Where have all the chypres gone?

??? Where, you ask? To that big, Chypre factory, way up in the Texas sky . . . I don't know, Ladylonestar. The last chypre I bought, was Diorella, when my sister needed to restock. Some of my all time favorite fragrances, are chypres: Jolie Madame, Y, Parure, Givenchy III, Diorella . . . but chypres have a bad reputation, don't you think?? People say . . . 'oh! I can't wear chypres!' Or 'there have been no, successful chypre fragrances, ever created.' They've never bothered me. You even placed Cialenga in the chypre category, although it's listed as a floral aldehyde. And you know how I feel about that one. Honestly, I don't know when the last real, chypre launch was made. Haven't a clue. I can tell you this, though: in my book FABULOUS FRAGRANCES, the only two scents listed under the distinction of CHYPRE, are Enigma, and Femininit du Bois. The others are chypre floral, chrpre fresh, chypre green, chypre floral animalic, chypre fruity floral. That's all I know.

Dear Ladydlonestar,

From the supply side of creating fragrances, the recent (approx 1.5 years now) regulatory reform on all oakmoss and treemoss materials has created a fundemental shift in new creativity wherein all fragrances that contain mosses are being reformulated to spec and all new scents just don't have the selection of what we perfumers have had for many decades--a variety of odor varying moss notes.

There is a marketing side also to this because the "sheers" or "transparents" based fragrances have been in vogue and have dominated the output in different fragrance categories available.

On another note. I see you are a moderator to this website. Am I to understand that someone like me, who is new, cannot start a thread? With a all due respect I have looked at many subjects posted and their replys on basenotes, and I am not being arrogant here, but your site could use a little "inside the industry" factual information about fragrances and olfaction.

I picked this website because it looks like it has potential, but as a perfumer, Ozmoz probably is the premier website for fragrance info and they have some real professsionals involved.

Look, after twenty some odd years of being in the industry, and being a ghost writer for other people's names or successes, you might say I don't have anything really to prove other than my next "juice win."

As for all comments on this website about a particular fragrance and it's true contents or description, the bottom line is you have to have the analytical data. You have to be able to look inside the bottle with GCMS and accurately decipher the ingredients. Everything else his heresay or marketing B.S.

Speaking of marketing, it and the PR side of the fine fragrance industry (not the creative and compounding side) will say anything to promote their fragrance and brainwash the department store gal in saying that the fragrance contains orchid essential oil to a customer. There is no such natural and what is coming down the pipline based on European regulatory directives affecting the whole world wide fragrance industry, may be truth in labeling issues of ---"you can't lie like that anymore"!

If i may be honest here, where I am coming from runs parallel to an incident that happened about maybe 4 or 5 years ago. There was an aromatherapy conference, held up here in Seatlle and amongst the list of some of the bizzare and "false prophet" speakers was a guy named Brian Lawrence. Now Brian Lawrence is like one of the top world experts in essential oils.

Now don't get me started about the reality of the so called aromatherapy industry and what the real truth is about the whole thing, but I live an hour North of Seattle and would not dignify even going there because smell of bullshit there is so thick it would irritate my lungs. Having heard that Lawrence gave a speech there I cornered him a couple of years later in Austrailia at an IFEAT convention (Iternational Federation of Aroma Trades). I asked him why on Earth would you go a give a speech to such crowd who believes in the corrupt groupthink that synthetics are evil and maybe 3 people out of a hundred and fifty there have any chemisrty background or real experience in hard core essential industry. He said to me "Harris, I went there to teach them science"!

The point is--if you want, I will provide my 2 cents worth to this website and give info you may not get from the industry perfumers who actually create. You know why? Because most perfumers probably would be willing to share their passion and the truth about matters with people who are appreciate when a fragrant molecule stimultes a receptor site and a certain feeling is experienced. The reason most of them can't is because they work for a corporation and you must be careful of what you say. Me, I am solo and I will tell you that the newest Paris Hilton or Donald Trump is nothing more than modified copy of something else or NO, it doesn't have Himalayan Blue Poppy because there is no such thing!

