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How is fragrance regarded in your culture?

post #1 of 107
4/23/06 at 7:50pm
Thread Starter 
I'm new to the board and not really familiar with where everyone's from, but I've been wondering...how is men's fragrance regarded in your culture? Â*Is is very common for men, of any age or profession to wear fragrance and are only certain kinds of fragrances preferred, etc.? Â*Does your country have regional or religious differences regarding this topic? Â*

Herb Lady
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post #2 of 107
4/23/06 at 9:34pm
I'm also curious about cultural preferences (if any) towards certain notes. I had never heard of Kouros or anything like it before I met basenotes, and yet here it is- a best selling frag.

Americans are brainwashed from day one that any odor, blemish, imperfection, or other flaw instantly renders them sexually unappealing and they will die alone because of it. I don't know if it's that bad in other countries. From what I hear, there are people who enjoy a more natural smell on other people- not unpleasantly rank, but not as clean as freakin Windex. I have yet to meet that kind of woman here in the states (well, I have met that kind of woman, but she has bad odor problems of her own )

I would like to live someplace where I could go out wearing Kouros or some other blatantly masculine frag and feel confident that at least SOME people would enjoy it for the same reasons that I do. Wearing Kouros out where I live would be like shaving only the left side of your face. People would stare.


-ben
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post #3 of 107
4/23/06 at 10:42pm
Nice topic
Here in Egypt, fragrances are not very common. when I found basenotes, I found people talking about some scents such as Cool Water and ADG as scents that every body wears. There's no such a thing here in Egypt. Some of these scents I don't know how they smell till now
I don't know any one except for me who is mad about fragrances - Although I have tried a few fragrances. Generally, having one scent is more than enough for most Egyptians and it is not always noticed by others - at least no one notices I am wearing fragrances, but I enjoy them though.
Getting samples for scents is not easy here, you cannot easily get samples for all fragrances you want to try.
price and the currency difference can be one of the reasons for people not to wear fragrances. Fragrances in Egypt are more expensive than in America or Europe - some time can get to double the price in some expensive stores, and the mean income in Egypt is less than in Europe and America.
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post #4 of 107
4/23/06 at 10:48pm
A gentleman or lady is never fully dressed without wearing fragrance. Gentlemen are expected to carry a handcherchief, I usually have the fragrance of the day on it.
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post #5 of 107
4/24/06 at 8:06am
Most people here use it. It starts in the end of elementary school, usually. It's something everybody ought to have but not really something people talk about. Many people have their frags from christmas presents. You can't find anything niche here in Denmark at all. People tend to stick with the most common brands like Armani, Lacoste, Gaultier and Hugo Boss. If I need anything special I have to get it in other countries. :-[
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post #6 of 107
4/24/06 at 11:24am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by aubrgene

A gentleman or lady is never fully dressed without wearing fragrance. Â* Gentlemen are expected to carry a handcherchief, I usually have the fragrance of the day on it.

Very interesting responses so far...thank you.

But Aubrgene - you didn't indicate where you were from or what culture you're talking about. You don't have to of course and I would understand your desire for privacy - just curious. Guessing from your cultural description, I wondered if you might be talking about France.

I live in the United States (Northeast) close to New York City, so of course many men here wear fragrance. But we have here such a diverse group of different cultural, religious and socio-economic backgrounds from all over the world, and I wonder what cultural habits men bring with them from their original homes that would determine their taste in fragrance.

When I was growing up, many older heterosexual men would wear aftershave, but not cologne, which they felt was worn only by gay men. Fortunately, that stereotype is no longer believed by younger generations of men here, such as my husband or our nephews. My great-uncles used to wear these hair tonics that simply reeked.

As for Americans always wanting to smell clean, I've found that the reasoning may be a combination of our early Puritan immigrants believing 'cleanliness is next to Godliness', but more importantly, we've historically have a plentiful supply of clean and inexpensive water, unlike so many other parts of the world (depending upon what part of the country you're in though, that has changed somewhat). I used to work for a European boss who once told me that Americans smell like soap, which completely surprised me. I hadn't thought we smelled like anything.
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post #7 of 107
4/24/06 at 12:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Herb Lady

When I was growing up, many older heterosexual men would wear aftershave, but not cologne, which they felt was worn only by gay men. Fortunately, that stereotype is no longer believed by younger generations of men here, such as my husband or our nephews. My great-uncles used to wear these hair tonics that simply reeked.

This is exactly what I was thinking. Im from the states (Colorado) and it seems like the decision of whether to wear a scent or not depends mostly on ideas about the masculine role in society.

Notice that older companies such as Dior, Guerlain, Chanel, etc, made TONS of feminine scents, almost on a yearly basis, all the way back to their beginnings. A masculine frag came out maybe once a decade. Now, ideas about gender attributes in the states (particularly in large metro areas) are more loosely defined. Masculine scents - many of which actually smell quite feminine these days - are released in droves.

I would imagine that fewer people wear scents in more patriarchal cultures with strict masculine identity codes. How many native Japanese Basenoters do we have? I would imagine not many. If you are one though, more power to you!
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post #8 of 107
4/24/06 at 12:33pm
Hi all,
This is an interesting question, and Im glad that someone brought it up. Im sure that preferences and attitudes toward fragrances differ based on country, region, and many different facets of culture. For example, I have moved a lot within the US, and have found very different attitudes moving from the West Coast to the East Coast and back. Here in Portland, Oregon I would say people are still really conservative about wearing fragrances, especially males. This area still has this frontier/hippy vibe that holds to an earthier ethic. I know that there are pockets of people in specific sub-cultures (like attorneys) that wear daily fragrances more commonly, but I would say that 90% of the men that I interact with daily wear NO fragrances at all daily (Im a psychologist, and I interact with a pretty wide variety of folks through my week.) Im sure that a fair number of those have a bottle of Polo or Cool Water stashed somewhere for special occasions, but even out at nice restaurants I rarely smell people wearing anything.
The pervasive attitude here, in a large part of the culture, seems to be that fragrances on men should be VERY subtle, or left at home. It has not happened to me, but people wearing even noticeable amounts sometimes get asked to leave restaurants, busses, and elevators. It seems to rank up there somewhere with secondhand smoke. Until I moved to the East Coast at age 18 NONE of my peers, male or female ever wore fragrances. It is just not something we are raised with here.
That being said, I live in a predominantly African American neighborhood, and I smell a lot of fragrances on men around here these days. My neighbors joke that you will find a bottle of Michael Kors in every bathroom.
So, I am clearly living in the right neighborhood.

-Slim
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post #9 of 107
4/24/06 at 1:06pm
Well, I'm from Brazil and right here almost everybody wears fragrances.
Most of the people own often 1or 2 bottles (1 for daily wear and another for special occasions). Although Brazil is a third world country, people wear the national colognes as O Boticário, L'Acqua di Fiori etc. These colognes are cheaper and are EDC or even a category that only exists here: Deo Cologne (even weaker than EDC) Â*
The Deo colognes are generally worn by the poorest people and vanishes in 30 minutes - 1 hour. It's common to see people reapplying fragrances.
The foreign fragrances are extremely expensive here: first of all, because of the import taxes: 60% plus! The currency is another factor that increases the value of the product (1 US$ = 2.2 R$).
It's interesting to see that the designer fragrances, normally in EDT strength, caused a great impression when they started to be worn by the richest and something interesting happened: everybody in Brazil likes strong, rich, with a lot of sillage fragrances!
Nobody here wants to pay a hideous price to smell a fainty watery fragrance... Everybody wants intoxicating fragrances and for that reason, the classics are the most worn here (for those who can afford). Azzaro, Kouros, Lapidus, Polo are best selling here!
There's a general consensus that if you wear a fragrance, you must be noticed. So, It's unthinkable to invite a person to leave a restaurant just because his fragrance is too loud.
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post #10 of 107
4/24/06 at 5:19pm
Everyone I know owns at least a few bottles of fragrance, although many don't bother wearing it every day. I can't imagine anyone not owning some Hugo Boss, Swiss Army, or similar. I'm still in high school and I think that has something to do with it: it's already hard enough to sit still in one place for hours within 3 feet of four other people without their perfume mixing with yours and making you nauseous.

On a class trip to Spain last year I remember we spent almost all our time at the airport in the perfume section of the Duty Free. When we go out we can't walk by the perfume section without trying something new.

However, I don't think anyone would feel their virility threatened because they are wearing cologne... That's really quite insecure. And kind of funny too. If American men are really of such feeble masculinity, then that explains a lot.

I live in Canada, in Montreal, but almost everyone in my school are third-generation Italian immigrants, so maybe that has something to do with it.
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post #11 of 107
4/24/06 at 6:58pm
Thread Starter 
From what I've heard, Montreal is rather different culturally from the rest of Canada, so it would be interesting to hear what other Canadians think about this issue.

But I think your views are more in line with Americans of the same age as yourself; it's older American men in some regions who have differing views regarding fragrance.
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post #12 of 107
4/24/06 at 9:14pm
Good points Herb Lady, I can still remember the scent of Aqua Velva after shave on my grandfather, but he'd never wear a cologne or EDT, it just wasn't done by his generation. My dad had some Chaps, and Old Spice he'd wear for special occassions but never every day.

