New to perfumery and need a bit of help please!

    New to perfumery and need a bit of help please!

    post #1 of 12
    Thread Starter 

    Hello!

     

    I've always been curious and finally found the time to learn about perfume making. I have, however, hit a single, constant problem... Every single time I apply anything I've made I get rewarded with a delightful rash after the second days use. It doesn't matter if it's carrier oil based (coconut, jojoba, sweet almond, apricot) or alcohol (I'm using 95% pure Everclear equivalent). At first I thought it was the Oak Moss Absolute, but even when I exclude that it happens. So far as I am aware I haven't used any prohibited ingredients or exceeded any safe percentages listed on Chris' helpful IFRA Standards thread.

     

    I figure it's probably going to help if I post one of the blends, so here's the one that's just produced a rash today (all measurements are drops):

    2 Tonka Bean AB

    4 Vanilla co2

    3 Ambrette

    1 Sandalwood (India, Santalum Album)

    1 Jasmine Sambac

    3 Vanilla AB (diluted in alcohol 1:3)

    and a dab of Labdanum (<1/2 drop)

     

    in 100 sweet almond oil.

     

    I know it's usually between 5-10% and I'm sitting just under 8%. Aside from base metal allergy (which usually takes weeks to develop due to sweating) I've never been skin sensitive to anything. I use other perfumes (granted, all commercial) without issue including ones with oak moss, am I doing something wrong? All I've noticed is the rash only develops when I get too warm, and then it hangs around for a while (days - one week).

     

    Further, does any one have suggestions for treating the rash? At the moment I'm just applying Elocon (a cortico steroid), aloe vera gel and taking an anti-hystimine.

     

    Thanks for reading! Sorry it's a bit wordy!

    post #2 of 12
    Anyone can be allergic to any substance, there are no rules and guarantees. IFRA levels does not guarantee 100 percent security. If you still want know and use naturals, you need to determine that the material is not suitable for you. Check each separately on a very small area. Allergies can cause ambrette, santalwood, jasmin, sometimes tonka. Everything can.
    http://dermnetnz.org/dermatitis/fragrance-allergy.html
     
    Drink  enough water. I like use antihistamine gels (PsiloBalsam etc), not corticosteroids.

    If you are allergic for something, you can be sentitive for traces of it, much more lover than IFRA levels.
    I am not allergic for nectarines, I can eat them in south countries, but can't at home. I think I am sensitive for some chemicals used for preservation in long term transportations. Even if they are in allowed levels.

     

    post #3 of 12

    Well I can certainly ascertain that you like Vanilla...

     

    I'd do a patch test for each of your ingredients, maybe it's just one of them that you are allergic to.  Allergies can be to anything, so spend a bit of time and figure it out, and you'll work and live better.  You'll just have to have a vial of each diluted to say 15% and seven spots on your arms written in pen for a couple of days...   and by all means, test the oakmoss too.  15% will assure that you get a good strong reaction.  If all the tests fail, then look at your carriers, but it seems like they should not be the issue.

     

    I'm allergic to jasmine, it gives me a headache, so I am cautious about what to work with sometimes...  I have to limit the amount of Jasmines in my frags so I don't get a headache.

     

    :-)

     

    Hope it works,

    post #4 of 12

    The standout item for me on that list is Tonka - tonka absolute is around 90% coumarin - and coumarin is relatively common as an allergen, so I'd test that first.  You are currently right on the IFRA limit for coumarin for a guess.

    post #5 of 12
    Thread Starter 
    Quote:
     I am not allergic for nectarines, I can eat them in south countries, but can't at home. I think I am sensitive for some chemicals used for preservation in long term transportations. Even if they are in allowed levels.

    That's a good point; I can't relate exactly but I do know that foods cooked with unfamiliar oils send my stomach off kilter so for all I know it could be similar things with oils from different countries.

     

    Quote:
     Well I can certainly ascertain that you like Vanilla...

    Haha, I do indeed! I tend to get a headache like you do from sweet or powerful floral scents but I adore vanilla based and earthy scents. It's almost as if my nose never desensitises to floral smells because if I wear them I can smell them alllll day. If I wear something warm, powdery and vanilla like Hypnotic Poison, I can't consciously smell it after a little while (but certainly can if I put my nose to my wrist).