Don't get me wrong, I am on no crusade here but if this website looks at it's participants as customers, then the least it should do is bring in some people who will give you the truth so as to cut through the pretty packaging and give inside content to those who would appreciate it. Some of it is absolutley facinating!

One last thing and i don't mean to be snide, but I have been dealing with this for 13 years now since I started my own business. Sometimes, when I visted a new client up to 60% of the meeting is spent clearing up misconceptions and half-truths of what they believe about almost everything concerning fragrance. Truth be told, the actuall "belly of the beast" creative and manufacturing industry is at fault because it is and has been, a secretive ghost writing industry for well over a hundred and fifty years (refering to time line of when chemistry evolved).

But worst, in my opinion, is the garbage fed, in the past and to a degree present, by the health and beauty media to the masses coupled with the so called experts perpetuating myth, folklore and pseudo science who wrote a lot of books and articles and convinced a lot of people concering the word "aromatherapy" and it's sanctity position. If you only knew how the real experts or anyone imbedded in the fragrance indusrtry really feels about this --you would be surprised. But since the real controlling source of these naturals is (or part) of the fragrance and flavor industry itself--- well let's not bite the hand that will feed us. And feed it did!

My snide side to those who like to be right and argue about aromatherapy and it's so called purity aspect is "shut up". If you don't have any real experience with a trained nose or more importantly, GC/GCMS or any state of the art analytical to ascertain true composition--your like a parrot who just repeats and blindly believes.

Sincerely,

Harris Jones
Pefumer

Anyone here can start a thread


arrogant, yes. Êpretentious, yes.


I'm not even going to go further Ê: Ê

The fact is, everyone on this board loves fragrance. ÊWe all have different opinions and I respect that about everyone here. ÊWe come from various walks of life... doctors, laborers, scientists, lawyers, and some from within the perfume industry.

Respectfully, I would suggest dropping the pretentious attitude, and start offering your expertise as an insider. ÊSuch expertise is always welcome, but without the snobbish flair.

Best regards,

#

This is a wonderful read, and things like this add greatly to the forum. ÊThe purpose of this site is for fragrance lovers to discuss fragrances. ÊAdding "inside the industry" information would be wonderful, but I am going to vehemently degree with your contention that your post was not arrogant and condescending to those of us here. ÊI would love to hear your opinions on things (that's why we're all here to share opinions), however, I don't understand what the purpose of this post was aside from insinuating that none of us knows what we're talking about and how misguided we are. ÊI'd love to see more, but don't care for the tone with which you addressed us in the least. ÊWe're here because we love fragrance and want to discuss it. ÊSharing opinions on things is what we're here for. ÊThere's not many people here who profess to be experts in the field....hell I know I'm not. ÊHowever, what you're intending to do with your post here is missing me. ÊAnyone can start a post, and is encouraged to do so. ÊWe'd love your opinions on things, but not if it's going to be phrased as if we're troglodytes missing the point. Ê

[blue]I second Octothorpe's and Paul G's words, word-for-word.

If you want an audience here, you might want to consider not starting out by alienating everyone.

I for one would be very willing to listen to anything you have to say, but please don't begin by telling us we have nothing of value to say because we're not you and because were not you and we don't have your expertise and because we're not you with your expertise we don't have anything to contribute to the discussion of fragrances.

As with any social interaction, content will only get you so far. It's not what you have to say that will get you listened to. It's what you have to say and in what manner you say it.

I am sure there is a lot we can learn from you, but itâs clear, already, that you have a lot to learn from us.

I respect my fellow Basenote aficionados for their passion and intelligence about fragrances and about life in general, but I particularly respect the generosity of spirit with which they conduct themselves on this board.

With all due respect, please do the same and you will be more than welcome to this board and in this community.

And, having said that, let me personally welcome you Hedione.

Best wishes and regards,

scentemental[/blue]

There is some problem with oakmoss if I remember. Something to do with the EEC (European council),I read on another board that it was or is already being replaced by synthetic. If it smells the same I have no problem.

