Aging of blends

    Aging of blends

    post #1 of 38
    Thread Starter 

    Regarding aging when making perfume oils in a jojoba or fractionated coconut carrier: I know that blends containing EOs need to age a few days to a week before adding the carrier oil, and then around a month with the carrier, but what if you make a blend entirely with FOs instead? Is there any aging process at all with synthetic fragrance oils, or can you skip one or both of the steps in the aging process with synthetics?

    Also, just curious, is it better to just let blends (with EOs, FOs, or both, with or without carrier added) rest for the entire aging period, or to shake them once daily or once weekly?

    post #2 of 38

    All that is necessary is to make sure that your concentrate is well and trulymixed together before you dilute it. Not really necessary for it stand for a weekbefore you dilute it. It doesn't really matter what your concentrated fragrance is made of (all Essential Oils, a mixture of Synthetics and Essential Oils; whatever); all that matters is that it is well mixed together. Once you are sure that your concentrate is well mixed that dilute. If you use alcohol (ethanol) it is a good idea to leave the diluted product in a cold place for a week or so; then filter it. However, if you are using Jojoba Oil or Coconut Oil (and I would not recomend either, for all sorts of reasons) it is not necessary to leave your mix for very long. Again, make surethat everything is well mixed together. No need to keep on shaking your mix, so long as everything is well mixed in the first place.

    post #3 of 38
    Thread Starter 

    Thanks, David. When you say you would not recommend jojoba or FCO as a carrier, do you mind elaborating on some of the reasons, and is there any oil carrier that you would recommend instead?

    post #4 of 38

    If you use a fixed oil (Jojoba etc.) there is often a problem with solubility. Many Perfumery Materials are not very soluble in them. Of course many are, but even more are soluble in Ethanol. Many fixed oils are not very stable and can go rancid over a period of months. The best fixed oils to use (if you must) are Almond Oil (I think this is not prone to oxidation) and Castor Oil.

    post #5 of 38
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by David RuskinView Post

    If you use a fixed oil (Jojoba etc.) there is often a problem with solubility. Many Perfumery Materials are not very soluble in them. Of course many are, but even more are soluble in Ethanol. Many fixed oils are not very stable and can go rancid over a period of months. The best fixed oils to use (if you must) are Almond Oil (I think this is not prone to oxidation) and Castor Oil.

    I wouldn't recommend almond oil, it oxidizes within a year. Most edible oils oxidize fairly quickly. I would suggest Jojoba, which is a very stable liquid wax, and fractionated coconut oil, which has an indefinite shelf life.

    post #6 of 38

    OK ariodant, exactly the opposite of my advice!! I wasn't sure about the stability of Almond Oil, but in my experience Jojoba and Coconut will cause problems. Not least problems with solubility

    post #7 of 38

    I would say FCO is about the best of a bad bunch as far as fixed oils are concerned. A better choice for an oil based fragrance is IPM - isopropyl myristate - which doesn't feel sticky (as DPG does for example) is light and easy to use and the great majority of perfume materials will dissolve in it (though still not quite as many as with ethanol).

    The main area where you'll have solubility problems with IPM is with materials already diluted in ethanol that contain significant water,such as many tinctures for example, and you certainly couldn't use those in a fixed oil either and if you are avoiding ethanol, probably don't want to.

    post #8 of 38
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by David RuskinView Post

    OK ariodant, exactly the opposite of my advice!! I wasn't sure about the stability of Almond Oil, but in my experience Jojoba and Coconut will cause problems. Not least problems with solubility

    that's what the forum is for:grin:

    Most edible oils are mixtures of unsaturated fatty acids. all of which are prone to going rancid. I'm curious about your experience with Jojoba and FCO (not regular solid coconut), what problems did you encounter other than solubility?

    post #9 of 38

    Sorry about the lateness of my reply; I had forgotten about you! When I was a working Perfumer we had a few briefs specifying "All Natural", which included the solvent. We tried all sorts of fixed oils to find the best one. The only one that we found to be at all useful was Castor Oil; best for solubility and best for stability. All the other oils we tried caused problems with solubility; not only could we not dissolve our Essential Oils and Natural Aromachemicals, but we had huge problems in dissolving out fragrances in the end product. We were not just working to make fine fragrances, but were also trying to make fragrances for Bath Products, Cosmetic Products, and others. Eventually, due to lack of interest these products became more and more rare (thank goodness).

