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  1. Re: Tincturing strength questions. Enlightenment needed please.

    bill,

    there should be no need to use benzyl benzoate or anything other than aqueous ethanol when tincturing raw civet paste.
    having said that, tincturing civet paste is not as easy as it might...
  2. Re: Tincturing strength questions. Enlightenment needed please.

    julian35,

    i am not sure when or why actual percent figures got assigned to tinctures,
    as at best they are ball park numbers, as an example with ambergris,
    in the past, 30 grams of ambergris...
  3. Re: Classic perfumery accords and other basic exercises

    actually the yield is quite high for ambergris absolute, over 80% assuming one is not using soft black ambergris.
    also ambergris absolute is solid, not a viscous clear fluid.
  4. Re: Classic perfumery accords and other basic exercises

    if it is the clear so called ambergris CO2, it is not real
  5. Thread: Amber gris

    by luigi_g
    Replies
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    529

    Re: Amber gris

    the bright yellow inside doesn't indicate ambergris, your piece is almost the same as this, which was palm oil.
    http://naturcymru.blogspot.com/2012/12/sorry-but-no-it-is-not-ambergris.html
  6. Thread: Schiff's bases

    by luigi_g
    Replies
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    7,753

    Re: Schiff's bases

    Bill,
    ketones react with an amine and will form an imine/schiff base.
  7. Thread: Schiff's bases

    by luigi_g
    Replies
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    7,753

    Re: Schiff's bases

    Bill
    I thought acetals are stable in basic conditions,
    aqueous acid / hydrolysis is one of the deprotection methods.
  8. Thread: Mellis Accord

    by luigi_g
    Replies
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    909

    Re: Mellis Accord

    Pears, served shaken or stirred :)
  9. Re: Anyone ever used Tobacco Absolute from Perfumer's Apprentice? I have a question.

    the wayback machine is a great tool for looking up old products / prices

    here is the PA page from Nov 1, 2011 that does indeed list the tobacco abs as nicotine free...
  10. Replies
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    Re: Small note on natural perfumes

    nemenator, for the record, sandalwood essential oil does not contain sandalore, sandalore is a man made synthetic / aroma chemical
  11. Re: So I'm thinking of doing a Scent Analysis...

    Have you been to the new Spectrix website Paul?

    don't know when the change was made, but the fragrance GC now is 400.00 / 550.00, no longer the 250.00
  12. Re: Benzoin question, fenugreek curiosity, and the wild wonderful world of ionones

    great stuff Pears, thanks

    am not sure about their Novoviol either.....
  13. Re: Please help identify this GCMS report ingredient

    This would be a guess as the other constituents are not listed,
    also there are more than 3 in that list,

    one of them is an anti-oxidant
    one is beta irone
    and the others I am thinking are from...
  14. Re: Benzoin question, fenugreek curiosity, and the wild wonderful world of ionones

    indeed, it was Schimmel & Co, Pears.

    i have the 1944 Fritzsche brothers, Perfumers Handbook and Catalog, that also includes the price list, that is where i
    scanned the ionone prices from.
    ...
  15. Re: Benzoin question, fenugreek curiosity, and the wild wonderful world of ionones

    here is the ionone prices as of Jan, 1944

    28988
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    Re: Reed diffuser carrier

    don't know if this helps, but here is a source in the UK, they list 1.5KG...
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    Re: British Society of Perfumers

    Congrats Chris
  18. Replies
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    Re: Can you use too many naturals?

    I agree with you David,

    I wonder if over the years the accord order somehow was misinterpreted as mixing materials in order,
    e.g. start with the base accord, then the heart, etc... ??
  19. Replies
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    Re: Can you use too many naturals?

    This paper should explain a number of the questions raised in this thread;
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19456979

    although there is not any mention of compounding order, however one could...
  20. Replies
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    Re: Can you use too many naturals?

    fixation is the result of the changed vapor pressure of the solution which changes the total evaporation rate, physics actually, not
    organic chemistry.
  21. Re: Another threat about how to get irone alpha in the us

    You could try requesting a sample from Vigon
    http://www.vigon.com/ironealpha.aspx
  22. Replies
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    Re: Nature identical compounds

    thomash,
    with regard to the legislative part, that was taken out of context to some degree, while it is true these approved processes
    create materials that can be used in products that are...
  23. Replies
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    Re: Nature identical compounds

    would I be incorrect to assume, that you would regard the product of such a process to be a synthetic substance, rather than a natural substance?



