maybe it is the civet your using Bill?
2% civet tincture is very sweet and floral, no barnyard....
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maybe it is the civet your using Bill?
2% civet tincture is very sweet and floral, no barnyard....
this was my last batch;
bugouate - bergamont - 60 6 * - sicilian
citron - lemon - 3.0 .3 * - cold pressed italian
lavande - lavendar - 17.0 1.7 * - 40/42 france
B. d. R. - bois de...
did you use oak moss, or tree moss abs,
I made a batch using some old pine tree moss and a really good opoponax resinoid, checking today
I get the same powder as my 1950's version.
this is what i think perhaps;
60 - Bergamot
03 - Lemon
17 - Lavender
25 - B d R (not sure what this is) = bois de rose = rosewood
05 - Coriander
03 - Neroli petals
01 - Mint or...
Jicky was known for it's high dose of civet....
Shocking used even a higher dose years later
it seems it could be Jean Carles, it is also interesting he did Shocking in 1937, which was another perfume with a high dose of civet....
the right side also mentions formula by Henry Robert,...
did you like brut back when it first came out, that was my goto fragrance in 1966 and 67
maceration of the tears in sandalwood oil works very well, no stickiness
Happy perfuming, Irina !!
does the percent matter?
his statement " ...the molecule that makes up ambrofix"
to me this reads as;
ambrofix is one molecule and it is the same as the molecule found in ambergris
chris made this statement
"However what I can say is that natural ambergris,
even of very high quality, does not contain more than about 2% of the
molecule that makes up...
well chris if enantiomerically pure (-)-ambrox is irrelevant, then I have really nothing more to say
do you have any information that would suggest ambrofix is enantiomerically pure (-)-ambrox ?
interchangeable in terms of scent profile, Trufflehunter
if so, then not to my nose, I prefer cetalox, of course I suppose it also depends on the fragrance type....
to me ambroxan is a bit too...
Trufflehunter, I found cetalox quite nice as well, maybe 6 years ago I also got some cetalox Laevo from vigon that was even nicer
it is not, Chris, look at this
that is ambroxan, aka ambrofix, now look at the molecule
then compare that molecule to ambroxide aka ambrox...
yes, it is Pears,
Ambroxan however is a trade / brand name and it is not identical to (-)-ambrox / (-)-Ambroxide
as far as I know.
that was a typo, your post mentioned ambrofix
my post should have read ambrofix is not found in ambergris, of course ambroxan is not as well.
the molecule in ambergris is (-)-ambrox aka...
don't know if this helps you with your formula Pears,
but here is a GC/MS of an aged ambergris tincture
natural ambergris does not contain any ambroxan.
if you have never smelled the perfume, how could one begin to create a perfume that will be nearest to the real thing?
there is also;
two enhancers - modifiers
a good bit of lyral
you are refering to Benzyl Benzoate or Benzyl Alcohol as a solvent when working with frankincense resinoid
rather than Benzyl Benzoate or Benzyl Alcohol used as a solvent to produce...
good question Irina,
there is little info to find, I would certainly think there is a very tiny amount of hexane or the other hydro-carbon solvent remaining
albeit trace amounts as most absolutes...
am thinking the MPG was added as a carrier, frankincense resinoid, and the like are not pourable.
as too the exact solvent, I suppose it would depend on who / where is is made.
resinoids are essentially concretes, hydrocarbon solvents are used, hexane, petroleum ether....
there are also washed resinoids, which are ethanol washed products of the above first...
David, you made me smile today!
am I just overly dense today ?? what does any of this have to do with perfumery?
just a thought before you buy a GC/MS, maybe write/email Dr.Pappas, he might have one or could get one for you?
he is usually very helpful to perfumers
I think your right Bill
that is not a GC/MS, that is a result from a Thin-layer chromatography test.
well, yes, ambergris absolute is like a hard hard wax, or if this was the resinoid, it would have been
extremely thick, but pourable when warmed as the resinoid has a small amount of...