     

     

    Thank you all for the wonderful replies; I've set up an 8 piece patch test on my arm (I look like I'm trying to tally sightings of the Silence incorrectly) of all seven ingredients plus Oakmoss AB (I adore the smell so if it isn't the culprit I'm going straight back to using it!).

     

    I have a new sneaking suspicion it is the Ambrette. I can recall one time that a bottle leaked in my pocket but it only seemed to be the Ambrette (the lowest viscosity of the lot) that seemed to get out and I got a rash from that one. That bottle was neat, not diluted too. Either that or Ambrette just has the longest odor life.

     

    Another couple of quick questions:

     

    Do you have any advice for working with high viscosity oils? Oakmoss and Labdanum are so thick (even when warmed) that it makes it difficult to effectively measure them. Chris, I read in another thread that you recommended a dilution of 1:1 with DPG, but I only have the 95% alcohol which someone warned will evaporate slightly each time, eventually making it difficult to know exact ratios. It is only 2mls, but that will still last quite some time I imagine.

     

    If I am sensitive to an oil, is it possible to avoid direct contact - and thus use it in small amounts - by putting moisturiser on the skin? I think it was Pkiler who mentioned it on another thread.

    post #6 of 12
    Thread Starter 

    Hey all, bit of an update.

    I set up the 8 skin patch tests and 2 days and 3 applications later and I appear to have no reaction to any of the oils? Is it possible it's some constituent that is shared by two or more of the ingredients that then causes the reaction? I'll have a look into it now, but by any chance do any of you know if the above ingredients share any common constituents?

    post #7 of 12
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Versarnwen View Post
     

    Hey all, bit of an update.

    I set up the 8 skin patch tests and 2 days and 3 applications later and I appear to have no reaction to any of the oils? Is it possible it's some constituent that is shared by two or more of the ingredients that then causes the reaction? I'll have a look into it now, but by any chance do any of you know if the above ingredients share any common constituents?

     

    If either of the vanilla types you are using are of Tahitian origin then they will contain coumarin, which would be cumulative with the coumarin in the tonka. Vanilla from other sources usually does not contain any significant amount of coumarin but I'm uncertain whether the CO2 extraction would be different as it's not a product I normally use.

    post #8 of 12
    Thread Starter 
    Hey Chris, both my vanillas are Indian origin I believe. Also, I have never used Tonka before this, nor Labdanum. I got those two just last week and this is the first blend I've tried them in. Ill definitely keep that in mind for future vanilla orders.
    post #9 of 12

    When you first posted the blend and question, you had stated that it didn't matter the carrier oil, and you stated several.  Have you had the rash with each carrier, every time?

     

    I see that your blend says it's in Almond oil.  Is that the only one you used?

     

    I would test it too then.

    post #10 of 12

    Versarnwen in first post said: ...I'm just applying Elocon (a cortico steroid), aloe vera gel and taking an anti-hystimine.

    If he do tests soon after antihystaminic drugs (or still using them), the results are not accurate.
    We forget, that must be at least 10-14 days break without antihystamine.

    post #11 of 12
    Hi guys,
    I am new to this forum and a newbie to the perfume world. I don't want to say I give up but I am frustrated trying to create a nice floral scent for a project due next month. I have spent a great amount of money on Essential, fragrance oils including synthetics. I wasn't sure at the time what type of scent I wanted to work with when I purchased them. I desperately need help with this creation. All suggestions are welcome and credit will be given if my final result makes it to Allure, Marie Claire, Glamour & Elle magazine. Thank you in advance
    post #12 of 12
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Aromahead View Post

    Hi guys,
    I am new to this forum and a newbie to the perfume world. I don't want to say I give up but I am frustrated trying to create a nice floral scent for a project due next month. I have spent a great amount of money on Essential, fragrance oils including synthetics. I wasn't sure at the time what type of scent I wanted to work with when I purchased them. I desperately need help with this creation. All suggestions are welcome and credit will be given if my final result makes it to Allure, Marie Claire, Glamour & Elle magazine. Thank you in advance

     

    You Know Aromahead, I think we covered this quite well in another thread that you posted the exact same question there:

     

    Edited by pkiler - 9/20/13 at 11:21pm
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    9/13/13 at 6:38am

    Versarnwen said:



    Hello!

