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Overrating scents

post #1 of 66
8/27/06 at 7:45pm
Thread Starter 
(Will someone help me with punctuation? Am I right to hyphenate over-rating or is it one word?)

Members of this board have scents they love. Those members are happy to tell other members about those scents, and about their love of them--we wouldn't have a board if this weren't true! Many members share the same love of the same scents, so they agree. Members also have loves of different scents from other members, obviously.

I think members posting threads, posts, and commentary in general should think over the use of the term "overrated." Maybe they can explain more about what they mean when they use it, as in X fragrance enjoys a lot of popularity here recently, but not with me!

I know I don't overrate the scents I love, because I love them.

Disclaimer: (I hate writing what I'm NOT saying, since I like to write what I AM saying and have people evaluate what I AM rather than what I'm NOT saying. However I'm not saying don't use the term on the board, hell, I say express yourself. Be disrespectful if that's what you're about. But when you use the term overrate, you're in the same boat as someone else on the board--you've got scents you rate highly that others don't. What I AM saying is think it over.

Thank you everyone for reading and thinking over this post.
--Chris

EDIT: Grammatical corrections made--"overrate," no hyphen.
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post #2 of 66
8/27/06 at 7:54pm
I agree that it would be better if the usage of the term "over-rated" is backed up by some comments. I think the term "over-rated" applies when a fragrance is rated positively by many, talked about a lot, or sells a lot (or all three).

For example, I like GIT, and it is a big niche seller, but some people think its over-rated for one reason or the other. However, a fragrance like Chevrefeuille Original cannot be classified as over-rated since its not that talked about, or a big seller, or that positively rated.

Thats my understanding of it.
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post #3 of 66
8/27/06 at 8:17pm
I don't know ... I think we think about these things too much sometimes. I can't even count the amount of times frags I love have been called "overrated". Deep down, I'll feel a little let down but I can't really say I get very insulted. If that were the case, I would've left this board a long time ago.

However, I'll watch the use of "overrated" ... but I think this is being blown out of porportion.
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post #4 of 66
8/27/06 at 8:21pm
There is no hyphen in "overrated."
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post #5 of 66
8/27/06 at 8:37pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serpent

There is no hyphen in "overrated."

Thank you very much, Serpent.
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post #6 of 66
8/27/06 at 9:01pm
Hm, instead of using the word overrated, perhaps using the phrase, "I just do not like this scent personally" or something along those lines. When you say a fragrance is overrated, you are making a generalization that the scent isn't really that good as some people believe. In doing this you are doing so in a way that implies to other members that the scent is just not a good one and there must be something wrong with them if they do like said scent.

Is it a big deal? Of course not. However it could make everything smoother in the long run and there would be less arguements on the board, and I think that's what we all want.

-Ben
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post #7 of 66
8/27/06 at 9:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by zztopp

I think the term "over-rated" applies when a fragrance is rated positively by many, talked about a lot, or sells a lot (or all three).

Just because many people rate a fragrance positively it becomes "overrated"? I call that "popular". "Overrated" is when i impose my tastes and preferences over those of others as being the right one.
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post #8 of 66
8/27/06 at 9:02pm
Seriously, it's one step from this to, "Well, posters should really watch it with negative comments about fragrances. After all, you might not like a certain fragrance, but someone else does, and so you could hurt someone's feelings by writing something bad about a scent. Like your mother always told you: If you can't say something nice about a fragrance, don't say anything at all!"

And just for the record: Green Irish Tweed is totally overrated.
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post #9 of 66
8/27/06 at 9:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serpent

Seriously, it's one step from this to, "Well, posters should really watch it with negative comments about fragrances. After all, you might not like a certain fragrance, but someone else does, and so you could hurt someone's feelings by writing something bad about a scent. Like your mother always told you: If you can't say something nice about a fragrance, don't say anything at all!"

And just for the record: Green Irish Tweed is totally overrated.


