Dilute solid materials.

    Dilute solid materials.

    post #1 of 9
    Thread Starter 

    Hi All, 

     

    How do you dilute solid materials like calone or ethyl vanillin?

     

    Do I need a scale anyway? If I put fill 1/10 of the bottle with calone and 9/10 ethanol, would that be a 10% solution or I have to weight it?

     

    Also how u work with real resins? How do u calculate the concentration of the tincture?

    post #2 of 9

    I'm afraid you certainly need a scale.  I've given some advice both on buying scales and how to go about making dilutions on my blog, which you may find helps.

    post #3 of 9
    Thread Starter 

    Hi Chris, 

     

    Yesterday I was lucky to see a friend of mine that teaches biochemistry, and I asked him about the solutions.

     

    The thing is more complicated than it looks. 

    I also have read your blog.

     

    He explained me that when saying 10% solution may mean three different things.

     

    It may mean 10% w/v (weight to volume)

                         10% v/v (volume to volume)

                or      10% w/w (weight to weight)

     

    All of the above can be of totally different in potency!! 

    So a solution should be declared apart from its percentage to its type as well. 

     

    This is very important for us, as a solution 1%w/v of ethyl vanillin is more potent than a 1%solution v/v.

     

    This information is very important  to correctly recreate a formula, and I haven't really see this information in the bottles of the retailers we buy raw materials.

     

    My intuition says that the perfumery industry works with w/w solutions but I don't really now. 

     

    Chris in your example with 2.5grams of EO in 25 grams ethanol, the solution you get is not 10%, 

    as the analogy is 1:10 and not 1:9. So it is slightly weaker than 10%.

     

    If anyone has the information what type of solutions the industry is using that will be really helpful. 

     

    I guess this information would be on any bottle of Givaudan, but as an amateur I have never bought from Givaudan directly. 

    post #4 of 9
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by nicok View Post
     

    Hi Chris, 

     

    Yesterday I was lucky to see a friend of mine that teaches biochemistry, and I asked him about the solutions.

     

    The thing is more complicated than it looks. 

    I also have read your blog.

     

    He explained me that when saying 10% solution may mean three different things.

     

    It may mean 10% w/v (weight to volume)

                         10% v/v (volume to volume)

                or      10% w/w (weight to weight)

     

    All of the above can be of totally different in potency!! 

    So a solution should be declared apart from its percentage to its type as well. 

     

    This is very important for us, as a solution 1%w/v of ethyl vanillin is more potent than a 1%solution v/v.

     

    This information is very important  to correctly recreate a formula, and I haven't really see this information in the bottles of the retailers we buy raw materials.

     

    My intuition says that the perfumery industry works with w/w solutions but I don't really now. 

     

    Chris in your example with 2.5grams of EO in 25 grams ethanol, the solution you get is not 10%, 

    as the analogy is 1:10 and not 1:9. So it is slightly weaker than 10%.

     

    If anyone has the information what type of solutions the industry is using that will be really helpful. 

     

    I guess this information would be on any bottle of Givaudan, but as an amateur I have never bought from Givaudan directly. 

     

     

    Why is it that some people who are knowledgeable about something seem to take delight in making it seem even more difficult than it is to those who know less?  This, it seems to me, is the inverse of what teaching is about.

     

    However, I digress, first I suggest you need to go back to my blog and read it again because all the answers you are looking for are there.  For example if you follow the first link, the third paragraph says:

     

    Quote:
    The industry as a whole tends to work by weight, so if you buy pre-diluted materials they will most likely be diluted on a weight for weight (w/w) basis.  Also all the IFRA regulations that you will need to comply with if you wish to sell your fragrances are expressed in terms of w/w proportions.

    I don't think there is anything much to add to that, except that v/v is widely used in the food industry but w/v is a peculiarity of research chemists best forgotten about by everyone else.

     

    Now as to that 2.5g and 25g, again you need to re-read it.  I have given a detailed method to follow which gives you 2.5g of material in 25g of solution - 10% by weight - I have not said that you can add 25g of ethanol to 2.5g of EO, thus ending up with 27.5g of solution at roughly 9%.