Seems like the culture in NY at least is much more accepting of men wearing fragrances, especially since the birth of Metro-sexuals, and magazines catering to men, such as GQ, Esquire, Cargo, FHM, and Maxim. Fragrances for men seemed to take off along with skin care products, and designer clothing.

My dad thinks men are getting too soft, and losing their place in society, maybe so, but we smell alot better.
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post #13 of 107
4/24/06 at 9:19pm
Men rarely wear frags in south Louisiana. Usually a man will have a bottle of Acqua di Gio, Cool Water, or something similar in popularity laying about that he received like, three xmases ago.

I buy my boyfriend Creed frags and other stuff that we both like. He is the only man I detect any scent on on a daily basis (and I am around a ton of men every day).

Guys just aren't into it down here for the most part. I do notice if I ever catch a scent on a guy it is usually a black guy, but down here they tend to take care of themselves better than the white guys do (not stereotyping here, so please no one get upset. I'm not saying this is fact--it's just what I've observed from living here for so long). For instance, I will see black guys getting manicures, etc. They definitely dress better. The white guys are generally pretty big rednecks. I think they must feel wearing fragrance is girly in some way.
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post #14 of 107
4/24/06 at 10:38pm
Culturally, fragrances (on men) are widely regarded as somewhat effeminate. Yes, the marketing can say otherwise, women certainly do. Most men still have a hard time with it.
The post regarding the fragility of the masculine image in American culture, is largely accurate.

For women it doesnt seem to be an issue.

United States
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post #15 of 107
4/24/06 at 11:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Herb Lady

From what I've heard, Montreal is rather different culturally from the rest of Canada, so it would be interesting to hear what other Canadians think about this issue.

But I think your views are more in line with Americans of the same age as yourself; it's older American men in some regions who have differing views regarding fragrance.

I live in Montreal now as well but I've lived in 2 other major canadian cities and visited 1 more so Ottawa, Toronto and Vancouver and we're all pretty fragrant. Montreal is more nichey, Ottawa is more "safe" citrusy scents, Toronto is more high end designer scents and Vancouver I only visited shortly so I couldnt make a definite say but I definatley smelled alot of frags around downtown.
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post #16 of 107
4/26/06 at 2:11pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gooderin

Men rarely wear frags in south Louisiana. Usually a man will have a bottle of Acqua di Gio, Cool Water, or something similar in popularity laying about that he received like, three xmases ago.

I buy my boyfriend Creed frags and other stuff that we both like. He is the only man I detect any scent on on a daily basis (and I am around a ton of men every day).

Do you think that the heat and humidity of Lousiana has anything to do with it?
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post #17 of 107
4/26/06 at 2:31pm
In India, fragrance permeates our culture (as a whole). I'm a Muslim, and we have a lot of perfume oils being used - culturally. Incense sticks (which smell of Sandalwood, Khus (vetiver) etc etc) are all too common. If you go to any temple or mosque, you'll find a lot of people using perfume oils (attars), the ones very common to India are Sandalwood, Musk, Henna, Khus, Mogra (don't know the name of the flower!), Jasmine etc are all too regularly used by people. However, in the streets, its a different matter, most people don't use perfume a lot (or even a little).... or for that matter, deos. As an Indian - due to the heritage, Perfume is all over the place, and due to the religious aspect (Muslim), it is also used (one must be clean, and smell good, so to say).

Apart from that, I have a general liking for perfumes, as I mentioned in an earlier thread, the more exotic ones to me are Xeryus, Grey Flannel, Gentleman, Swiss Army, and the common ones seem to me Gucci Envy, Gucci PH (because of the spices I guess). Since spices like clove, cardamom, cinnamon etc are a vital ingredient of the day to day food here, the incensy/spicy types of perfumes fail to impress .
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post #18 of 107
4/26/06 at 2:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AK3D

In India, fragrance permeates our culture (as a whole). I'm a Muslim, and we have a lot of perfume oils being used - culturally. Incense sticks (which smell of Sandalwood, Khus (vetiver) etc etc) are all too common. If you go to any temple or mosque, you'll find a lot of people using perfume oils (attars), the ones very common to India are Sandalwood, Musk, Henna, Khus, Mogra (don't know the name of the flower!), Jasmine etc are all too regularly used by people. However, in the streets, its a different matter, most people don't use perfume a lot (or even a little).... or for that matter, deos. As an Indian - due to the heritage, Perfume is all over the place, and due to the religious aspect (Muslim), it is also used (one must be clean, and smell good, so to say).

Apart from that, I have a general liking for perfumes, as I mentioned in an earlier thread, the more exotic ones to me are Xeryus, Grey Flannel, Gentleman, Swiss Army, and the common ones seem to me Gucci Envy, Gucci PH (because of the spices I guess). Since spices like clove, cardamom, cinnamon etc are a vital ingredient of the day to day food here, the incensy/spicy types of perfumes fail to impress .


That was a cool description you gave of your city. I immediately thought of Nautica Voyage as the extreme opposite from you describe as common! If spicy scents blend in, I'll bet the nautica line would stand out.

-ben
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post #19 of 107
4/26/06 at 2:47pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by czesc

[quote author=Herb Lady link=1145847023/0#10 date=1145930334]From what I've heard, Montreal is rather different culturally from the rest of Canada, so it would be interesting to hear what other Canadians think about this issue. Â*

But I think your views are more in line with Americans of the same age as yourself; it's older American men in some regions who have differing views regarding fragrance.

I live in Montreal now as well but I've lived in 2 other major canadian cities and visited 1 more so Ottawa, Toronto and Vancouver and we're all pretty fragrant. Montreal is more nichey, Ottawa is more "safe" citrusy scents, Toronto is more high end designer scents and Vancouver I only visited shortly so I couldnt make a definite say but I definatley smelled alot of frags around downtown.[/quote]

Thanks for the information regarding Canadian preferences. It seemed logical that a country as large as Canada would have regional differences.

I also had no idea that certain parts of the USA were still as conservative as reported above, regarding men's fragrance.

I'd love to hear more about Asia and Australia/New Zealand, from any members there. Also, regardless of the country, is there any sort of specific "fragrance culture" in the gay community? I have no idea what that would be, but am just wondering.

Even for women, there are such expections as to what type of fragrances we should wear, based upon our backgrounds, professions, ages or even geographical locations. But as it's considered more socially acceptable in most of the USA, and probably the world, for women to be passionate about fragrance, I find it interesting to learn more about how all men indulge this passion within their own community.
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post #20 of 107
4/26/06 at 2:51pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AK3D

In India, fragrance permeates our culture (as a whole). I'm a Muslim, and we have a lot of perfume oils being used - culturally. Incense sticks (which smell of Sandalwood, Khus (vetiver) etc etc) are all too common. If you go to any temple or mosque, you'll find a lot of people using perfume oils (attars), the ones very common to India are Sandalwood, Musk, Henna, Khus, Mogra (don't know the name of the flower!), Jasmine etc are all too regularly used by people. However, in the streets, its a different matter, most people don't use perfume a lot (or even a little).... or for that matter, deos. As an Indian - due to the heritage, Perfume is all over the place, and due to the religious aspect (Muslim), it is also used (one must be clean, and smell good, so to say).

Apart from that, I have a general liking for perfumes, as I mentioned in an earlier thread, the more exotic ones to me are Xeryus, Grey Flannel, Gentleman, Swiss Army, and the common ones seem to me Gucci Envy, Gucci PH (because of the spices I guess). Since spices like clove, cardamom, cinnamon etc are a vital ingredient of the day to day food here, the incensy/spicy types of perfumes fail to impress .

Thanks for the information about both India and Muslim culture - how interesting! And how especially interesting that you actually like some of the less spicy scents, because of what you're familiar with on a daily basis. What does henna smell like? I thought it was just used as a dye.
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post #21 of 107
4/26/06 at 5:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Herb Lady

[quote author=czesc link=1145847023/0#14 date=1145944968][quote author=Herb Lady link=1145847023/0#10 date=1145930334]From what I've heard, Montreal is rather different culturally from the rest of Canada, so it would be interesting to hear what other Canadians think about this issue.

But I think your views are more in line with Americans of the same age as yourself; it's older American men in some regions who have differing views regarding fragrance.

I live in Montreal now as well but I've lived in 2 other major canadian cities and visited 1 more so Ottawa, Toronto and Vancouver and we're all pretty fragrant. Montreal is more nichey, Ottawa is more "safe" citrusy scents, Toronto is more high end designer scents and Vancouver I only visited shortly so I couldnt make a definite say but I definatley smelled alot of frags around downtown.[/quote]

Thanks for the information regarding Canadian preferences. It seemed logical that a country as large as Canada would have regional differences.

I also had no idea that certain parts of the USA were still as conservative as reported above, regarding men's fragrance.

I'd love to hear more about Asia and Australia/New Zealand, from any members there. Also, regardless of the country, is there any sort of specific "fragrance culture" in the gay community? I have no idea what that would be, but am just wondering.