If thats the case I don't think we would see much of you Serpent!
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post #10 of 66
8/27/06 at 9:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serpent

Seriously, it's one step from this to, "Well, posters should really watch it with negative comments about fragrances. After all, you might not like a certain fragrance, but someone else does, and so you could hurt someone's feelings by writing something bad about a scent. Like your mother always told you: If you can't say something nice about a fragrance, don't say anything at all!"

And just for the record: Green Irish Tweed is totally overrated.

No way Serpent!
I love reading your rants and the reason i like it so much is because it is entertaining to me and doesn't make me feel like you've just put my own tastes/preferences down. You can keep on writing as many negative reviews you like, i'll keep reading them, even when they're about Laguna!
You've not written about Laguna yet i think and when you do, we can have a nice discussion about it.
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post #11 of 66
8/27/06 at 9:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiritussancti

If thats the case I don't think we would see much of you Serpent!

Ain't that the damn truth. I definitely won't have a seat at this pretty little tea party...
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post #12 of 66
8/27/06 at 9:17pm
I totally see what you're saying, & I agree. It's one thing to not like a particular fragrance, but it's another say it's "overrated" (or something similar). It makes it sound like an insult to anyone who likes the scent. I try to be considerate.
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post #13 of 66
8/27/06 at 9:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by milamber

You've not written about Laguna yet i think and when you do, we can have a nice discussion about it.

Well, I've not gotten my hands on Laguna Homme. It's not an easy one to get one's hands on to sample.

And not all of my reviews are negative. I seem to have a reputation as he who loves to rip up a scent, but I love nothing more than finding a quality, original fragrance. Unfortunately, there just don't seem to be many of those around these days...
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post #14 of 66
8/27/06 at 9:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serpent

Seriously, it's one step from this to, "Well, posters should really watch it with negative comments about fragrances. After all, you might not like a certain fragrance, but someone else does, and so you could hurt someone's feelings by writing something bad about a scent. Like your mother always told you: If you can't say something nice about a fragrance, don't say anything at all!"

And just for the record: Green Irish Tweed is totally overrated.


LOL, and HEY! @ the GIT comment

Look guys, I used the term overrated (and unwearable) to describe Tea For Two. Someone took it to mean that I was implying that I know better, and that the people who like and wear it are morons. Far from it. The interesting thing is that when Kouros (a personal favorite of mine and a true classic) was being dissed as a urinal cake by many of the members, didnt that indicate that those members were implying that the millions of people around the world who wear and enjoy Kouros don't know better? Infact, that allusion to "urinal-cakes" is far more insulting than calling the current darling Tea for Two as "overrated".

For sure, people will agree/disagree on fragrances, and we cant expect each and every member to put down their thoughts on this forum so as to be sure not to "offend" each and every member (5000 and counting...right?). Ofcourse, some comments can be clearly regarded as offensive (cuss words, personal attacks, etc) - but there are also some subtle boundaries, and things arent clear. Also, there are some members here whose first language isnt english.

As I said, the only true way to judge a fragrances quality is to have a recognised third party which is held in high regard by the people who "love" and "dont love" the fragrances. A recognized nose, or a FiFi foundation award. Even then, your personal opinion will trump their recognition or comments.

So lets enjoy the discussion and the fragrances...and avoid using the word "overrated"!
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post #15 of 66
8/27/06 at 9:46pm
There are certain scents that get caught up in a wave of hype here. We all know it. Scents like Green Irish Tweed, Millésime Impériale, Piper Nigrum, Stardust for Men, Terre d'Hermès, even some lower-priced ones like Rive Gauche pour Homme and Bulgari Black - the notorious Golden Calves. They're those scents that just consume the board for weeks and weeks. The fragrances are omnipresent. Everyone's posting and posting and posting on them. Everyone's buying a bottle, no matter the ridiculous price. Lately, M7 Fresh has been the latest most likely Golden Calf candidate. A whiff of exclusivity, a group of positive reviews coming in, and suddenly a snowball of hype builds.

"Overrated" does not, in my usage, mean that a scent is not necessarily good. It means that it has a rush of hype behind it that the scent does not live up to. Is this a valid assessment to make? Yes. I feel it is. It's not a term I use lightly, but, when I use it, there is weight and purpose behind it.
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post #16 of 66
8/27/06 at 10:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by milamber

Just because many people rate a fragrance positively it becomes "overrated"? I call that "popular". "Overrated" is when i impose my tastes and preferences over those of others as being the right one.