     

    Here is the paragraph in question:

     

    Quote:
    So, to get a 10% solution of your essential oils you first put the 30ml bottle it's going into on the scales (or balance if you prefer) and tare it (so that the display shows 0 with the empty bottle on), then add 2.5grams of your essential oil -don't tare again - top up to 25 grams with ethanol and hey presto! If you find you've put in a little under the 2.5 grams, adjust the amount of ethanol such that you end up with exactly 10 times as much in total, keeping in mind that the bottle will be full at about 25 grams or so, so you don’t want to put in too much of the oil you are diluting.

     

    Notice the double emphasised instruction not to tare after adding the EO and the link to Wikipedia in case the term tare might be unfamiliar.

     

    If I've time later on I'll post a couple of pictures taken of bottles and drums from the major manufacturers as I dare say a few people might be curious to know what they look like, but I'm afraid they are not informative on this particular question. 

    post #5 of 9
    Thread Starter 

    Thanks so much Chris. 

     

    I'll switch to w/w solutions then, so I'll have correct formulas. 

     

    It will be very nice if you could post any photos of the original bottles of the large companies. 

    post #6 of 9

    Here are a couple of pictures for the benefit of the curious:

     

     

    This is a canister of Cassis Base by Firmenich

     

    And this is a 5Kg drum of Green Tea Givco by Givaudan

     

    I've chosen these two products because they are both in the original manufacturers packaging, while most of the materials I have in stock are re-packed or at least re-labeled by the distributors I buy from.

    post #7 of 9
    Thread Starter 

    Wow the real thing!

    post #8 of 9
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Chris Bartlett View Post
     

    I'm afraid you certainly need a scale.  I've given some advice both on buying scales and how to go about making dilutions on my blog, which you may find helps.

     

    Great information! Thank you for sharing that.

    post #9 of 9
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sycomore View Post
     
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Chris Bartlett View Post
     

    I'm afraid you certainly need a scale.  I've given some advice both on buying scales and how to go about making dilutions on my blog, which you may find helps.

     

    Great information! Thank you for sharing that.

     

    You're welcome, the general idea is it should be useful to people.  I also hope that it will help to counter some of the nonsensical advice that appears elsewhere on the net with something you can actually follow and get successful results.

    class="

    9/11/13 at 1:13am

    nicok said:



    Hi All, 

     

    How do you dilute solid materials like calone or ethyl vanillin?

     

    Do I need a scale anyway? If I put fill 1/10 of the bottle with calone and 9/10 ethanol, would that be a 10% solution or I have to weight it?

     

    Also how u work with real resins? How do u calculate the concentration of the tincture?

    9/11/13 at 9:59am

    Chris Bartlett said:



    I'm afraid you certainly need a scale.  I've given some advice both on buying scales and how to go about making dilutions on my blog, which you may find helps.

    9/12/13 at 12:00am

    nicok said:



    Hi Chris, 

     

    Yesterday I was lucky to see a friend of mine that teaches biochemistry, and I asked him about the solutions.

     

    The thing is more complicated than it looks. 

    I also have read your blog.

     

    He explained me that when saying 10% solution may mean three different things.

     

    It may mean 10% w/v (weight to volume)

                         10% v/v (volume to volume)

                or      10% w/w (weight to weight)

     

    All of the above can be of totally different in potency!! 

    So a solution should be declared apart from its percentage to its type as well. 

     

    This is very important for us, as a solution 1%w/v of ethyl vanillin is more potent than a 1%solution v/v.

     

    This information is very important  to correctly recreate a formula, and I haven't really see this information in the bottles of the retailers we buy raw materials.

     

    My intuition says that the perfumery industry works with w/w solutions but I don't really now. 

     

    Chris in your example with 2.5grams of EO in 25 grams ethanol, the solution you get is not 10%, 

    as the analogy is 1:10 and not 1:9. So it is slightly weaker than 10%.

     

    If anyone has the information what type of solutions the industry is using that will be really helpful. 

     

    I guess this information would be on any bottle of Givaudan, but as an amateur I have never bought from Givaudan directly. 

    9/12/13 at 1:04am

    Chris Bartlett said:



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by nicok View Post
     

    Hi Chris, 

     

    Yesterday I was lucky to see a friend of mine that teaches biochemistry, and I asked him about the solutions.

     

    The thing is more complicated than it looks. 

    I also have read your blog.

     

    He explained me that when saying 10% solution may mean three different things.