Even for women, there are such expections as to what type of fragrances we should wear, based upon our backgrounds, professions, ages or even geographical locations. But as it's considered more socially acceptable in most of the USA, and probably the world, for women to be passionate about fragrance, I find it interesting to learn more about how all men indulge this passion within their own community. [/quote]

When I moved to Montreal I noticed that most of the salespeople here at fragrance counters are either really pretty 20 something girls or old ladies, while in Ottawa there was ALOT of gay guys working fragrance counters. Here in Montreal I haven't ran into one yet and I've done alot of frag shopping. Idonno if this helps at all it was just an observation I had made. Another thing I could add in is that most of the gay guys in Ottawa really knew what they were talking about when it came to the products and history and just perfume in general, while alot of the fragrance counter girls here just know the basics (like what familyies the featured scents of the week are in and the major notes, if even that) other than that they dont know much. They just spray it on you and tell you that you smell good then smile and act pretty so you buy it ! LOL
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post #22 of 107
4/26/06 at 8:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Herb Lady

[quote author=gooderin link=1145847023/0#12 date=1145938792]Men rarely wear frags in south Louisiana. Usually a man will have a bottle of Acqua di Gio, Cool Water, or something similar in popularity laying about that he received like, three xmases ago.

I buy my boyfriend Creed frags and other stuff that we both like. He is the only man I detect any scent on on a daily basis (and I am around a ton of men every day).

Do you think that the heat and humidity of Lousiana has anything to do with it?
[/quote]

Possibly; however, I think the whole outdoorsy, fishing and hunting lifestyle most of the men lead down here just doesn't go with frags. They are more into having GIGANTIC trucks with Rebel flags displayed across the back. :

I'm one of the few girls I know down here that actually likes a man to wear cologne.

I hate the heat and humidity down here. I've heard that some people think heat and humidity turns your scent "sour" but personally it just intensifies whatever fragrance I happen to be wearing--so that is the only pro of the heat and humidity. I've lived outside of Louisiana for one year and that was in Nevada. I felt like my frags did not last near as long on my skin in that climate.
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post #23 of 107
4/27/06 at 11:08am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gooderin


I'm one of the few girls I know down here that actually likes a man to wear cologne.

I hate the heat and humidity down here. I've heard that some people think heat and humidity turns your scent "sour" but personally it just intensifies whatever fragrance I happen to be wearing--so that is the only pro of the heat and humidity. I've lived outside of Louisiana for one year and that was in Nevada. I felt like my frags did not last near as long on my skin in that climate.

Just out of curiousity, have other girls there said WHY they don't like men to wear cologne? Â*Any cologne? Â*Do they perceive it as too effeminate or is it something else? Â*
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post #24 of 107
4/27/06 at 11:43am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by czesc

Â*
When I moved to Montreal I noticed that most of the salespeople here at fragrance counters are either really pretty 20 something girls or old ladies, while in Ottawa there was ALOT of gay guys working fragrance counters. Here in Montreal I haven't ran into one yet and I've done alot of frag shopping. Idonno if this helps at all it was just an observation I had made. Another thing I could add in is that most of the gay guys in Ottawa really knew what they were talking about when it came to the products and history and just perfume in general, while alot of the fragrance counter girls here just know the basics (like what familyies the featured scents of the week are in and the major notes, if even that) other than that they dont know much. They just spray it on you and tell you that you smell good then smile and act pretty so you buy it ! LOL

Um, okay. Â*Not quite what I meant about fragrance in the gay community, but interesting in a "did you get suckered into buying whatever scents the 20-something year old pretty girls showed you after melting you with their flirtatious glances?" sort of way. Â*Hopefully that just illustrates that an experienced and knowledgeable salesperson, regardless of sexual orientation, is much more useful to the consumer. Â*

What I really meant is if within the gay community, are there any sort of expectations or etiquette or preferences regarding men's fragrance? Â*Again, I have no idea if this would even be so, and mean no offense by it at all, but simply wonder if this varies at all from the straight community. Â* For instance, two of my uncles, whom are gay, wear vastly different fragrances from each other, but both were experimenting with fragrance (and much more interesting ones) much sooner than my heterosexual uncles. Â* Â*However, my husband's cousin, who is also gay, is a Mid-Westerner and rather conservative by nature, and his fragrance reflects that. Â*But I have no idea if that's really a personal preference or a reality of where he lives and works.

I appreciate the honesty and insights here because this is one of those topics where people are understandably curious about others and their customs (Americans are especially curious people), but you don't want to keep asking someone you know the same type of questions, making them feel like they have to constantly be the spokesperson for their entire culture/gender/ethnic background/race/age group/, etc., rather than just being treated as another human being. Â*

Anyway, I look forward to more responses and again, thanks for sharing!

Herb Lady
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post #25 of 107
4/27/06 at 7:03pm
I find this fascinating, hopefully we can have "reporters" from as many Countries as possible. In the northeast US, you're allowed to wear cologne, even on an everyday basis, but its usually boring as hell like ADG, Polo Blue, etc.

When people find something vaguely interesting such as M7, Habit Rouge, etc. they get very weireded out. But it's becoming more acceptable to wear fragrances in general so that's a start at least.

Por Ejemplo: My roomate from maine used to chastize me all the time for loving fragrances. However he secretly got really into it because throughout the year he got Chrome, than Blue Note, now hes gonna get reaction and ADG as well.

So clearly, he's stuck on the boring stuff. but he even knows to wear sum in warmer weather, some in cooler weather!

So as it's becoming less and less important to be ignorant of hygeine to be considered a "true male" i predict colognes will be more and more acceptable to be worn loudly, and often!

However niche fragrances will never be popular, because their not supposed to be! and expensive as well.
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post #26 of 107
4/28/06 at 5:11am
I find there is an age divison noticeable.

- Grandpa: hair groom and shave lotion or a light (no-name) cologne, as everybody uses in their bathroom.
- Daddy: has two or three good label colognes he uses on special occasions. One may have been an xmas gift or from his fiancée, and more than 20 years old.
- The young generation (boys and girls) seem to have a favorite past time: sniffing at colognes on saturdays. They mostly come in groups or as a couple. They also buy, and I assume they have a lot at home. Younger bankers wear colognes regularly under their white shirts and ties. Public traffic between 7 and 9 in the morning: you get an idea of what must be in - dry and peppery stuff seems to project especially well! Loud is a no-no, and these scents are really less noticeable during the day - if at all!

But these strong, manly, individualists also exist: shave lotion maybe, cologne - never.
And if you met them socially - you wouldn't know the difference!

Herb Lady, curious concerning gay preferences: I think gay males are as different from one another as straight men are. So he will choose from the whole palette, or maybe nothing! With a bigger budget than a daddy or husband has to spend on himself, he may buy the more expensive stuff. Some more extrovert types have always been male fashion trendsetters, from camouflage trousers to pink sweaters. Why shouldn't these have been the first to wear Mugler's colognes, or a straightforward female frag? It sounds to me that some in the gay crowd may have things in common with some afroamerican guys: a special consciousness of how they dress and, perhaps, how they smell? It's always good to know where your allies are, Louisiana in this case!
I have friends in Germany and they tell me similar stories, none of them lives in a big city.
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post #27 of 107
4/28/06 at 5:20am
Here in Tampere, Finland, guy wearing fragrance is almost rule, not exception. Almost exclusively Hugo Boss fragrances, Le Male and AdG. But when a guy is actually interested in fragrances, there is something wrong with him. Really sad.
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post #28 of 107
4/29/06 at 5:57pm
Thread Starter 
Can anyone help me with this? Â*I want to quote two or three posts from other people on this thread, into my post, so that I can respond to what's being reported back. Â*Is there a way to do that or must I only quote one person/one post each time?

Thanks!

Herb Lady
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post #29 of 107
4/29/06 at 7:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Herb Lady

Can anyone help me with this? Â*I want to quote two or three posts from other people on this thread, into my post, so that I can respond to what's being reported back. Â*Is there a way to do that or must I only quote one person/one post each time?

Thanks!

Herb Lady

I've never done it, but if I wanted to try, I would run two windows and copy and paste from the 2nd window to my responding reply post.
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post #30 of 107
4/29/06 at 7:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by foetidus

[quote author=Herb Lady link=1145847023/15#27 date=1146358663]Can anyone help me with this? I want to quote two or three posts from other people on this thread, into my post, so that I can respond to what's being reported back. Is there a way to do that or must I only quote one person/one post each time?

Thanks!

Herb Lady

I've never done it, but if I wanted to try, I would run two windows and copy and paste from the 2nd window to my responding reply post.
[/quote]

Yep. I would right-click on the "quote" link for each quote you want to use, and open a new window for each. Then copy and paste from those into the first. Hope this helps!
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post #31 of 107
4/30/06 at 4:38am
Reporting about a Sydney High School(hmm my two weeks holidays end this monday!)