    post #10 of 38
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by David RuskinView Post

    Sorry about the lateness of my reply; I had forgotten about you! When I was a working Perfumer we had a few briefs specifying "All Natural", which included the solvent. We tried all sorts of fixed oils to find the best one. The only one that we found to be at all useful was Castor Oil; best for solubility and best for stability. All the other oils we tried caused problems with solubility; not only could we not dissolve our Essential Oils and Natural Aromachemicals, but we had huge problems in dissolving out fragrances in the end product. We were not just working to make fine fragrances, but were also trying to make fragrances for Bath Products, Cosmetic Products, and others. Eventually, due to lack of interest these products became more and more rare (thank goodness).

    I'm sorry you had to work with those difficult briefs. Grain alcohol is natural, why can't that be used as the solvent instead of fixed oils? For body and bath products, emulsifiers and surfactants usually help with solubility, unless they want a bath oil or something.

    I usually don't have problems dissolving EOs in fixed oils. Absolutes and SCO2 extracts indeed don't dissolve well in oils. I never tried aromachems because I know I'll most likely end up with a bottle of separated, unusable, unsalvageable mess. I summon my IPM and perfumer's alcohol to tackle the aromachem beasts!:thumbsup:

    post #11 of 38

    "Natural" alcohol was difficult to obtain, and too expensive. Anyway that is all in the past, I don't have to worry about that anymore. As I said, after a little flurry of interest, the "All Natural" briefs became fewer and fewer.

    post #12 of 38
    Thread Starter 

    Thanks all of you for your helpful advice.

    Ariodant- Some of the places that sell the absolutes and CO2s will sell them diluted in oil so that they are easier to work with and more affordable, I wonder if some of them have used isopropyl myristate to help it dissolve into the oil. When working undiluted with the ones that are solid at room temperature, usually they will just say to heat the bottle in a water bath, heat the carrier oil, and heat anything it's being added to. I'm not really working with any aromachems right now but if I do use any in the alcohol-free perfumes, I will try the IPM.

    David- I would test out castor as a carrier but it always has adverse effects on my own skin. While I am not sure what percentage of my potential customers would have such a reaction, it's bad enough that I would not want to be responsible for inducing it in others.

    I'm wondering if the solubility issues are part of the reason that many people publishing instructions on making perfume oils with EOs, absolutes, and CO2s recommend aging, perhaps aging the blends a week as concentrate and then 4-5 weeks in the carrier oil helps them to slowly dissolve and blend, whereas with FOs it would be more instant?

    Chris- I had been thinking about trying out DPG so I'm glad you mentioned it is sticky. You are correct that I am going the alcohol-free route at this time, although maybe in the future I will try working with alcohols. I wonder whether isopropyl myristate might count as an alcohol for the purposes of a clientele who would specifically be seeking out alcohol-free perfumes for religious or medical reasons. In some places I read it gets described as an alcohol.

    Is shaking or stirring better for mixing blends? I don't have a glass stirrer yet and have been shaking them. If shaking is kind of bad, I have stainless steel chopsticks I could use to stir until I can round up a glass stirrer.


    Edited by rhiannon_chiana - 10/7/13 at 4:18pm
    post #13 of 38
    Isopropyl myristate is an ester, not an alcohol in any sense of the word. As far as religious reasons go, would people be trying to avoid ethanol, or any chemical considered an alcohol? I'd hope not the latter, that sounds almost impossible.
    post #14 of 38
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by JayHView Post

    Isopropyl myristate is an ester, not an alcohol in any sense of the word. As far as religious reasons go, would people be trying to avoid ethanol, or any chemical considered an alcohol? I'd hope not the latter, that sounds almost impossible.

    At one time Body Shop had the ridiculous rule that nothing with the word "alcohol" in its name could be used in any of their fragrances. They were quietly advised of their stupidity and changed the rule. IPM is indeed an ester, and usually the "alcohol free" rule refers to Ethanol.

    I'm surprised to hear about the adverse effect of Castor Oil, I have never experienced this before.

    post #15 of 38

    Hi David,

    Is it okay to vigourously shake up an EO in perfumers ethanol (in a test tube) or should you gently rock the mixture?

    Thank you!!

    post #16 of 38

    I don't think it would harm your mix to shake it. All you need to do is to make sure that it is thoroughly mixed together. What's to harm?

    post #17 of 38




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