     

    It may mean 10% w/v (weight to volume)

                         10% v/v (volume to volume)

                or      10% w/w (weight to weight)

     

    All of the above can be of totally different in potency!! 

    So a solution should be declared apart from its percentage to its type as well. 

     

    This is very important for us, as a solution 1%w/v of ethyl vanillin is more potent than a 1%solution v/v.

     

    This information is very important  to correctly recreate a formula, and I haven't really see this information in the bottles of the retailers we buy raw materials.

     

    My intuition says that the perfumery industry works with w/w solutions but I don't really now. 

     

    Chris in your example with 2.5grams of EO in 25 grams ethanol, the solution you get is not 10%, 

    as the analogy is 1:10 and not 1:9. So it is slightly weaker than 10%.

     

    If anyone has the information what type of solutions the industry is using that will be really helpful. 

     

    I guess this information would be on any bottle of Givaudan, but as an amateur I have never bought from Givaudan directly. 

     

     

    Why is it that some people who are knowledgeable about something seem to take delight in making it seem even more difficult than it is to those who know less?  This, it seems to me, is the inverse of what teaching is about.

     

    However, I digress, first I suggest you need to go back to my blog and read it again because all the answers you are looking for are there.  For example if you follow the first link, the third paragraph says:

     

    Quote:
    The industry as a whole tends to work by weight, so if you buy pre-diluted materials they will most likely be diluted on a weight for weight (w/w) basis.  Also all the IFRA regulations that you will need to comply with if you wish to sell your fragrances are expressed in terms of w/w proportions.

    I don't think there is anything much to add to that, except that v/v is widely used in the food industry but w/v is a peculiarity of research chemists best forgotten about by everyone else.

     

    Now as to that 2.5g and 25g, again you need to re-read it.  I have given a detailed method to follow which gives you 2.5g of material in 25g of solution - 10% by weight - I have not said that you can add 25g of ethanol to 2.5g of EO, thus ending up with 27.5g of solution at roughly 9%.

     

    Here is the paragraph in question:

     

    Quote:
    So, to get a 10% solution of your essential oils you first put the 30ml bottle it's going into on the scales (or balance if you prefer) and tare it (so that the display shows 0 with the empty bottle on), then add 2.5grams of your essential oil -don't tare again - top up to 25 grams with ethanol and hey presto! If you find you've put in a little under the 2.5 grams, adjust the amount of ethanol such that you end up with exactly 10 times as much in total, keeping in mind that the bottle will be full at about 25 grams or so, so you don’t want to put in too much of the oil you are diluting.

     

    Notice the double emphasised instruction not to tare after adding the EO and the link to Wikipedia in case the term tare might be unfamiliar.

     

    If I've time later on I'll post a couple of pictures taken of bottles and drums from the major manufacturers as I dare say a few people might be curious to know what they look like, but I'm afraid they are not informative on this particular question. 

    9/12/13 at 2:21am

    nicok said:



    Thanks so much Chris. 

     

    I'll switch to w/w solutions then, so I'll have correct formulas. 

     

    It will be very nice if you could post any photos of the original bottles of the large companies. 

    9/13/13 at 4:05am

    Chris Bartlett said:



    Here are a couple of pictures for the benefit of the curious:

     

     

    This is a canister of Cassis Base by Firmenich

     

    And this is a 5Kg drum of Green Tea Givco by Givaudan

     

    I've chosen these two products because they are both in the original manufacturers packaging, while most of the materials I have in stock are re-packed or at least re-labeled by the distributors I buy from.

    9/13/13 at 5:28am

    nicok said:



    Wow the real thing!

    9/13/13 at 6:21pm

    sycomore said:



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Chris Bartlett View Post
     

    I'm afraid you certainly need a scale.  I've given some advice both on buying scales and how to go about making dilutions on my blog, which you may find helps.

     

    Great information! Thank you for sharing that.

    9/14/13 at 6:45am

    Chris Bartlett said:



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sycomore View Post
     
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Chris Bartlett View Post
     

    I'm afraid you certainly need a scale.  I've given some advice both on buying scales and how to go about making dilutions on my blog, which you may find helps.

     

    Great information! Thank you for sharing that.

     

    You're welcome, the general idea is it should be useful to people.  I also hope that it will help to counter some of the nonsensical advice that appears elsewhere on the net with something you can actually follow and get successful results.