The staple is Lynx.:-/ I only know of one guy who uses non-deodorant fragrances at my school. He has only smelt my male fragrances, and he thinks all of them are feminine ! Plus, my science teacher gave me weird looks when I told her I used perfume! But then again, even girls don't wear perfume very often. That's high school for you(or me). :'(
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post #32 of 107
4/30/06 at 6:01am
;D That teacher still has to learn a lot herself! But it happens to many of us that this hobby cannot really be shared with others. Blank faces, patient smiles - that is the best reaction I might be able to get, so alas, I almost keep it to myself. Then what happens? People don't understand why you can spend hours at the computer !!!
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post #33 of 107
5/2/06 at 7:16pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by narcus


Herb Lady, curious concerning gay preferences: I think gay males are as different from one another as straight men are. So he will choose from the whole palette, or maybe nothing! With a bigger budget than a daddy or husband has to spend on himself, he may buy the more expensive stuff. Some more extrovert types have always been male fashion trendsetters, from camouflage trousers to pink sweaters. Why shouldn't these have been the first to wear Mugler's colognes, or a straightforward female frag? It sounds to me that some in the gay crowd may have things in common with some afroamerican guys: a special consciousness of how they dress and, perhaps, how they smell?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny_Ludlow

Here in Tampere, Finland, guy wearing fragrance is almost rule, not exception. Almost exclusively Hugo Boss fragrances, Le Male and AdG. But when a guy is actually interested in fragrances, there is something wrong with him. Really sad.

Thank you robyogi and foetidus for showing me how to do the above!


Thank you everyone for such insightful answers to my question. Â*While I suspected that gay men would have as many individual preferences regarding cologne as straight men would, it was still interesting to get that perspective from a man. Â*And it seems that across the world, with the exceptions of South America and India, most men still struggle with their comfort level at displaying their passion about fragrances in public, or wearing something a bit more unusual. Â*I hadn't quite expected that as I thought that more European countries (and I don't know why I thought this) would be more open minded about this issue. Â*

However, I don't know if this is because fragrance is perceived as a more feminine topic by some men, and that even some of the straight men who are starting to experiment more with cologne, are actually rather insecure about the entire process, what scent they are wearing Â*and how they're perceived by others? Â*Or is it that any really serious, all-consuming passion can border on the obsessive, and make almost anyone who doesn't share your interest level and knowledge a little wary of you? Â* Or is it a little of both?

Looking at some of the other threads here about how some guys react when asked about their fragrance, I'm guessing that it's a little of both.

Is there anyone here from Russia or Southeast Asia (the Orient)? Perhaps things are different there...
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post #34 of 107
5/3/06 at 6:45am
I live in Belfast, Northern Ireland. Most men here wear some sort of after shave or EDT daily. I remember back in secondary school (High School) after the showers at PE the dangerous cloud of body sprays and deodorants, and people being teased for having cheap stuff! (As if Lynx/Axe was the height of sophistication!).
First thing in the morning at work (a large office) it's very noticeable that people are wearing some sort of fragrance, usually something like Le Male or D & G Masculine, which is hugely popular here, or the dreaded Joop! Most of the older business men I meet at work are wearing something as well, usually heavier type fragrances actually.
My dad is a real man's man, but wouldn't dream of going to work or out with friends or whatever without spraying himself with something. Having said all that, it's extremely rare to hear people discussing what they're wearing, but of course people do make comments if someone has particularly bad BO or something, usually along the line of "Has he never heard of aftershave?".
My sister and female friends all like men who smell good, and they don't see anything feminine about it.
I live in the capital city though, and people from small towns etc that I know from work have commented that people here are better groomed, but they still don't act as if it's un-manly to wear fragrances or anything like that.
I lived in London whilst at university and the situation there was exactly the same as here, Parisian men wear fragrances as well, and I've been to Amsterdam & Spain and Portugal and noticed pretty much the same thing, so maybe it is a European thing. I certainly can't imagine anyone being asked to leave a restaurant because what they were wearing was too strong!
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post #35 of 107
5/3/06 at 4:46pm
I live in San Francisco, California. A lot of people here smell very good, and men certainly aren't shy about wearing scent. A lot of people also seem to recognize scents, even some of the more unusual ones. SAs here are pretty knowledgeable about scents, at least most of them at the better stores are. There are a few shops here where you can get some hard-to-find fragrances, too. All iin all, it's a nice place for scent hounds to live.

Except... it is also the home of many different kinds of "political correctness," most of which, I hasten to say, don't bother me at all. I have no problem with anti-racist, pro-gay, anti-war, etc. But the one that really burns my butt is the one about "environmental illness." I recognize that there are people who have allergies to many different kinds of things, including many airborne irritants; I don't ever want to impose on them, or cause them discomfort. They deserve respect and consideration. What does bother me is the anti-fragrance nuts who (I supect) don't have any allergies, but just don't like any scents whatsoever, and complain loudly whenever they smell fragrances on anybody. IMO, some of them are just power-tripping and use this to try to control other people's behavior. I don't think that there are very many people who are so allergic that every single fragrance contains something that they can't tolerate, even though there may be a very few who are that sensitive.

Anyway, end of rant. I apologize in advance to anybody on Basenotes who has this concern personally or in connection with others who are near and dear to them. (Though, frankly, I don't guess we have too many on here!)

But the one thing about Northern California culture as it relates to scent that I don't like is the anti-scent lobby. Does anybody in another part of the country encounter this much? If so, please respond. I'd like to see how prevalent this is and where.

Thanks!

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post #36 of 107
5/3/06 at 11:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JaimeB

I live in San Francisco, California. A lot of people here smell very good, and men certainly aren't shy about wearing scent. A lot of people also seem to recognize scents, even some of the more unusual ones. SAs here are pretty knowledgeable about scents, at least most of them at the better stores are. There are a few shops here where you can get some hard-to-find fragrances, too. All iin all, it's a nice place for scent hounds to live.

Except... it is also the home of many different kinds of "political correctness," most of which, I hasten to say, don't bother me at all. I have no problem with anti-racist, pro-gay, anti-war, etc. But the one that really burns my butt is the one about "environmental illness." I recognize that there are people who have allergies to many different kinds of things, including many airborne irritants; I don't ever want to impose on them, or cause them discomfort. They deserve respect and consideration. What does bother me is the anti-fragrance nuts who (I supect) don't have any allergies, but just don't like any scents whatsoever, and complain loudly whenever they smell fragrances on anybody. IMO, some of them are just power-tripping and use this to try to control other people's behavior. I don't think that there are very many people who are so allergic that every single fragrance contains something that they can't tolerate, even though there may be a very few who are that sensitive.

Anyway, end of rant. I apologize in advance to anybody on Basenotes who has this concern personally or in connection with others who are near and dear to them. (Though, frankly, I don't guess we have too many on here!)

But the one thing about Northern California culture as it relates to scent that I don't like is the anti-scent lobby. Does anybody in another part of the country encounter this much? If so, please respond. I'd like to see how prevalent this is and where.

Thanks!


this is big in like doctors offices, health food stores, that kinda crap... around here... I guess thats where all those nut jobs lurk anyways so it makes sense lol
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post #37 of 107
5/4/06 at 4:17pm
Well, holy poo, I am going to San Francisco next week. I wonder how many people I will offend. I haven't decided which frags I'm bringing yet, though. Was thinking of bringing Nanadebary Green, Lovely and L'eau d'Issey. Maybe I need to bust out some Angel for a full-scale assault. Seriously, I DARE a stranger to say something negative to me about my frag! ;D

I would never say anything negative to a stranger about their frag in public. It's a public place, for christ's sake. I don't say anything to all the people I encounter on a daily basis at the post office, grocery store, or wherever, who smell like BO or farts. And the people that criticize someone's frag in public likely don't say anything to those true stinkies either. It's a double standard. Plus, why say anything to either the BO people or the perfume people--it's not like either one can remedy the damage at that moment.
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post #38 of 107
5/5/06 at 12:58am
stop stinking !
the funniest thing I've heard from Californians yet!
The revenge of the chain smoker?
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post #39 of 107
5/5/06 at 3:12am
What a nice subject to talk about.
I am Iranian and live in Iran , I visited and lived in a lot of other neighboring countries and have loved fragrance since I was about 12 years old . now I am 37. it is told that prophet mohammad was a fragrance lover too it has been told that he used to apply oil on his hair and apply fragrance oil specially before prayer or meeting people and he encouraged others to do so. Iran and Perisa used to be one of the most fragrance using societies. And it is a producer of some most widely used fragrance oils. If you go to cities like Kashan and shiraz nowadays it is impossible not to smell rose fragrances . well about 27 years ago after the revolution in iran different opinions emerged upon fragrances some considered alcoholic fragrances to be forbidden and some even considered all kind of fragrances forbidden for men. Even putting fragrances would give you a problem in some government places. But as everything changes to normal now putting fragrances is not a problem any more. Even Most of the Moslem priests apply fragrance oils specially a red rose (called mohammadi rose since prophet mohammad used to like and apply this oil frequently) and black musk oil. I have heared that ayatoulah khamanaee leader of iran uses black musk and Rafsanjani no 2 man in power also uses black musk and president ahmadi nejad uses red rose (though he is though to belong to a religious group that forbid fragrance for men) late king of iran was known to wear halston Z14 and his son used to wear grey flannel. Now a days wearing fragrance by men and women is considered to become a must here and they compete each other by wearing better fragrances . wearing fragrances differ due to the budjet they have and oil fragrance selling is becoming too common thing to find in every street. They sell about 3gr of fragrance oil for about 2$ and you can find the oil of most famous fragrances here. Alcoholic fragrances are also too popular here and you can find a lot of fake fragrances here fragrances such as fake of aqua di gio, happy clinic, kenzo , hugo boss are very polular and are sold for about 10 to 15$ and are brought from dubai , pakistan and china. A lot of guys and girls save their money to buy at least one of two original fragrances which are about 50 to 100$ are are very expensive compare to their income but most of them buy at least one. Most of Iranian classy people and middle class people try to follow up in buying newely lunched and sometimes I find fragrances in Iran that are not lunched in a lot of countries and it is because a lot of fragrance houses have no representative in Iran and those are brought by travelers . it is impossible to go to places that sell original fragrances and not find new fragrance buyers there even some fragrances are pre sold for one of my friends that works in importing fragrances to Iran once told me that he have sold about 100 Clive Christian and about 500 Creed fragrances without any of this fragrance even entering his shop in tehran.
all in all i consider the most Iranians to be fragrance lovers and the only other place i found to be the same was in lebanon where most of the lebanese have same common sence too.
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post #40 of 107
5/5/06 at 3:31am
Very intresting to read, emad! Thank you!
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post #41 of 107
5/5/06 at 5:51am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by emad

Even Most of the Â*Moslem priests apply fragrance oils specially a red rose (called mohammadi rose since prophet mohammad used to like and apply this oil frequently) Â*

Emad, your entire post was really interesting - thank you for contributing to this topic!