I love chypres and always have,even before I knew what they were I wore them.

The last one I was given Alpona which is nectar of the gods and perfume nirvana to me.

The last chypre I remember being launched was Knowing!!!!!

Feminite du Bois is an oriental to me,a woody one,there is no oakmoss,vetiver in it which most chypres have. Yes it does have patchouli.

I don't know if Agent Provacateur is technically a chypre, but I tested it once and it is gorgeous. There's also a chypre by La Perla that I like...the name escapes me. It may just be called La Perla.

:P Hi Harris,

I look forward to your upcoming threads, here at basenotes.

Well, that was quite a bit more than 2 cents worth, I would surmise.

I live about an hour North of Seattle, and I am personally very curious as to this "company" that you have. I would imagine that I may have heard of it since we so obviously are basically neighbors.

I have not doubt that there is tons of BS in the marketing and labeling of fragrance and cosmetics in general. I find that information interesting on an intellectual level, but it likely would not deter me from buying and wearing certain fragrances. I don't buy fragrances for some sort of aromatherapeutic value...I either like the way they smell and the imagery they lend...or I don't.

I don't think the assertion that perfume companies lie about what is contained in their juices is any sort of a news flash for us. We are not quite that gullible, babe.

:P Thanks MJH, for another illuminating post. As I posted before, I've heard a number of women say they 'can't wear chypres.' They don't seem to bother me or my sister. She wears 'Y,' and 'Diorella,' and loves them, both. I wear Eau Fraiche from Dior, which could also be considered a chypre . . . again, no trouble whatsoever. And one of my all time favorites, Cialenga, might fall into a chypre category as well. What is it exactly, that makes chypre fragrances so difficult, to non-wearers? The oakmoss note??

Thanks, Ladylonestar.

Sedro - Woolley..now that's even further out in the sticks than me! Êhaha ÊNonetheless, you can get Almond Joy fragrance oil there.

I'll have to see if I can spot the facility next time I'm on my way to my Mom's place outside of Concrete.

If you are interested in visiting the web site mentioned by Hedione, I believe you would have better luck by entering "osmoz," not "ozmoz." ÊJust trying to deliver accurate and true information!

After reading the posts, it seems that the concensus is that this "down to earth / no frills" site is for those of us who find perfume a luxurious and exhilarating necessity of life. And what could be more rewarding than sharing and interacting with people of the same mindset - agreements, disagreements and accolades all inclusive. ÊThe end product is the goal with an analysis from beginning to end of no benefit imo. ÊIf I love a fragrance only to find out the ingredients are horse manure and cat pee, then so be it. ÊApplying a new fragrance then following its metaphoric journey through each fragrant stage is simply euphoric. ÊAfter many years of spraying and dabbing, the thrill has never lessened. Ê

I truly enjoy reading the opinions and facts that everyone has to offer. ÊBut, that being said, too much technical and scientific information is not in my realm of interest and it negates the purpose of site.

JAG

P.S. ÊI wish you could get that much perfume for two cents.

mmmmm Coriandre, yum! Another once upon a time perfume I am keen to get again. Nobody in this thread has mentioned Ma Griffe..It's a great Chypre that is available at v good prices.

Hello-
I'm afraid I often lurk here, but rarely post. I am enjoying this forum so much-so much knowledge, and so much kindness about sharing information! As I value the collective opinion here, can I ask, is Creed's Irisia a chypre? I have it and enjoy it so much-I find it complex and intriguing and fabulous. What classification is it?

I would say it's a green chypre. It reminds me of Jean Louis Scherrer (or is it vice versa), a french perfume that was quite popular in the 80s.

Nice! I am wearing a chypre! I asked my brother's opinion. He said it smelled like roots and leaves!LOL I agree-it does have a green, earthy smell. I bought it unsniffed and I'm so glad I did!

http://www.basenotes.net/cgi-bin/for...75245;start=11


More on safety considerations and restrictions, see the last post for mention of oakmoss:
http://www.basenotes.net/cgi-bin/for...76168;start=10
The only natural ingredient in Guerlain Vetiver seems to be the oakmoss.

