I'm no perfumer, so I can't really detect the composition of Fame, but the two most notable ingredients to me were 1) the substance that looks dark for a few seconds then disappears, and 2) an unlisted fruity grape note (methyl anthranilate?), together with assorted other sweet notes.

    cacio

    9/3/13 at 1:17am

    lpp said:



    Thank you, cacio.

    Nice to meet you too, jwmmakerofmusic!

    Any oil of belladonna that is being sold will exist for purposes other than perfumery.

    It is related to tomato, the leaves/stems of which are fragrant.

    However, as has been explained, the 'belladonna note' will almost inevitably have been produced by synthetic means and may well be a case of 'imagery' in order to help to provide a marketing image of some sort and therefore will smell nothing like any individual ingredient, particularly of a natural nature.

    Someone may well know more - if I have a chance next time a shop is within reach, I'll have a sniff and see if it reminds me of any particular flowers from which oil is produced!

    cacio's advice is excellent.

    Good luck!

    9/3/13 at 9:52am

    jwmmakerofmusic said:



    @cacio, thank you for that information. Now I realise the purpose of the Belladonna flower (most likely a synthetic scent). Remember when Lady Gaga said she'd infuse semen and blood in her first perfume? While she obviously didn't do that (blech), she found something that smelled similar and sounded more marketable without infusing DNA. (I smelled my blood before when I had my top two wisdom teeth extracted and had to change the setting a few times.) This is my theory at any rate.

    @lpp, I never knew tomato leaves were fragrant. That may work, although may produce a slightly different scent. That's okay. Hobby perfumery is about experimentation after all. :)

    9/3/13 at 10:11am

    lpp said:



    jwmmakerofmusic - all I can say, having sampled this little gem is that I've honestly never tried anything resembling it before - oh - and it gives me a little hope ;)

    Maybe slightly rotting apricots with a touch of whatever gave that old-time sweet 'pear drops' the acrid aspect would be a good place to start!

    The subsequent Indian Oud sample has been overwhelmed, despite two thorough washes before application...

    Maybe your mother deserves an original composition?

    Good luck!

    9/3/13 at 11:34am

    Ramute said:



    jwmmakerofmusic, are you sure that you are looking for exactly belladonna scent? I find it hard to believe what belladonna would be the main note. Even synthetic, I know the plant, and today try Fame. I don't want to disappoint you, but if you want make something good, don't believe official descriptions and notes. Read about perfume making and work with you nose... Belladonna - beautiful, attractiv part of legend, this dangerous plant fits nicely with Lady Gaga image and alchemical black perfume color. This is marketing.
    It seems to me that you're looking for Lilly of the valley, or Convallia. Another poisonous plant, substituted by synthetic aromachems, and I think this perfume really contain traces of it.
    In three words - very sweet heavy floral, more sweet than heavy. Light/sweet version of Alien or so. You need jasminum sambac, or/and if possible and you can find where you live - very similar to all perfume scent Motiya attar. In top I find traces of pink pepper, and very carefully, moderately I will use Palmarosa var. Motia if I want to create something like Fame. I am not a prof, and more familiar only with naturals. Maybe Syringa vulgaris CO2 can be useful. If you planning use synthetics, someone else here can help better. In Jean-Claude Elenna "Diary of a nose" i find "berry" suggestions: raspberry - fructone, beta ionone, frambinone. In Fame more likely that are something like blackberry, but some form, natural or no source of ionones you need anyway. For sweetness - vanilla or vanillin. Perfum not long-lasting, and If contain some musk, maybe it can be traces of Romandolide, but again, very small quantity. I think you know that perfumes contain many more ingredients than listed in promotional descriptions. You can't recreate Fame from a 5-7 published parts; yoou need dozens or hundreds. But - good luck!

    9/3/13 at 12:54pm

    lpp said:



    I noticed a bit of blackberry too, initially, Ramute.

    9/3/13 at 4:13pm

    pkiler said:



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jwmmakerofmusicView Post
    Anyway, there is Belladonna EO available on eBay. It does exist.

    Where, show me a link, please, Can't find it.

    I challenge the validity and mere existence of a real Belladonna EO.

    "Belladonna" in fragrance is merely a term of hype and utter nonsense, just like the blood and semen nonsense, and just like the entire personna and career of this non-sensical peronality called Lady Gag-Me-with-a-spoon.

    What you seek does not exist.

    9/4/13 at 12:42am

    jwmmakerofmusic said:



    @pkiler, this is the belladonna oil. Also, you must be careful what you say about Gaga, because her swarm of dramatic hypocrites little monsters may have a hissy fit. grin.gif The truth hurts when someone tells them their "mother" is simply a pop star.

    @Ramute, wow! That's a lot of awesome information. Huge thanks. I'll be doing more reading as well.

    @lpp, I'm starting to think the same thing. Mom deserves an original scent. I'll find out what her favourite flowers and such are and work from their. Seems easier that way at any rate.

    Again, I'm glad to meet you all. Cheers.

    9/4/13 at 1:37am

    lpp said:



    @jwmakerofmusic - hope that your motherappreciates your efforts!

    9/4/13 at 6:16am

    pkiler said:



    Ok, the listing never says it is an EO. Which it isn't.
    That's just for whack jobs, not for perfumery.

    9/4/13 at 9:41am

    jwmmakerofmusic said:



    @pkiler, lool.:grin:
    @lpp, I'm very sure she will. :)





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