I'm curious about the red rose you refer to as Mohammadi rose, and wonder if anyone here knows what specific historic rose that could be - either the species or cultivar, if we have any botanists reading? Â*Or perhaps the oil was made from a blend of more than one red rose?


Herb Lady
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post #42 of 107
5/5/06 at 11:38pm

The Name of the Rose is Persian
*vrda, via Greek rhodon "rose"

In the most popular operas by Richrad Strauss, der Rosenkavalier (Le Chevalier Ã* la Rose, The Rose Cavalier), the handing over of an engagement gift , a rose made of silver, to a princess in Austria of the 18th century, is extended to a really charming ceremony in music. And it is mentioned that the rose is scented with the most precious fragrance oil in the world: rose oil from Persia! The honorable mention was not just accidental as that oil was really very costly, available to the most priveledged of that world.

I believe 'Persian Rose' is now commonly called 'Damask Rose', rosa damascena, or Turkish rose. It reached France in the XIV. In Europe we still consider it the most precious Rose existing. Cultivation centers today are in Anatolia and Bulgaria from where perhaps the bulk is imported now. In many Arabic regions rose oils are also still being produced. But that does not change the history and fame of Persian Rose. It was in Persia where the cultivation, the distilling technique, finest scents and myths were born! In western (french) perfume production is a mass production, as we all know. Rose perfume oils are progressively being replaced by synthec fragrances, as has recently been confirmed by L.Turin. But traditional artisan perfume houses seem to still be using the real oils, a mix sometimes.

Enam, thank you for giving us an insight into Iranian modern living, and perfume habits. Public news is all most of us have access to, and I, for one, never trust them really. 3mg of damask rose oil cost around $20 in Switzerland Why don't we swap persian musk and rose against Dior Homme?
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post #43 of 107
5/6/06 at 3:22am
Indeed interesting posts folks!!!
In particular emad post made me think about how the use of pefume (above all oils) in ancient cultures was related to religion (I'm ignorant about islam, but just think of how many times oils and perfumes are cited in the bibble) or how in acient greece perfumed oils were used by fighters during olimpic games (it was more related to religion than sport at that time and they used different oils according to which god the games were held in honour of).
This made me reflect of how things are changed, specially reading the numerous "which frag turns chicks on?" threads: seems like in moders cultures perfume have become mainly related to sex.
I would be scared to think about the hypothesis that for many people sex is their new deity of nowadays... :-?
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post #44 of 107
5/6/06 at 3:48am
dear herb lady
i read your messege yesterday and made some search to find the information you needed Â*and I found these information in a medical herb book .As narcus mentioned the rose i was talking about is called damask rose since it's origin is from damascus in Syria it has other names and is also called Rose de France , Rose de Procince , French Rose , Rose de Damas , Red rose and Rosaceae other the name it is called by in Iran which is Mohammadi Rose. it's souce as i mentioned is damascus but the best place where it is cultivated is in a place calle ghmsar near kashan in Iran and Â*a famous ceremony is made there for taking rose water and rose oil . The Rose is cultivated In different places of the world and the one that is brought in ghamsar is normally smaller in size but much powerfull in smell than the others. It has several uses which one is in fragrance factory. It is used in most Iranian traditional sweets accompanied by Saffaron where both are known to freshen the heart Â*and kill sadness even excess of Saffron is known to cause unexpected laughing . its essence & Â*water is also used in face and body creams and is known to blow out heat of the body facing sun in the desert .
Bees Â*are trained near the fields of rose to make Hony of the rose and it is believed that this Hony could cure sadness and stress you know Â*researches are made in Iran on this kind of Honey and other Honeys made of other flowers and on their benefits.
Rose Powder, Rose Water, Rose Honey, Rose leaves Jam, Rose Oil , Rose Essence
Most widely used is Rose water and Rose oil
Most expensive is rose Essence which is normally of a very bitter smell and it has to be mixed with other materials to give its normal smell.
The smell of this rose is known to have power on releaving from stress Â*and sadness too.

To narcus I should tell you I would be very glad to send you some Rose Oil but I donÂt know if the Iranian Customs allow it or not I will ask and tell you about it cause you know some things like tobacco and pistachio and saffaron ... and maybe rose oil and Â*Musk may be Â*not Â*allowed to be exported except by some special monopoly corporations .
It may be a nice info that there are very wide range of Musk in Iran their Â*main source is in Kurdistan , Fars and khorasan and Afghanistan and some (not all) like the known Persian Musk which is known to its pheromonic action is made by killing Dears and Ghazelles (which is illegal in Iran and therefore is mainly brought from Afghanistan) . White and Black musk are easy to find and no need for killing animals. Amber is also very popular to find Â*in those areas too.
and as Magnifiscent said fragrance and oils were and are widely used in relegious ceremonies in alot of relegions for example in india and china it is impossible to enter temples and not fine smell of burning sticks. in most of the mosques you can smell the smell of rose water or burning powders being every where in eastern churches too .
by the way herb lady you didn't tell where are you from and about culture of your country fragrance in detail
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post #45 of 107
5/6/06 at 4:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by emad

What a nice subject to talk about.
I am Iranian and live in Iran , I visited and lived in a lot of other neighboring countries and have loved fragrance since I was about 12 years old . now I am 37. it is told that prophet mohammad was a fragrance lover too it has been told that he used to apply oil on his hair and apply fragrance oil specially before prayer or meeting people and he encouraged others to do so.

If I'm not mistaken, there is even a Hadith (Tradition of the Prophet Mohammed) according to which he said, 'Three things in this world are dear to me: perfume, women and prayer.'

Roxoff
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post #46 of 107
5/7/06 at 2:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by emad

To narcus I should tell you I would be very glad to send you some Rose Oil but I dont know if the Iranian Customs allow it or not. I will ask and tell you about it cause you know some things like tobacco and pistachio and saffaron... and maybe rose oil and Musk may be not allowed to be exported except by some special monopoly corporations .
It may be a nice info that there are very wide range of Musk in Iran their main source is in Kurdistan , Fars and khorasan and Afghanistan and some (not all) like the known Persian Musk which is known to its pheromonic action is made by killing Dears and Ghazelles (which is illegal in Iran and therefore is mainly brought from Afghanistan) . White and Black musk are easy to find and no need for killing animals. Amber is also very popular to find in those areas too.


Emad, dear friend and partner in our discussion here: I inadvertantly forgot the 'grin'-smiley under my last sentence, concerning swapping which should have signalled 'I am not serious about what I said'. Excuse me! I realize you cannot simply go to the post office and airmail perfumes. Likewise, you may have trouble receiving parcels from the west. So, please do not worry about it. And believe me: information like you are giving us on perfume use and production is so rare, directly from the source, and authentic - that is what we appreciate and is the only thing that really matters! If I owned another fine sample or not - that is totally unimportant!

I am happy about your extending into some more elementary scents, like musk and amber, and into their use and effects. A lot of it seems to agree with some historical European information. For example, they keep saying nowadays that rose oil will help fighting our common winter depression (when the sun does not rise that much and clouds darken the sky). Rose here is generally considered an attribute of women, romance and love. So western males are rather shy on using that, as well as floral smells in general. But matters are not that simple. By the 'floral' rule, Grey Flannel, an american scent, should not have had that enormous success on several continents for decades. It spreads the scent of wild violets, less sweet perhaps, but not in a shy way! A mix of musk and rose sounds interesting, I' will check who has realized such a fragrance here.

Quote:
quoting Magnifiscent (sorry, I do not know how to combine quotes nicely):
In particular emad post made me think about how the use of pefume (above all oils) in ancient cultures was related to religion (I'm ignorant about islam, but just think of how many times oils and perfumes are cited in the bible) or how in acient greece perfumed oils were used by fighters during olimpic games (it was more related to religion than sport at that time and they used different oils according to which god the games were held in honour of).
This made me reflect of how things are changed, specially reading the numerous "which frag turns chicks on?" threads: seems like in moders cultures perfume have become mainly related to sex.
I would be scared to think about the hypothesis that for many people sex is their new deity of nowadays...