    This technology and production is ongoing...
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    Re: Nature identical compounds

    ok, np, thank you
  25. Replies
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    Re: Nature identical compounds

    hi thomash,

    you mentioned fermentation produced, wondering what your take is on that.

    to me fermentation produced, and some of the other approved natural processes are just as confusing or more...
  26. Thread: Limonene

    by luigi_g
    Replies
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    533

    Re: Limonene

    cas 138-86-3 is actually found in a lot of naturals, it could be basil, or bergamont, both have high amounts
    or any of the others

    what does the opening of the colonge smell like?
    is there any...
  27. Replies
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    Re: Nature identical compounds

    well,
    according to a PHD chemist at Firmenich in 1958, methyl dihydrojasmonate was discovered in jasmine.
    ...
  28. Replies
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    Re: Nature identical compounds

    nemenator, I am a bit confused,
    you wrote, " I would prefer to use for example synthetic Methyl Jasmonate instead of its hydrogenated form methyl dihydrojasmonate ie Hedione, as it very much exists...
  29. Replies
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    Re: Nature identical compounds

    "They are not in the least relevant to the point, which was to aid understanding the febrile quality of the statement that a given material is 'not found in nature'"

    excuse me?, you asked me for...
  30. Replies
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    Re: Nature identical compounds

    yes, there is data on this actually published by Firmenich
    "Exaltolide was first synthesized in 1928 via the oxidation of Exaltone"...
  31. Replies
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    Re: Nature identical compounds

    that maybe the case if one assumes firmenich had synthesized this prior to the discovery, as you mentioned
    the trademark is post-date discovery in many trademarks, however, Ruzicka was the first to...
  32. Replies
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    Re: Nature identical compounds

    actually it was found in nature many years ago and prior to the synthetic release,
    in some circles, Ruzicka is credited for the discovery in 1928 in angelica root, while
    others state it was found...
  33. Re: Infusing Ambergris powder in Sandalwood oil

    musk grains do not dissolve
  34. Replies
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    Re: Two alcohol related questions...

    Hi MissVanilla,

    as David correctly mentioned, your description is not a characteristic of PET.
    sadly that description is nothing more than an urban legend, completely inaccurate and as many of...
  35. Re: Is this Ambergris? Can you please help me identify this, found on beach in San Diego.

    put the piece in a bowl of water, it will float if it is ambergris, but as hard as you describe it is, it doesn't sound
    like it is a piece of ambergris.
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    Re: Good MUSK combos?

    well it is one thing to try to recreate the scent, but it is also very inaccurate to state that muscenone is found in deer musk, that is
    not the case and misleading.

    and per Firmenich, and i...
  37. Thread: Musk

    by luigi_g
    Replies
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    908

    Re: Musk

    islearom,

    during the rut, the deer will deposit a miniscule amount of his grains during urination, however that amount
    would be akin to one throwing a few salt grains in the air.
    during the rut...
  38. Replies
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    Re: Good MUSK combos?

    thank you Pears,

    yes, your right, they found Muscenone, the intermediate back in 1971....
    that is a great book btw if you do not own a copy.
    but i thought getting into intermediates, side...
  39. Replies
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    Re: Good MUSK combos?

    forgot to answer this part DrSmellThis, sorry

    so l-muscone is listed here as:
    http://www.takasago.com/cgi-bin/detail.cgi?key=C013200
    Chemical Name:
    (R)-3-Methylcyclopentadecanone
    Synonym...
  40. Replies
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    Re: Good MUSK combos?

    i understand DrSmellThis,

    it could be that the statement made by Arcadi was taken out of context, or misunderstood ??

    don't know the source or date of that statement,

    but here is an...
  41. Replies
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    Re: Good MUSK combos?

    well i don't know what to say on that, DrSmellThis, other than muscenone is not found in nature....and it is certainly not in deer musk.

    if i am not mistaken, you can not get a trademark on any...
  42. Replies
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    Re: Good MUSK combos?

    well muscenone is a molecule made by Firmenich and it is trademarked, it is not found in nature
  43. Replies
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    Re: Good MUSK combos?

    "my advice was about recreating the smell: we are perfumers here so that's what counts"
    of course, but my point was, in nature the optically pure muscone is formed, not racemic.

    "according to...
  44. Replies
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    Re: Good MUSK combos?