I believe this is the real deal, if it was the 'Artificial' product, they always labeled it with Artificial, printed on the label.
also this was not a tincture, this was ambergris grey...
David, you are absolutley right, I was not suggesting the contrary.
according to Dr. Pappas, a PHD chemist, it makes little difference.
ah, that is what I must be doing wrong, I store all of my materials out in the sun
most essential oils are photochemically inactive in the visible light spectrum, so clear bottles are fine
it certainly sounds like an interesting and fun experiment.
Condiment Junkie, I do not know for sure, but it is not too high
my friend of mine who is a bow hunter wears an activated carbon fabric camo suit, all he does
is put in in the clothes dryer for 10...
well activated carbon fabric would work, the fabric will absorb the odor until it reaches its capacity
and will hold on to it as you mentioned, then to release that captured odor, you could simply...
good explanation Bill,
especially on the point of risking the dilution of the product in Bricklaya's case.
unless he has a way of concentrating the final product ?
other than the cost of olive oil, there is certainly nothing wrong with using that,
I think my choice would be sunflower oil, or another mild lighter fixed oil.
Maybe try a few different maceration...
saturation would not apply when both materials are of the same state of matter, in this case both liquids.
you can add 1ml of lemon oil to 999ml of aqueous ethanol and you can add 1ml...
BA = Benzyl Alcohol, I am thinking
indeed mumsy, I will certanily post here what he finds
pretty cool mumsy, I sent the Arabic pdf to a friend who reads and writes in Arabic
well there are a number of ambergris odor profiles / notes,
Gunther Ohloff describes the relevant odor qualities of ambergris as;
real ambergris tincture will never provide an amber note....that is not what real ambergris is used for.
as far as how much cetalox to use, it would depend on how much of it's note...
your right Bill,
also consider 1944 was during the war, who could afford that expensive of a perfume....
as a comparison,
civet tincture was 67.00 per kilo
musk tincture, tonquin grain was...
but then in the 1000 gram example, only 3 grams of ambergris is used...
that would be would be 75.00 of ambergris at todays retail price, or 36.00 of ambergris wholesale.
so 7.50 per...
when ambergris tincture was commonly used [years ago], the rule of thumb was 73.5 percent of ambergris tincture
of the fragrance concentration, so if one would have made a 20% EDP, then for every 20...
there should be no need to use benzyl benzoate or anything other than aqueous ethanol when tincturing raw civet paste.
having said that, tincturing civet paste is not as easy as it might...
i am not sure when or why actual percent figures got assigned to tinctures,
as at best they are ball park numbers, as an example with ambergris,
in the past, 30 grams of ambergris...
actually the yield is quite high for ambergris absolute, over 80% assuming one is not using soft black ambergris.
also ambergris absolute is solid, not a viscous clear fluid.
if it is the clear so called ambergris CO2, it is not real
the bright yellow inside doesn't indicate ambergris, your piece is almost the same as this, which was palm oil.
ketones react with an amine and will form an imine/schiff base.
I thought acetals are stable in basic conditions,
aqueous acid / hydrolysis is one of the deprotection methods.
Pears, served shaken or stirred :)
the wayback machine is a great tool for looking up old products / prices
here is the PA page from Nov 1, 2011 that does indeed list the tobacco abs as nicotine free...
nemenator, for the record, sandalwood essential oil does not contain sandalore, sandalore is a man made synthetic / aroma chemical
Have you been to the new Spectrix website Paul?
don't know when the change was made, but the fragrance GC now is 400.00 / 550.00, no longer the 250.00
great stuff Pears, thanks
am not sure about their Novoviol either.....
This would be a guess as the other constituents are not listed,
also there are more than 3 in that list,
one of them is an anti-oxidant
one is beta irone
and the others I am thinking are from...
indeed, it was Schimmel & Co, Pears.
i have the 1944 Fritzsche brothers, Perfumers Handbook and Catalog, that also includes the price list, that is where i
scanned the ionone prices from.
here is the ionone prices as of Jan, 1944
don't know if this helps, but here is a source in the UK, they list 1.5KG...