     

    I've always been curious and finally found the time to learn about perfume making. I have, however, hit a single, constant problem... Every single time I apply anything I've made I get rewarded with a delightful rash after the second days use. It doesn't matter if it's carrier oil based (coconut, jojoba, sweet almond, apricot) or alcohol (I'm using 95% pure Everclear equivalent). At first I thought it was the Oak Moss Absolute, but even when I exclude that it happens. So far as I am aware I haven't used any prohibited ingredients or exceeded any safe percentages listed on Chris' helpful IFRA Standards thread.

     

    I figure it's probably going to help if I post one of the blends, so here's the one that's just produced a rash today (all measurements are drops):

    2 Tonka Bean AB

    4 Vanilla co2

    3 Ambrette

    1 Sandalwood (India, Santalum Album)

    1 Jasmine Sambac

    3 Vanilla AB (diluted in alcohol 1:3)

    and a dab of Labdanum (<1/2 drop)

     

    in 100 sweet almond oil.

     

    I know it's usually between 5-10% and I'm sitting just under 8%. Aside from base metal allergy (which usually takes weeks to develop due to sweating) I've never been skin sensitive to anything. I use other perfumes (granted, all commercial) without issue including ones with oak moss, am I doing something wrong? All I've noticed is the rash only develops when I get too warm, and then it hangs around for a while (days - one week).

     

    Further, does any one have suggestions for treating the rash? At the moment I'm just applying Elocon (a cortico steroid), aloe vera gel and taking an anti-hystimine.

     

    Thanks for reading! Sorry it's a bit wordy!

    9/13/13 at 9:35am

    Ramute said:



    Anyone can be allergic to any substance, there are no rules and guarantees. IFRA levels does not guarantee 100 percent security. If you still want know and use naturals, you need to determine that the material is not suitable for you. Check each separately on a very small area. Allergies can cause ambrette, santalwood, jasmin, sometimes tonka. Everything can.
    http://dermnetnz.org/dermatitis/fragrance-allergy.html
     
    Drink  enough water. I like use antihistamine gels (PsiloBalsam etc), not corticosteroids.

    If you are allergic for something, you can be sentitive for traces of it, much more lover than IFRA levels.
    I am not allergic for nectarines, I can eat them in south countries, but can't at home. I think I am sensitive for some chemicals used for preservation in long term transportations. Even if they are in allowed levels.

     

    9/13/13 at 9:37am

    pkiler said:



    Well I can certainly ascertain that you like Vanilla...

     

    I'd do a patch test for each of your ingredients, maybe it's just one of them that you are allergic to.  Allergies can be to anything, so spend a bit of time and figure it out, and you'll work and live better.  You'll just have to have a vial of each diluted to say 15% and seven spots on your arms written in pen for a couple of days...   and by all means, test the oakmoss too.  15% will assure that you get a good strong reaction.  If all the tests fail, then look at your carriers, but it seems like they should not be the issue.

     

    I'm allergic to jasmine, it gives me a headache, so I am cautious about what to work with sometimes...  I have to limit the amount of Jasmines in my frags so I don't get a headache.

     

    :-)

     

    Hope it works,

    9/13/13 at 9:45am

    Chris Bartlett said:



    The standout item for me on that list is Tonka - tonka absolute is around 90% coumarin - and coumarin is relatively common as an allergen, so I'd test that first.  You are currently right on the IFRA limit for coumarin for a guess.

    9/13/13 at 5:25pm

    Versarnwen said:



    Quote:
     I am not allergic for nectarines, I can eat them in south countries, but can't at home. I think I am sensitive for some chemicals used for preservation in long term transportations. Even if they are in allowed levels.

    That's a good point; I can't relate exactly but I do know that foods cooked with unfamiliar oils send my stomach off kilter so for all I know it could be similar things with oils from different countries.

     

    Quote:
     Well I can certainly ascertain that you like Vanilla...

    Haha, I do indeed! I tend to get a headache like you do from sweet or powerful floral scents but I adore vanilla based and earthy scents. It's almost as if my nose never desensitises to floral smells because if I wear them I can smell them alllll day. If I wear something warm, powdery and vanilla like Hypnotic Poison, I can't consciously smell it after a little while (but certainly can if I put my nose to my wrist).