    Hi Chris,

    dl-muscone and muscenone are not found in deer musk
    ll-muscone is the only macrocyclic musk compund in deer musk
    muscenone is not found in nature, it is man made
  45. Replies
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    Re: Good MUSK combos?

    yes, that sounds correct, Pears, don't know what i was thinking but i did 2% of 0.065, sorry about that.
  46. Replies
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    Re: Good MUSK combos?

    hey Pears,

    deer musk would only have < 2% muscone, by weight, the macrocylic musk component.
    there are a number of other constituents that contribute to the odor profile
    trace amounts of...
  47. Thread: Cinnemaldehyde

    by luigi_g
    Replies
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    444

    Re: Cinnemaldehyde

    @pears, you typed fater than I :_)
  48. Thread: Cinnemaldehyde

    by luigi_g
    Replies
    15
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    444

    Re: Cinnemaldehyde

    typically is is synthesized from benzoyl chloride and cinnamyl alcohol
  49. Thread: Cinnemaldehyde

    by luigi_g
    Replies
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    444

    Re: Cinnemaldehyde

    so assuming you have a lab with decent steam distillation setup, and have the expertise to correctly steam distill
    materials you might get 9 grams per pound of cinnamon, or you could simply buy an...
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    Re: Old school, "skunky" but soft vetiver ?

    as Paul mentioned, best to sample a number of materials,
    vetiver varies from producer and the country.......but from my experience and use, non are really soft,
    softness would be the amount used...
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    Re: rose changes color

    @var_agg24

    you didn't mention if the rose petals are fresh or dried, but
    as Paul mentioned it could be a very short time frame, also as David mentioned
    if they are fresh, there is way more water...
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    Re: synthetic molecule with a salty aroma?

    TGSC also has an odor listing page that is very useful

    http://www.thegoodscentscompany.com/allodor.html
  53. Replies
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    Re: synthetic molecule with a salty aroma?

    hi nizan,

    it is from the guys continuning Ohloff work

    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Scent-and-Chemistry/263202847040070
  54. Replies
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    Re: The Power of Aging Fragrances

    thanks Hondo, good info.

    i wasn't aware the scientific community had decided that, there was some discussion on that a while back but there was not any definitive
    evidence or decision made, but...
  55. Thread: Fecal notes

    by luigi_g
    Replies
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    Re: Fecal notes

    paul,
    charabot's civet and castoreum new hyperabsolutes are suppose to be out of this world.
  56. Replies
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    Re: The Power of Aging Fragrances

    i was not aware of that material at eden, however i would question that, they list it as
    Botanical Name: Boswellia carterii
    Origin: Oman

    as far as i know Boswellia carterii does not grow in Oman...
  57. Thread: Fecal notes

    by luigi_g
    Replies
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    3,071

    Re: Fecal notes

    well besides IFF, there is also charabot, and robertet naturals.

    http://www.charabot.com/raw-materials/ingredient/civet-abs-bm-01-50-dpg...
  58. Replies
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    Re: The Power of Aging Fragrances

    nothing seems far fetched, hypothetically speaking

    i simply didnt understand your examples as i wrote



    i thought faked aged patchouli was mentioned, so why would it not be cost effective?...
  59. Replies
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    Re: The Power of Aging Fragrances

    well to be honest i was scratching my head as i didnt understand your examples, or the rational
  60. Thread: Fecal notes

    by luigi_g
    Replies
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    Re: Fecal notes

    the amounts of these materials used in medicine is a tiny percent as what is used
    in fine fragrance and flavors, there isn't one company that will disclose that info and
    quite frankly i doubt if...
  61. Replies
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    Re: The Power of Aging Fragrances

    what????
  62. Thread: Fecal notes

    by luigi_g
    Replies
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    3,071

    Re: Fecal notes

    your welcome lpp,

    as long as we on this subject and again is a bit off topic, one of my complaints is the story with castoreum
    if there is any animal material that should be brought to attention...
  63. Thread: Fecal notes

    by luigi_g
    Replies
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    3,071

    Re: Fecal notes

    lpp,

    i could do even better for you, i will get you in touch with the PHD professor at the university who last years semester did a class
    on ethical harvesting and whom is also doing research on...
  64. Re: Anyone has experience with Perfumer's Apprentice GC?

    justin,
    i think this would be a good time,
    maybe i should get you in contact with the senoir chemist over here in racine at scjohnson.com, you know the old
    company that makes johnson wax, well...
  65. Thread: Fecal notes

    by luigi_g
    Replies
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    3,071

    Re: Fecal notes

    actually that report is what maybe 15 years old, it was also debunked buy IFRA as well as another trade group, a couple of years later
    i will try to find the reference.
    also of interest for those...
  66. Re: Anyone has experience with Perfumer's Apprentice GC?