I agree with you David,
I wonder if over the years the accord order somehow was misinterpreted as mixing materials in order,
e.g. start with the base accord, then the heart, etc... ??
This paper should explain a number of the questions raised in this thread;
although there is not any mention of compounding order, however one could...
fixation is the result of the changed vapor pressure of the solution which changes the total evaporation rate, physics actually, not
You could try requesting a sample from Vigon
with regard to the legislative part, that was taken out of context to some degree, while it is true these approved processes
create materials that can be used in products that are...
would I be incorrect to assume, that you would regard the product of such a process to be a synthetic substance, rather than a natural substance?
This technology and production is ongoing...
ok, np, thank you
you mentioned fermentation produced, wondering what your take is on that.
to me fermentation produced, and some of the other approved natural processes are just as confusing or more...
cas 138-86-3 is actually found in a lot of naturals, it could be basil, or bergamont, both have high amounts
or any of the others
what does the opening of the colonge smell like?
is there any...
according to a PHD chemist at Firmenich in 1958, methyl dihydrojasmonate was discovered in jasmine.
nemenator, I am a bit confused,
you wrote, " I would prefer to use for example synthetic Methyl Jasmonate instead of its hydrogenated form methyl dihydrojasmonate ie Hedione, as it very much exists...
"They are not in the least relevant to the point, which was to aid understanding the febrile quality of the statement that a given material is 'not found in nature'"
excuse me?, you asked me for...
yes, there is data on this actually published by Firmenich
"Exaltolide was first synthesized in 1928 via the oxidation of Exaltone"...
that maybe the case if one assumes firmenich had synthesized this prior to the discovery, as you mentioned
the trademark is post-date discovery in many trademarks, however, Ruzicka was the first to...
actually it was found in nature many years ago and prior to the synthetic release,
in some circles, Ruzicka is credited for the discovery in 1928 in angelica root, while
others state it was found...
musk grains do not dissolve
as David correctly mentioned, your description is not a characteristic of PET.
sadly that description is nothing more than an urban legend, completely inaccurate and as many of...
put the piece in a bowl of water, it will float if it is ambergris, but as hard as you describe it is, it doesn't sound
like it is a piece of ambergris.
well it is one thing to try to recreate the scent, but it is also very inaccurate to state that muscenone is found in deer musk, that is
not the case and misleading.
and per Firmenich, and i...
during the rut, the deer will deposit a miniscule amount of his grains during urination, however that amount
would be akin to one throwing a few salt grains in the air.
during the rut...
thank you Pears,
yes, your right, they found Muscenone, the intermediate back in 1971....
that is a great book btw if you do not own a copy.
but i thought getting into intermediates, side...
forgot to answer this part DrSmellThis, sorry
so l-muscone is listed here as:
i understand DrSmellThis,
it could be that the statement made by Arcadi was taken out of context, or misunderstood ??
don't know the source or date of that statement,
but here is an...
well i don't know what to say on that, DrSmellThis, other than muscenone is not found in nature....and it is certainly not in deer musk.
if i am not mistaken, you can not get a trademark on any...
well muscenone is a molecule made by Firmenich and it is trademarked, it is not found in nature
"my advice was about recreating the smell: we are perfumers here so that's what counts"
of course, but my point was, in nature the optically pure muscone is formed, not racemic.
dl-muscone and muscenone are not found in deer musk
ll-muscone is the only macrocyclic musk compund in deer musk
muscenone is not found in nature, it is man made
yes, that sounds correct, Pears, don't know what i was thinking but i did 2% of 0.065, sorry about that.
deer musk would only have < 2% muscone, by weight, the macrocylic musk component.
there are a number of other constituents that contribute to the odor profile
trace amounts of...
@pears, you typed fater than I :_)
typically is is synthesized from benzoyl chloride and cinnamyl alcohol
so assuming you have a lab with decent steam distillation setup, and have the expertise to correctly steam distill
materials you might get 9 grams per pound of cinnamon, or you could simply buy an...