FYI, here is an anti-fragrance web site. Check out the "scent free building" symbol at the bottom of the page.

http://www.fpinva.org/new.htm

Thanx Decampen for the anti fragrance website. I am not surprised it is based in Canada because there was an incident a while back about a teacher calling in the Canadian Mounties because a student had a fragrance in his hair gel. This happened in Nova Scotia and became the butt of jokes for many comediens like a Leno, Letterman, Conan O'Brien, etc.

Visisting Canada many times and really caring about our neighbors to the North, I luv the people and the land but the politcal correctness thing there is over the top and completely absurd anymore. Same in our country in certain areas!

Allergic reactions to fragrance are a reality but most of it hinges on the disputed "mulitple chemical sensititvity" movement which incidently lost scientific and medical credibilty after some very hard core published research papers proved these individuals were having reactions (when suggested) that a fragrance was in the room and there was just pure air being piped in. Placebo effect if you will-- producing allergic reaction! Also, well known is the fact that many people deathly allergic to scents were most likely to be allergic to almost everything.

In fact, if I am not mistaken, that movement lost it's drive of credibilty and changed the name to "Idiopathic Eviromental Intolerance" Don't get me wrong, for some people this is very real condition and I am not an expert in this ongoing debate of what the facts really are and where it is going.

One thing for sure, the sense of smell, because of it's power to be associative with people places and things and, acts as a sort of "radar detector" is going to take a bad rap because these sick and not so sick individuals simply attribute negative experience with anything that smells. Also, if you smell smoke in the distance--do you blame the smoke or look for the real danger which is the fire?

Another big issue is that the sense of smell and all of it's truths and abnormalities is simply not taught in school---compared to sight or sound (more important to us as humans) about 95% of Americans really no nothing about the probing poboscis in the middle of there face. You would be suprised of how much ignorance doesn't help when you are trying to explain to a fragrance sales person about why coffee beans and clearing the "nose palette" is completely bogus. But this will be the subject of my next tirade and I think most people interested in fragrance hopefully will understand how this coffee clearing thing is everywhere but has no foundation. Just the opposite, it actually hinders the process.

Let me put it this way. Iff sniffing coffee beans would somehow clear the olfactory receptors for the next sniff in line, every single expert in fragrance, flavor. wine tasting, milk. orange juice or any other sensory evaulator would be using it. Not one that I know of use it! But yet why in every little perfume shop to big department stores are there little dishes of coffee beanswith eager clerks telling you it clears your nose. Ask any of them just how it works and the answers are murky at best.

Oh well, believe me, it's a strange business but I leave you with this litte tidbit I received by e-mail today:

Subject: The Hazards of Baked Bread

A recent Cincinnati Enquirer headline read, "SMELL OF BAKED BREAD MAY
BE HEALTH HAZARD." The article went on to describe the dangers of the
smell of baking bread. The main danger, apparently, is that the organic
components of this aroma may break down ozone (I'm not making this
stuff up).

I was horrified. When are we going to do something about bread-induced
global warming? Sure, we attack tobacco companies, but when is the
government going to go after Big Bread?

Well, I've done a little research, and what I've discovered should make
anyone think twice ....

1: More than 98 percent of convicted felons are bread eaters.

2: Fully HALF of all children who grow up in bread-consuming households
score below average on standardized tests.

3: In the 18th century, when virtually all bread was baked in the home,
the average life expectancy was less than 50 years; infant mortality
rates were unacceptably high; many women died in childbirth; and
diseases such as typhoid, yellow fever and influenza ravaged whole
nations.

4: More than 90 percent of violent crimes are committed within 24 hours
of eating bread.

5: Primitive tribal societies that have no bread exhibit a low
occurrence of cancer, Alzheimer's, Parkinson's disease and osteoporosis.