That's the difference exactly and also the reason why I find it hard to take seriously the posts/threads overdosing the term "overrated". It's basically just another way of saying "I think _ _ (insert the name of any scent here) is crap and anyone who doesn't share my view is an idiot and/or lacks taste".
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post #17 of 66
8/27/06 at 10:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serpent

"Overrated" does not, in my usage, mean that a scent is not necessarily good. It means that it has a rush of hype behind it that the scent does not live up to. Is this a valid assessment to make? Yes. I feel it is. It's not a term I use lightly, but, when I use it, there is weight and purpose behind it.

All those scents that are "hyped" have good valid reasons to be "hyped" in that many people genuinely belief them to be great scents, so in my opinion, they are not "overrated" because many basenoters truly like them. And when another basenoter says they don't like it and goes against the grain, i expect that as a matter of course. People are not all similar. But if that person calls it "overrated" then he/she is making a statement against the justification for the fragrance's popularity which in this case would be the taste/perceptions of all those basenoters who support the fragrance to begin with, people who do rate the fragrance.
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post #18 of 66
8/27/06 at 10:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by milamber

All those scents that are "hyped" have good valid reasons to be "hyped" in that many people genuinely belief them to be great scents, so in my opinion, they are not "overrated" because many basenoters truly like them.

Is this always so? I would disagree. Most of the scents that get a big momentum of hype here are more than - or other than - good-smelling fragrances. They are fragrances that are also relatively hard-to-find, expensive, and have a some sort of famous perfumer attached. No one ever seems to be attaching the "overrated" label to anything one can find at Macy's, for example. The fact that things are hard-to-get and pricey is a tremendous enticement for many people.

But this is something that is often overlooked here. Basenoters as a group love to dote on the expensive and rare scents, and many times these scents' only main virtues are that they are expensive and rare. (That would make them, well, "overrated.") And the one thing they hate is having this pointed out to them. That ol' emperor just hates to find out he's nekkid...
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post #19 of 66
8/27/06 at 11:07pm
Thanks Chris for attempting to clear the air here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by milamber

All those scents that are "hyped" have good valid reasons to be "hyped" in that many people genuinely belief them to be great scents, so in my opinion, they are not "overrated" because many basenoters truly like them. And when another basenoter says they don't like it and goes against the grain, i expect that as a matter of course. People are not all similar. But if that person calls it "overrated" then he/she is making a statement against the justification for the fragrance's popularity which in this case would be the taste/perceptions of all those basenoters who support the fragrance to begin with, people who do rate the fragrance.

I think we're starting to split hairs. I don't see the difference between saying something like, "despite popular opinion, I don't like X" and saying "X is overrated." They are both saying essentially the same thing: I know this is popular, well-thought-of, highly rated, and so forth, but I think it's not as great as everyone is saying (I may even think it's crap). I see both as subjective statements. Of course, I rarely take anyone seriously who tries to speak "objectively."

As far as popular opinion being a valid reason for hype, isn't that kind of circular, as in: a lot of people say they like it, therefore that means a lot of people like it. For me hype is about more than people just liking something. Hype is about something being liked because of popular opinion, aka group-think, which is a pretty well documented sociological phenomenon. I think when someone uses the term overrated, they are implying that some form of group-think or mass frenzy is occurring. That's a valid criticism, and probably does occur with many frags. There's always a darling of the moment that later no one cares about anymore. It falls upon those who like the frag to defend why they like it (or to just let it go). The important thing is the tone of the comments. A sarcastic or dismissive tone (both of which I frequently see on these boards) stifles the conversation and insults the participants. But such a tone just shows the juvenile nature of the one who posted it.