    what do you mean nullify, not following that, are you suggesting a new compound forms that is not found in nature?
  67. Replies
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    Re: Reducing Carboxylic Acids to Aldehydes

    ok thank you,

    also thanks for pointing out the typo, considering what i have to go through to read a post and then try to type
    a reply, i am surprised there are not more of those errors.
  68. Thread: Tincture stain

    by luigi_g
    Replies
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    722

    Re: Tincture stain

    when my lab flooded i lost my UV box, one replacement i found to work very well was one of these,...
  69. Thread: Tincture stain

    by luigi_g
    Replies
    13
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    722

    Re: Tincture stain

    Paul , that was once used in the older days for decolorization and for aging attempts....

    UV or sunlight exposure is one of the secrets to light colored ambergris tinctures.....
    pomegranate...
  70. Thread: Good heliotope

    by luigi_g
    Replies
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    1,218

    Re: Good heliotope

    that is on the hit list over here......
    but you can file a dea paper and provide the usage and formula and then if approved you can purchase it and have it in your possession
    they really don't care...
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    Re: Must Have Equipment for your "Lab"

    for small experimental work i like using disposable U-40 syringes, buy a good pair of pliers and pull out the needle
  72. Re: Reverse engineering GC - chemical sequences

    hi Nizan,

    when you ask about 'original composition' is that the vintage perfume you found, if so is that the one made by
    'J' by chance the night blooming jasmine, if so that was one of my...
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    Re: Reducing Carboxylic Acids to Aldehydes

    sorry for trying to help with info when i can David,
    and shame on you for suggesting otherwise!

    as you once mentioned in a reply to me, your retired and do not care,
    well i too am retired, i...
  74. Thread: Schiff's bases

    by luigi_g
    Replies
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    7,753

    Re: Schiff's bases

    great find, my ultrasonic goes up to 80'C

    edit ...
    jayH, this is just brilliant, check out the structure of citric acid, it is perfect for this
  75. Thread: Schiff's bases

    by luigi_g
    Replies
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    7,753

    Re: Schiff's bases

    jayH,

    you can't use HCL, when the carbonyl O accepts the H+ from the HCL, you have a free CL ion, way to reactive
    you need to use H2SO4, that would also make H2SO4 as the leaving group, so H2O is...
  76. Thread: Schiff's bases

    by luigi_g
    Replies
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    7,753

    Re: Schiff's bases

    you should lose exactly 18.01528 gr of water per the 1:1 mole ratio
    so if you used say 10% of a mole of each, you should lose exactly 1.801528 grams of water
  77. Thread: Schiff's bases

    by luigi_g
    Replies
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    7,753

    Re: Schiff's bases

    the vacuum is used only to lower the temps and get the water out of the reaction vessel

    nice setup btw!!
  78. Thread: Schiff's bases

    by luigi_g
    Replies
    220
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    7,753

    Re: Schiff's bases

    oh sorry justin,

    my vison is all but gone due to MS, so many times, i don't read / see things right.....

    so titrating in the aldehyde ensures the leaving group / water can be removed as it...
  79. Thread: Schiff's bases

    by luigi_g
    Replies
    220
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    7,753

    Re: Schiff's bases

    oh, i just use a erlenmeyer vacuum flask;
    the large ones 1L - 2L for vacuum filtering
    or small ones like this one for small reactions...
  80. Thread: Schiff's bases

    by luigi_g
    Replies
    220
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    7,753

    Re: Schiff's bases

    dropping the temp slowing will insure that all of the water is removed.

    don't think i know the answer to your second question, given what apparatus you have...
    certainly you could try/test...
  81. Thread: Schiff's bases

    by luigi_g
    Replies
    220
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    7,753

    Re: Schiff's bases

    i use one like this
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/2Stage-Deep-Vacuum-Pump-Continuous-Duty-3CFM-1-3HP-HVAC-/390197834672
  82. Thread: Schiff's bases

    by luigi_g
    Replies
    220
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    7,753

    Re: Schiff's bases

    justin,

    check this link out
    http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4840801.html

    it lists a number of aldehye reactions with MA

    here is the reaction of MA and Bergamal

    Preparation of Schiff...
  83. Thread: Schiff's bases

    by luigi_g
    Replies
    220
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    7,753

    Re: Schiff's bases

    yes, Nizan, that is one of the reasons for the vacuum and high temps, the water MUST be removed during the reaction
    lets say it is ran at near 28 inches of vacuum,, doable with a home vacuum pump,...
  84. Thread: Schiff's bases

    by luigi_g
    Replies
    220
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    7,753