6: Bread has been proven to be addictive. Subjects deprived of bread
and given only water to eat, actually begged for bread after only two
days.

7: Bread is often a "gateway" food item, leading the user to harder
items such as butter, jelly, peanut butter and even cold cuts.

8: Bread has been proven to absorb water. Since the human body is more
than 90 percent water, it follows that eating bread could lead to your
body being taken over by this absorptive food product, turning you into
a soggy, gooey bread-pudding person.

9: Newborn babies can choke on bread.

10: Most American bread eaters are utterly unable to distinguish
between significant scientific fact and meaningless statistical
babbling.


In light of these frightening statistics, we propose the following
bread restrictions:

1: No sale of bread to minors.

2: No advertising of bread within 1000 feet of a school.

3: A 300 percent federal tax on all bread to pay for all the societal
ills we might associate with bread.

4: No animal or human images, nor any primary colors (which may appeal
to children) may be used to promote bread usage.

5: A $4.2 zillion fine on the three biggest bread manufacturers. Please
send this e-mail on to everyone you know who cares about this crucial
issue.

I love chypres. Some of my favorites are Knowing, Paloma Picasso, Diva, Coriandre, and Diorella. The last one I purchased is Paloma. I will always have a bottle of Knowing in my fragrance collection.

I hope it is just "fashion in fragrance" that is affecting the invention/production of new chypres. I have heard about the oakmoss problems, and have always hoped that if the naturals have to be given up that perfumers will be able to come up with synthetics that don't alter our perception of our favorites too much.

I think the chypres are a very elegant fragrance category.

I'm looking forward to the comeback of Chypres! It would be about time, too. IMO they are the most elegant scents there are (and this is coming from someone who loves Orientals most )

I didn't really find Chypres until two years ago but now I couldn't imagine life without them. My fave subgroups are leather, fruity and green Chypres, my fave Chypre scents Bandit, Cabochard, Jolie Madame, Mitsouko, Y, Yvresse, Femme, Ma Griffe, Private Collection.

Chypres are very versatile, great for any occasion. That's why I always pack a Chypre if there's a work trip: you can wear a Chypre to the office but also for the evening.

Wanted to comment earlier on this thread but have been bogged down with work, then on vacation, then bogged down with work/life once again.

I do indeed agree that Chypres are incredibly elegant. I will also add striking, unusual, and even highly creative. Itâs true that right now they are not in fashion and perhaps it does have something to do with some of these new oakmoss regulations (which I admit I only have had time to barely skim over here.)

All the above being said, I do, unfortunately, have a problem wearing Chypres. They donât dry down very well on me. Itâs not just me either. I now have friend and family nose-support that they just do not seem to work with my bodyâs chemistry. Iâve gotten everything from a burning rubber odor, to chlorine, to mold, must and dust, or just an over-all bitter, unpleasant tone. Itâs terribly frustrating. I have tried so many now I can barely count- 1000, Mitsouko, Alponia, Jolie Madame, Femme, Vallee du Roi, Cabotine, all the Hermes ones, Y, Paloma Picasso, Bandit (which I still try from time to time because I love the opening and heart so much,) Cuir de Russie, Chanel No 19, etc, etc, ect. Even some perfumes which most would agree are ãtechnicallyä not Chypres (Hermes Rouge, Sublime, Boudoir) dry down distinctively Chypre on me . These days I admit I just steer clear.

All the more power to those who can wear them. Iâll just live vicariously through you all I guess.

Hi all,
Here's a recent chypre for you:
Evidence by Yves Rocher.
Presently, I'm wearing Fantasque by Avon (discontinued) which I believe may be a chypre.
Many of my fragrance loves are chypres like Femme for instance.
Hedione I applaud you and your honesty.
Have you heard of Gary Young & Young Living Essential Oils out of Utah? He is sort of a guru of aromatherapy. Are you saying that there are no medicinal uses of essential oils? Gary Young basically teaches that essential oils can be used that way.
I'd love to hear your impressions on him if you know who I mean.
numbr9