You are very successful in making people smile, Magnifiscent! Sex is and has been a deity in the religious Americas, even Europe, certainly in India and Japan. Old Greek, or Persian cultures have left us clear traces of the same (just first things coming to the top of my head). What other than sex deities have Eroll Flynn, Greta Garbo, the Dietrich (both divas keeping a distance), Schwarzenegger and Monroe (very physical, keeping little distance), and lately Madonna, Prince, MJ (no comments) been? Their acting/singing skills do not explain it all. Those fascists, I believe, were obsessed with predominant male sexuality (black uniformed and leather machos, their pseudo classical art, not essentially but including homosexual elements). Hitler and the Duce were buddies, and remember Evita Peron - these were mass movements diverted to martial atrocities rather than happy twosomes, but in essence on the same base.

Don't we see two sets of deities in many cultures, 'good' and 'bad' ones, angels and devils. Don't we mostly have an official culture with 'values', and profane realities and subcultures? I dare not extend my view into muslim societies. I know too little about them. My visits to some of their tourist ghettos made me suspect the existence of crass double standards. Isn't 'hell' at its best some kind of a spa, a pool party? Does it really smell of sulfur and burnt flesh - to the contrary! Unfortunately, we have to rely on written information and pictures. Who wrote in ancient periods - clergymen and (fortunately) philosophers and scientists. But nobody would seriously think that their precious papyrus rolls and hyroglyphs cover all that may have existed? What would be our view of the world without the remnants of Pompei? One of the few places where we find a healthy mix of the heavenly and urban paradise! Concerning Persia, I have seen some lovely miniatures showing Persian nobility, princes, princesses, master and slaves, some rather intimate ones including. There seems to be corresponding literature also. All of this Mohammed must have been aware of too, and there must have been times where religious as well as profane culture lived happily together.

My theory: As wine never was only for the gods and water for common people, the culture of floral and other scents, 'holy smoke' was developped by inspired people for profane use first. As lambs, have been sacrificed to the gods, fragrance was spent for the same purpose too. It may have been exclusive to gods (this often included the ruler and his family) at certain periods, mainly when the material was very rare or extremely expensive. There is records of that, I believe. The road of the silk trade also was the road for fragrances in history and production capabilities of precious scents have long been a major trump in the trade policy of any ruler! Less so today with our world trade efficiency. Fortunately frankincense is allowed in colognes these days, one called Avignon, papal residence at one time in history, produced by a famous Japanese design house, and worn by people all over the world, no matter if they believe in gods, or not.


There must be a universal preference for scents and their many uses in our genes. I do think that smells are perfect for all kinds of 'heavenly' joys, as can be a book, Iris in the garden, sounds from a piano.... If I would need cologne for erotic effects and related activities only (in the widest possible sense), I would consider 40 bottles a total waste of space and reduce my wardrobe to maybe ten, and my posts to - ? I better stop behaving like a rambling rose.
8-)
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post #47 of 107
5/7/06 at 12:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Herb Lady

[

Thanks for the information about both India and Muslim culture - how interesting! And how especially interesting that you actually like some of the less spicy scents, because of what you're familiar with on a daily basis. What does henna smell like? I thought it was just used as a dye.

Hi,
Hard to describe at my end, but this is what I found on this website provided by SixCats

http://www.tigerflag.com/attar-list.html
"Gulhina Attar (Henna Flower) - The Flower of Paradise. Softly sweet, very rich, deep and earthy, with tea and chocolate notes. An ancient Oriental perfume, loved in many cultures since biblical times."
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post #48 of 107
5/7/06 at 1:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by narcus

Quote:
quoting Magnifiscent (sorry, I do not know how to combine quotes nicely):
In particular emad post made me think about how the use of pefume (above all oils) in ancient cultures was related to religion (I'm ignorant about islam, but just think of how many times oils and perfumes are cited in the bible) or how in acient greece perfumed oils were used by fighters during olimpic games (it was more related to religion than sport at that time and they used different oils according to which god the games were held in honour of).
This made me reflect of how things are changed, specially reading the numerous "which frag turns chicks on?" threads: seems like in moders cultures perfume have become mainly related to sex. Â*
I would be scared to think about the hypothesis that for many people sex is their new deity of nowadays...

You are very successful in making people smile, Magnifiscent! Sex is and has been a deity in the religious Americas, even Europe, certainly in India and Japan. Old Greek, or Persian cultures have left us clear traces of the same (just first things coming to the top of my head). What other than sex deities have Eroll Flynn, Greta Garbo, the Dietrich (both divas keeping a distance), Schwarzenegger and Monroe (very physical, keeping little distance), and lately Madonna, Prince, MJ (no comments) been? Their acting/singing skills do not explain it all. Â*Those fascists, I believe, were obsessed with predominant male sexuality (black uniformed and leather machos, their pseudo classical art, not essentially but including homosexual elements). Hitler and the Duce were buddies, and remember Evita Peron - these were mass movements diverted to martial atrocities rather than happy twosomes, but in essence on the same base.

Don't we see two sets of deities in many cultures, 'good' and 'bad' ones, angels and devils. Don't we mostly have an official culture with 'values', and profane realities and subcultures? I dare not extend my view into muslim societies. I know too little about them. My visits to some of their tourist ghettos made Â*me suspect the existence of crass double standards. Isn't 'hell' at its best some kind of a spa, a pool party? Does it really smell of sulfur and burnt flesh - to the contrary! Â*Unfortunately, we have to rely on written information and pictures. Who wrote in ancient periods - clergymen and (fortunately) philosophers and scientists. Â*But nobody would seriously think that their precious papyrus rolls and hyroglyphs cover all that may have existed? What would be our view of the world without the remnants of Pompei? One of the few places where we find a healthy mix of the heavenly and Â*urban paradise! Concerning Persia, I have seen some lovely miniatures showing Persian nobility, princes, princesses, master and slaves, some rather intimate ones including. There seems to be corresponding literature also. All of this Mohammed must have been aware of too, and there must have been times where religious as well as profane culture lived happily together.

My theory: As wine never was only for the gods and water for common people, the culture of floral and other scents, 'holy smoke' was developped by inspired people for profane use first. As lambs, have been sacrificed to the gods, fragrance was spent for the same purpose too. It may have been exclusive to gods (this often included the ruler and his family) at certain periods, mainly when the material was very rare or extremely expensive. There is records of that, I believe. The road of the silk trade also was the road for fragrances in history and production capabilities of precious scents have long been a major trump in the trade policy of any ruler! Less so today with our world trade efficiency. Fortunately frankincense is allowed in colognes these days, one Â*called Avignon, papal residence at one time in history, Â* produced by a famous Japanese design house, and worn by people all over the world, no matter if they believe in gods, or not.
Â*

There must be a universal preference for scents and their many uses in our genes. I do think that smells are perfect for all kinds of 'heavenly' Â*joys, as can be a book, Iris in the garden, sounds from a piano.... If I would need cologne for erotic effects and related activities only (in the widest possible sense), I would consider 40 bottles a total waste of space and reduce my wardrobe to maybe ten, Â*and my posts to - ? I better stop behaving like a rambling rose.
Â* Â* Â*8-) Â*
Â*


Good to see that, while I make you smile, I'm able also to let your best come out! My post was obviously ironical and provocative, and indeed you read it the right way! Excellent reflection!
Bwt, it they climb supported by intelligence and irony, than rambling roses can be very agreeable!
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post #49 of 107
5/7/06 at 11:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnifiscent

[quote author=narcus link=1145847023/45#45 date=1146992844]
Good to see that, while I make you smile, I'm able also to let your best come out! My post was obviously ironical and provocative, and indeed you read it the right way! Excellent reflection!
Bwt, it they climb supported by intelligence and irony, than rambling roses can be very agreeable!

You made me blush - more: I want to be carried away by Satan himself into the fires of hell, for what I wrote yesterday! (if possible via Paris and its Passage dEnfer).
Ok, Magnifiscent, I admit to also have used your comments for reconciling with a small army of simple minded authors, one copying his coffee-table- book on perfume from the other. They all just compiled myths and fairy tales mixed with some truths, but without sorting it critically, and with a fresh enlightened mind! I plan to dig into the Damask rose more. Wikipedias info that rose actually means Persia came to me as earth shaking revelation. The Damask name then is either usurpation, or in fact the result of further cultivation of an original wild Persian rose.

Ehmad, can you link us to a picture of an older, and a photograph of newer persian Damask roses? Perhaps persian websites have something we cannot access?
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post #50 of 107
5/8/06 at 2:52am
well i will find a piture of it and sent it.
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post #51 of 107
5/8/06 at 8:55pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by emad

dear herb lady
i read your messege yesterday and made some search to find the information you needed Â*and I found these information in a medical herb book .As narcus mentioned the rose i was talking about is called damask rose since it's origin is from damascus in Syria it has other names and is also called Rose de France , Rose de Procince , French Rose , Rose de Damas , Red rose and Rosaceae other the name it is called by in Iran which is Mohammadi Rose. it's souce as i mentioned is damascus but the best place where it is cultivated is in a place calle ghmsar near kashan in Iran and Â*a famous ceremony is made there for taking rose water and rose oil . The Rose is cultivated In different places of the world and the one that is brought in ghamsar is normally smaller in size but much powerfull in smell than the others. It has several uses which one is in fragrance factory.