     

     

    Thank you all for the wonderful replies; I've set up an 8 piece patch test on my arm (I look like I'm trying to tally sightings of the Silence incorrectly) of all seven ingredients plus Oakmoss AB (I adore the smell so if it isn't the culprit I'm going straight back to using it!).

     

    I have a new sneaking suspicion it is the Ambrette. I can recall one time that a bottle leaked in my pocket but it only seemed to be the Ambrette (the lowest viscosity of the lot) that seemed to get out and I got a rash from that one. That bottle was neat, not diluted too. Either that or Ambrette just has the longest odor life.

     

    Another couple of quick questions:

     

    Do you have any advice for working with high viscosity oils? Oakmoss and Labdanum are so thick (even when warmed) that it makes it difficult to effectively measure them. Chris, I read in another thread that you recommended a dilution of 1:1 with DPG, but I only have the 95% alcohol which someone warned will evaporate slightly each time, eventually making it difficult to know exact ratios. It is only 2mls, but that will still last quite some time I imagine.

     

    If I am sensitive to an oil, is it possible to avoid direct contact - and thus use it in small amounts - by putting moisturiser on the skin? I think it was Pkiler who mentioned it on another thread.

    9/15/13 at 1:01am

    Versarnwen said:



    Hey all, bit of an update.

    I set up the 8 skin patch tests and 2 days and 3 applications later and I appear to have no reaction to any of the oils? Is it possible it's some constituent that is shared by two or more of the ingredients that then causes the reaction? I'll have a look into it now, but by any chance do any of you know if the above ingredients share any common constituents?

    9/15/13 at 2:52am

    Chris Bartlett said:



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Versarnwen View Post
     

    Hey all, bit of an update.

    I set up the 8 skin patch tests and 2 days and 3 applications later and I appear to have no reaction to any of the oils? Is it possible it's some constituent that is shared by two or more of the ingredients that then causes the reaction? I'll have a look into it now, but by any chance do any of you know if the above ingredients share any common constituents?

     

    If either of the vanilla types you are using are of Tahitian origin then they will contain coumarin, which would be cumulative with the coumarin in the tonka. Vanilla from other sources usually does not contain any significant amount of coumarin but I'm uncertain whether the CO2 extraction would be different as it's not a product I normally use.

    9/15/13 at 7:09am

    Versarnwen said:



    Hey Chris, both my vanillas are Indian origin I believe. Also, I have never used Tonka before this, nor Labdanum. I got those two just last week and this is the first blend I've tried them in. Ill definitely keep that in mind for future vanilla orders.

    9/15/13 at 9:25am

    pkiler said:



    When you first posted the blend and question, you had stated that it didn't matter the carrier oil, and you stated several.  Have you had the rash with each carrier, every time?

     

    I see that your blend says it's in Almond oil.  Is that the only one you used?

     

    I would test it too then.

    9/19/13 at 9:59am

    Ramute said:



    Versarnwen in first post said: ...I'm just applying Elocon (a cortico steroid), aloe vera gel and taking an anti-hystimine.

    If he do tests soon after antihystaminic drugs (or still using them), the results are not accurate.
    We forget, that must be at least 10-14 days break without antihystamine.

    9/20/13 at 6:40pm

    Aromahead said:



    Hi guys,
    I am new to this forum and a newbie to the perfume world. I don't want to say I give up but I am frustrated trying to create a nice floral scent for a project due next month. I have spent a great amount of money on Essential, fragrance oils including synthetics. I wasn't sure at the time what type of scent I wanted to work with when I purchased them. I desperately need help with this creation. All suggestions are welcome and credit will be given if my final result makes it to Allure, Marie Claire, Glamour & Elle magazine. Thank you in advance

    9/20/13 at 7:55pm

    pkiler said:



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Aromahead View Post

    Hi guys,
    I am new to this forum and a newbie to the perfume world. I don't want to say I give up but I am frustrated trying to create a nice floral scent for a project due next month. I have spent a great amount of money on Essential, fragrance oils including synthetics. I wasn't sure at the time what type of scent I wanted to work with when I purchased them. I desperately need help with this creation. All suggestions are welcome and credit will be given if my final result makes it to Allure, Marie Claire, Glamour & Elle magazine. Thank you in advance

     

    You Know Aromahead, I think we covered this quite well in another thread that you posted the exact same question there:

     

    Edited by pkiler - 9/20/13 at 11:21pm