    Re: Schiff's bases

    justin,

    for what it's worth, if you search for some of these reactions, most use high temps, 80C to 120C, under vacuum, so
    your at a very high temp without a vacuum, they hold that temp during...
  85. Thread: Schiff's bases

    by luigi_g
    Replies
    220
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    7,753

    Re: Schiff's bases

    david,

    there are a number of ways to filter this, you could remove MgSO4 from a product that would be crystalline, but as you have
    mentioned these types of reactions would go beyond most DIY'ers.
  86. Thread: Schiff's bases

    by luigi_g
    Replies
    220
    Views
    7,753

    Re: Schiff's bases

    well if you had some castor oil, that would be an easy test, just dilute your product 50%,
    but then what would explain the huge color difference?
    during the reaction, did you ever notice an orange...
  87. Thread: Schiff's bases

    by luigi_g
    Replies
    220
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    7,753

    Re: Schiff's bases

    so was doing some more digging, this is really interesting;

    TGSC lisitng for indolene 50:
    http://www.thegoodscentscompany.com/data/rw1377241.html

    CAS Number : 68908-82-7
    Molecular Weight...
  88. Thread: Schiff's bases

    by luigi_g
    Replies
    220
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    7,753

    Re: Schiff's bases

    thinking you need to find some pure indole
  89. Thread: Schiff's bases

    by luigi_g
    Replies
    220
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    7,753

    Re: Schiff's bases

    sure thing, let me know how the Indole 50% X1 + Hydroxycitronellal 100% X1 turns out, if you run that.
  90. Thread: Schiff's bases

    by luigi_g
    Replies
    220
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    7,753

    Re: Schiff's bases

    what i though was;
    Indole 50% X1 + Hydroxycitronellal 100% X1

    looking at indolene 50, it is only 50% of a schiff base and 50% indole
    so you made almost all schiff base... guessing, as you used 1...
  91. Thread: Schiff's bases

    by luigi_g
    Replies
    220
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    7,753

    Re: Schiff's bases

    no idea, other than a guess, kind of impossible to pin that down.
    Indolene 50 is however is a compound, rather than a pure molecule / schiff base
    so perhaps with the high heat and your time you ran...
  92. Thread: Schiff's bases

    by luigi_g
    Replies
    220
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    7,753

    Re: Schiff's bases

    well, it should be 2 moles of pure indole to 1 mole of the pure aldehyde, i believe, so as you mentioned if the indole
    is only 50%, then you would need 4x, but you are also weighing the solvent, to...
  93. Thread: Schiff's bases

    by luigi_g
    Replies
    220
    Views
    7,753

    Re: Schiff's bases

    justin,

    i think you should be using Indole 50% X4 + Hydroxycitronellal 100% X1
    without getting into a chemistry discussion, indole has the nitrogen in the ring, rather than a double bond.
    so you...
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    Re: Orris root powder

    Pears,
    if memory serves me right anisyl acetone fcc is used in the candy, it has the raspberry note
  95. Thread: Schiff's bases

    by luigi_g
    Replies
    220
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    7,753

    Re: Schiff's bases

    good questions Justin,

    i guess one is suppose to just mix stuff and guess....
  96. Thread: benzyl alcohol

    by luigi_g
    Replies
    12
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    746

    Re: benzyl alcohol

    pretty much so Justin.
  97. Thread: benzyl alcohol

    by luigi_g
    Replies
    12
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    746

    Re: benzyl alcohol

    good question, Justin,

    and that is why i mentioned there is no real info gained,
    here as example;

    ambroxan - fixative, yes?
    Vapor Pressure : 0.009000 mm/Hg @ 25.00 C. (est)
    Substantivity...
  98. Thread: benzyl alcohol

    by luigi_g
    Replies
    12
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    746

    Re: benzyl alcohol

    yes, you can look at the VP listed in properties at TGSC

    for example Hedione

    Physical Properties
    Appearance : colorless to pale yellow clear oily liquid (est)
    Assay : 98.00 to 100.00 % sum of...
  99. Thread: benzyl alcohol

    by luigi_g
    Replies
    12
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    746

    Re: benzyl alcohol

    i suppose it might depend on which way you want to control the vapor pressure, yes?
    maybe you would want a fragrance to be more diffusive
  100. Thread: Schiff's bases

    by luigi_g
    Replies
    220
    Views
    7,753

    Re: Schiff's bases

    Kennel,

    that is a good question, looking at the structure is looks more like an ester though?
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