WOW. Â*I've been away for a couple of days, and in the meantime you've all covered religion, the damask rose, sex, and Dante's Inferno. Â*You guys have been busy!

First things first - the rose. Â*Thank you very much, Emad, for the information (one question though, is the Mohammadi rose definitely red?). Â*With a starting point as to the identity of the Mohammadi rose, I could then turn to my herb books and obtain more accurate information. Â*There is apparently a lot of confusion about this plant, in its identity and true geographic origin, so I'll offer some insight below. Â*Narcus, you were also curious about more information, so here goes:

From The Big Book of Herbs, written by Dr. Arthur O. Tucker and Thomas DeBaggio, I was able to find out quite a bit about the correct identity of the plant. Â*Incidentally, I am reprinting/paraphrasing a small portion of this information here, with the permission of one of the authors, as it's for scientific purposes. Â*Please do not reprint this for sale in any medium. Â*If you need a really good modern herb reference, I highly, highly, highly recommend buying this book. Â*And it has scientifically accurate information about the chemical breakdowns of many herb essential oils, by genus, species and cultivar, which would be helpful for any perfumers.

"Rosa damascena, is more commonly known as the summer damask rose. Â*The original damask rose (called Rosa damascena), was first published by Jean Herrmann in his Dissertatio Inauguralis Botanico-Medica de Rosa in 1762. Â*But this original damask rose isn't the modern one we know, but rather an unidentified hybrid (for those of you not familiar with botany, that means it's a cross between two different types of roses, producing a third, different type). Â*Because of very specific rules of the International Code of Botanical Nomenclature, the correct scientific name of today's damask rose is actually unknown, which is why there's so much confusion concerning this flower. Â*But the name, Rosa damascena, is still used, because there's no other name currently available and generally understood.

The rose commercially cultivated in Kazanlik Valley of Bulgaria is usually listed in rose books as 'Trigintipetala', a name first published in 1889. Â*This cultivar has become totally confused in the nursery trade with 'Prof. Emile Perrot', which was gathered from commercial fields in Iran and introduced by the rosarian Turbat in 1931. Â*Prof. 'Emile Perrot' is the cultivar offered as 'Trigintipetala' by American, Canadian and British nurseries. Â*One leading American rose nursery incorrectly offers 'Alika' of 1906, as 'Trigintipetala'. Â*A rose similar to 'Trigintipetala' is 'Gloire de Guilan', which was gathered from commercial fields in the Caspian provinces of Iran and introduced by the Hilling, a British rose nursery, in 1949. Â*All of these damask roses bear double flowers, usually pink, with a typical damask scent.

'York and Lancaster' (known previously as Versicolor', and 'Variegata') is called the Tudor rose and supposedly originated about the time Henry VII ascended the throne in 1485, although this story may be apocryphal, because the rose can be dated with certainty only by a description of Clusius in 1601. Â*The petals are usually white but sometimes streaked light pink.


Now, the chemistry:

"The attar of 'Prof. Emile Perrot' is dominated by 21% geraniol, 19% geranyl acetate plus citronellol, and 13% nonadecane. Â*The attar of 'Gloire de Guilan' is dominated by 33% geraniol and 12% nonadecane. Â* The attar of 'Trigintipetala' is dominated by 19% nonadecane, 15% geranyl acetate plus citronellol, 14% geraniol, and 11% heneicosane. Â*The commercial Bulgarian attar is dominated by 33% citronellol, 16% geraniol, and 9% nonadecane. Â*The attar of 'York and Lancaster' is dominated by 25% geranyl acetate pluscitronello, 17% geraniol, and 11% heneicosane. Â*

And then lastly, Rosa gallica, the French or Provins rose, is usually cultivated as the the semidouble, cherry pink cultivar 'Officinalis', the apothercary's rose. Â*'Officinalis' dates to about 1240 and was the red rose of the House of Lancaster. Â*'Officinalis' was the source of rose water as prepared in Provins, France. Â*Rosa gallica 'Officinalis' is sometimes called the "red damask".

Phew! Â*I still don't know if the Mohammadi rose is 'Prof. Emile Perrot' or 'Gloire de Guilan', so if anyone has more information after reading this.....?

Emad, are there certain well-known botanical gardens in Iran, where I could check their websites about this rose?

Thanks,
Herb Lady
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post #52 of 107
5/8/06 at 9:29pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AK3D

[quote author=Herb Lady link=1145847023/15#19 date=1146088298][

Thanks for the information about both India and Muslim culture - how interesting! Â*And how especially interesting that you actually like some of the less spicy scents, because of what you're familiar with on a daily basis. Â*What does henna smell like? Â*I thought it was just used as a dye.

Hi,
Hard to describe at my end, but this is what I found on this website provided by SixCats

http://www.tigerflag.com/attar-list.html
"Gulhina Attar (Henna Flower) - The Flower of Paradise. Softly sweet, very rich, deep and earthy, with tea and chocolate notes. An ancient Oriental perfume, loved in many cultures since biblical times."[/quote]

Thank you for this! I appreciate the link and will check it out.
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post #53 of 107
5/9/06 at 2:54pm
Thread Starter 
Sorry, my original post was just too long and giving even me a headache, so I split it into two posts to make it easier to read...


Quote:
Originally Posted by emad


by the way herb lady you didn't tell where are you from and about culture of your country fragrance in detail


After reading your post about how fragrance is used by men and women in Iran, I realize how different things are here in the West. Â*I live outside of New York City and as such, we really have almost everything here because of NYC. Â*In the City you'll find large stores filled with designer fragrances, small or specialty boutiques with niche scents, and smaller perfumeries and apothecary shops that will sell oils or you can create your own. Â*Because this is New York, we have people from all over the world and all over the United States visiting and living and working here. Â*So we have a total mix of everything, which makes it very interesting to see, but that doesn't always mean that you really have the inside information about various cultural or religious practices regarding issues such as fragrance. Â*New Yorkers tend to respect people's privacy, which is why so many celebrities like living here. Â*Â*

Men in NYC are usually comfortable wearing fragrance, because NYC tends to be very cosmopolitan. Â*People dress up more than they do in the suburbs, but of course this is true for most any large international city. Â*But because it's the fashion capital of the United States, trends can come and go very quickly here. Â*Some people (men and women) get very caught up in what's new, what's trendy, what can I wear that no one else has yet? Â*Or they enjoy wearing something that most people, except for a very few sophisticated or knowledgeable people, can't recognize, whether it's fragrance or new designer. Â* There is sometimes a snob factor involved with those who feel compelled to have a "secret" fragrance that no one else can recognize, and the name of which they'll never reveal. Â*Others will tell you the name instantly just so that you think more highly of their taste or how much money they've spent on it (idiotic and insecure). Â*Obviously, not all New Yorkers are like this - it's just one small aspect of the population. Â*And interestingly enough, some of the people who act this way are new transplants to NYC, who seem to get caught up in the whole thing. Â*And it goes without saying that once many people start wearing or adopting a certain new thing, the trend is over very, very fast - often before it becomes popular in the rest of the USA. Â*However, I find that this is usually more true with women's trends - especially fashion ones. Â*I don't know which fragrances are currently the most popular, but I'll ask around and report back. Â*Â*

There is a certain type of man known as a Metrosexual, which means that he lives in a metropolitan area, is heterosexual, but also is very interested in personal grooming - clothing, hair, nails, skincare, fragrances and things like facials and physical massages. Â*The term has caught on with men who are becoming more interested in their appearance, and are overcoming any insecurities they've had concerning their masculinity and grooming rituals more commonly associated with women. Â*

Conservative bankers on Wall Street wear conservative scents. Â*Those in the fashion industry or theater district wear more artistic ones. Â*Power lawyers and CEO's wear scents they think exude power. Â*We generally don't have the same social hierarchy here that exist in many other countries, and so many if not most Americans tend to identify highly with their jobs/professions, because they feel it explains who you are. Â*This is not necessarily a good thing, just what is common. Â*Americans tend to work long hours, and in some places, such as the New York metropolitan area, the length of the workday can be extremely long. Â*We don't receive long vacations, or an entire month off during the summer, etc., so again, jobs here often (but not always) explain a lot about a person. Â*Fragrance choices are very often dictated by profession. Â*A physician may choose not to wear any, so that he or she doesn't trigger any allergies in patients, etc. Â*

Most men I know wear either aftershave/aftershave balm, or a cologne of some type. Â*Most don't wear oils, unless they're really into a create-it-yourself sort of thing. Â*Very few men here take baths - Americans predominately take showers, so men rarely, if ever, use bath oils, but some use scented shower gels or body scrubs. Â* Some women do take more baths than showers, but it's often for relaxation purposes. Â*Some people use incense to scent their homes, but it's more common to find scented candles here. Â*

But if you take a short drive outside of New York City, everything changes. Â*While there are still many men who wear fragrance, wear designer clothes, etc., you'll also find many men who don't. Â*Either they just don't care about fashion or fragrances, or they still have insecurities about their masculinity. Â*Or they don't know much about the topics and don't know how to proceed. Â*So they tend to dress however they think women want them to dress, or however they think they need to dress to attract a woman. Â*The same goes for fragrances (and that's if they wear them at all). Â*And older men tend to be much more conservative regarding fragrances, because for them, a man really didn't do much more than shower, shave, comb his hair, dress, put on his wristwatch and wedding band and walk out the door each morning (no jewelry, no fragrances). Â*There are stories (I don't know if they're apocryphal) about the jewelers, Tiffany & Co., never making diamond rings for men, because it was thought to be vulgar for a man to wear one. Â*

My husband and brothers are in between - some wear fragrances, some don't, but only because they forget to put them on; they're not part of their daily lifestyle. Â*If they do wear fragrances they might own one to three different scents to choose from, depending upon the occasion. Â*But men don't carry fragrance with them and reapply it during the day. Â*If they're interested, they might keep a bottle in their office or only apply it at home. Â*Sports are very popular with men and especially this generation (playing and watching), so anything considered rugged is also popular.

Younger men (our teenage nephews) seem to be more interested in fragrances and don't have as many of the hangups that older men have, nor do they think that an interest in your appearance means that you are effeminate. Â* Also, I think that rap music and hip-hop culture have also made some younger men more comfortable with designer clothes, jewelry and fragrances, because they're popular items with so many artists in that music genre. Â*I see many more young guys today shopping for clothes and fragrances than ever before. Â*It's no longer just girls, so I think this is something that will change with successive generations.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnifiscent

Indeed interesting posts folks!!!
In particular emad post made me think about how the use of pefume (above all oils) in ancient cultures was related to religion (I'm ignorant about islam, but just think of how many times oils and perfumes are cited in the bibble) or how in acient greece perfumed oils were used by fighters during olimpic games (it was more related to religion than sport at that time and they used different oils according to which god the games were held in honour of).
This made me reflect of how things are changed, specially reading the numerous "which frag turns chicks on?" threads: seems like in moders cultures perfume have become mainly related to sex.
I would be scared to think about the hypothesis that for many people sex is their new deity of nowadays... :-?



Lastly, whether I think fragrance today is really only worn by people because of sex, well, I think fragrance today is more about what image people wish to project and how fragrance makes them feel (uplifted, calm, refreshed, sexy, rich, invincible). Â*For some, like I said, it's about power, or status, expressing their creativity, but for others, especially many younger men and women (and sadly, far too many older ones too), I think it's about sex AND youth. Â*They seem to go hand in hand nowadays, the thought that you can't be sexy or attractive without being young. Â*I've noticed a number of posts on this site about whether certain scents are too "old" for some ages, and I smile, because I remember thinking as a child that I merely wasn't sophisticated enough to wear some of my mother's perfumes (and when would I be secure enough to be able to pull them off?), but never did I regard those classic scents as "old". Â*They just had to suit me and work with my personal chemistry. Â*And yet I see reviews in the directory about something being "an old lady fragrance" or matronly (or "old man scent&quot, and feel sad for those who feel this way because, does this mean that when they reach 30 or 35 or 45 or 60, will they think that no one will ever find them attractive again? Â*And what does that do to their self-esteem now? Besides, whatever you're wearing today, your kids will one day think is "old".
Â*
Let's keep hearing from others around the world about fragrance in their culture. Â*

Thanks, Â*
Herb Lady
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post #54 of 107
5/9/06 at 9:31pm
Null
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post #55 of 107
5/10/06 at 11:33pm
dear narcus
i found a link that hase some pictures of the mentioned rose and yearly ceremony of distillation of this rose in ghamsar kashan this ceremony started a week ago and it will go on for about one month


http://www.baztab.com/news/38907.php
http://www.mehrnews.com/fa/NewsDetai...?NewsID=323974
http://www.mehrnews.com/fa/NewsDetai...?NewsID=323997
http://www.mehrnews.com/fa/NewsDetai...?NewsID=324029
http://www.mehrnews.com/fa/NewsDetai...?NewsID=323996
http://www.mehrnews.com/fa/NewsDetai...?NewsID=323982

this ceremoney is held every year at spring in a place called ghamsar near kashan in iran
hope it will help
emad
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post #56 of 107
5/11/06 at 12:09am
Oh, Emad this is wonderful, way more than I had hoped for, and so close to the scene!!
Thank you very much! I think everyone of us interested in rose as a natural ingredient of perfumes will appreciate what you found, and linked to this thread!
Unfortunately not this week and next, but certainly soon I shall try and tie some loose ends together. This is not something that can be done in just an hour. Meanwhile I shall be observer of what may be going on in this thread that covers so many interesting aspects besides roses. Herb Lady, thank you also for your thorough research and results communicated on May 6! I shall try to get hold of the 'Tucker and Thomas DeBaggio' book on herbs! The University library might have it. Also we have a good 'English Book Store' in Zurich.
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post #57 of 107
5/16/06 at 11:52pm
it is a daily ritual..people are crazy about perfumes here, some guys are buying 2 bottles from the same fragrance: one to keep at home 'spray before they go out & step in thier cars', & the other one is to keep in thier cars ' so they spray before they step out thier cars..

the trend here is to layer the western perfume with Â*burnt oud wood, incense & oriental oils..

Oud is part of our daily life here in the arabian peninsula , we burn Â*it in every occasion no matter how sad or happy is it..weddings.. furenals.. day ..night..oud is every where & anytime , it is part of our hospitality..we burn oud for our guests Â*before they leave us... so they leave our places stuffed & perfumed

oud is burnt to perfume our clothes, houses, wardobes, offices, bed linens, body & hair 'if you have a long one'...

on the other hand pure oud oil, is a dark thick nectar 'dark brown to black' is used directly on skin, behind ears, on infants, hair & on the top of moustach ...so you smell oud all the day

our local perfumers 'attar' are mixing it with rose, musk, amber or the 3 of them..AJMAL is the most famous one Â*& they produce oud's soaps, creams, powder & room sprays & i prefer 'shams' perfume from thier range.

me personaly i use oud in a moderate way , i blend oud -as burnt or pure oil- Â* only with fragrances that have an oriental spicy woody hint, like Jaipur , Gucci ph, Body Kouros , CdG2 , gucci rush , rive gauche, M7, envy, intitution, obessision,....
it doesn't work well with sporty or pure western fragrances.

& my faviorete oud fragrance ever is Â*M7
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post #58 of 107
5/17/06 at 1:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Herb Lady

[quote author=aubrgene link=1145847023/0#3 date=1145857685]A gentleman or lady is never fully dressed without wearing fragrance. Â* Gentlemen are expected to carry a handcherchief, I usually have the fragrance of the day on it.

Very interesting responses so far...thank you.

But Aubrgene - you didn't indicate where you were from or what culture you're talking about. Â*You don't have to of course and I would understand your desire for privacy - Â*just curious. Â*Guessing from your cultural description, I wondered if you might be talking about France. Â*

As for Americans always wanting to smell clean, I've found that the reasoning may be a combination of our early Puritan immigrants believing 'cleanliness is next to Godliness', but more importantly, we've historically have a plentiful supply of clean and inexpensive water, unlike so many other parts of the world (depending upon what part of the country you're in though, that has changed somewhat). Â* I used to work for a European boss who once told me that Americans smell like soap, which completely surprised me. Â*I hadn't thought we smelled like anything.[/quote]


Well, I don't know about Aubgrene either, but the same held true back in Havana, Cuba. Â*

We also usually showered twice a day, (the tropics, you know) so perhaps we smelled of soap as well? Â*Minus Puritans, it was often European soap. Most men used aftershaves in the morning, my father included.

I had the good fortune of geting the hell out of that worker's paradise while still young, Â*on a plane instead of a raft. Â*Miami still has some of the 'old world' Â*tradition going strong.

Currently live in L.A. ---I know, I know, Â*there's a thousand jokes about Â*California vs. culture. Â*It Â*does exists but it's hidden, Â*like the 'center' of Â*L.A. Â* Drives New Yorkers crazy. One legitimate complaint from them, though, is that nearly EVERYBODY seems to wear D&G. in Southern Cal. Â*Why? Â*God only knows . . .

Cheers,

Mario. Â*8-)
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post #59 of 107
5/17/06 at 1:06am
Hi I'm new too, and was wondering about this as well. I'm from the San Francisco Bay, and as a middle class white male who likes women, I'm only supposed to wear deoderent because someone is twisting my arm. People look at me strange when I talk about a fragrence by name (unless it's axe), and I can't apply as much as I like or people will say "what stinks." Wearing fragrance is like being a smoker here. No matter where you are, people will treat you like you should be outside, and curse you as some abomonation who gives people migraines.

The exception is the corprate sales type, who don't care about others. were talking 7-10 sprays. blech.

Another thing that interested me on this site was the fact that different frags smelled like different ethnicities, but no one mentioned that. I guess it's because I'm in a place that's ethnicly diverse. Here are a couple: Burberry Week End (asian), Chrome (asian), AdG (white), A-men (black), B-Men (blacker then the black panthers). Anyone else notice this? My friends that do like cologne commented on it, so I know it's not just me... but the opinions vary: my phillipino girlfriend thought Envy smelled asian, when (duh) it's white!

Luckly, you get out to the city, and more people wear cologne.

Sorry to ramble, but this topic is very interesting to me.
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post #60 of 107
5/17/06 at 1:06am
double post---sorry
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