In the end, I think the real solution is for folks to not get personally offended when someone says that something is overrated, or in fact, when someone says that they just don't like a scent. It happens in both cases. I've seen folks freak just because someone criticized a scent, as a scent, without resorting to ad hominem attacks of any kind (even implied ones). Maybe a little thicker skin is needed around here. And even when someone does post something that is dismissive or sarcastic or flat-out rude, those on the other end should be the bigger people and respond with facts and opinion, rather than become defensive and escalate the ad hominem attacks. (I'm not speaking as a guru here - I'm sure I've been guilty of becoming defensive myself.)

BTW, I like T42 quite a bit, it's one of my favorite L'Artisans...but I took no offense at ZZ's statement, even though I noted a bit of sarcasm and bite to it. I took no offense, because I like T42 and will continue to like it regardless of what ZZ says about it. I also don't expect him to like it just because I do, or because some large number of people do. Though I think his post would have been more effective in engendering genuine conversation had it not come across as sarcastic.
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post #20 of 66
8/27/06 at 11:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serpent

Most of the scents that get a big momentum of hype here are more than - or other than - good-smelling fragrances. They are fragrances that are also relatively hard-to-find, expensive, and have a some sort of famous perfumer attached.
Basenoters as a group love to dote on the expensive and rare scents, and many times these scents' only main virtues are that they are expensive and rare.

Exactly! The word "overrated" reveals so much about what the user thinks of the people who love the frag doesn't it? They're gullible or have no mind of their own and thus led by a famous perfumer, or snobs or pretentious or have poor taste. There is no way of really, precisely knowing all that especially in a faceless community like the internet forums. So i prefer to assume that people have tried the frag and actually like it for what it is. At least i can be sure both you and i analyse the juice itself and not other factors.
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post #21 of 66
8/27/06 at 11:26pm
As a lover of the famous/infamous Kouros I have gone through various phases with the daily discussions about it. I felt like a Basenotes victim, a marter at times. But the moment had to come when I recognized basic elements of group hysteria in the phenomenon, and now I have grown immune, I think. In my experience the term over- and underrated are about the most neutral words we can find. They mostly describe my disagreement with an anonymos, common verdict concerning any fragrance. The problem seems to be that some people read them to also include snobistic criticism of other peoples' taste etc., and thus feel offended. This implied meaning is news to me.

'Overrated' is a term that I have never considered as hurtful. I do not remember having used the word myself much, but I certainly would, did I feel an urge writing about some (Mugler, Dior, whatever ...) fragrance which has no place in my world, but seems to be as popular as the proverbial Creeds here. I usually think, I do not understand certain scents when the whole world seems to love them, and I can't. Now 'underrated' is just the opposite term - using that does not seem to hurt anybody, does it?

Rating is desirable I think. Rating and voting on fragrances are highly subjective matters. I must have appropriate words to express whether I like the result of a single rating or the bulk of them.

What would be better words to replace 'over-' or 'underrated'?

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post #22 of 66
8/27/06 at 11:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by narcus

Now 'underrated' is just the opposite term - using that does not seem to hurt anybody, does it?

A very good point. I feel MPG fragrances are "underrated"
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post #23 of 66
8/27/06 at 11:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by robyogi

I think we're starting to split hairs. I don't see the difference between saying something like, "despite popular opinion, I don't like X" and saying "X is overrated." They are both saying essentially the same thing...

I think you've answered that with this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by robyogi

... i noted a bit of sarcasm and bite to it.

I would not feel any bite or sarcasm to "I don't like ______." or "despite popular opinion, i don't like X". In fact, the second statement sounds so much more respectful and i like it. Very gentlemanly in fact... Cool.
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post #24 of 66
8/27/06 at 11:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by narcus

As a lover of the famous/infamous Kouros I have gone through various phases with the daily discussions about it. I felt like a Basenotes victim, a marter at times. But the moment had to come when I recognized basic elements of group hysteria in the phenomenon, and now I have grown immune, I think.

Nicely written, and you soldiered on, my friend - and now you are stronger and better for it !
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post #25 of 66
8/27/06 at 11:39pm
I only ever give two reasons for a scent being overrated, based on the premise that this is a site for Male Fragrance, and that such a fragrance should perform better than some household air freshener.

Thus my reasons are,
a. Does not last long enough, and
b. Is low or devoid of any of the typical masculine ingredients, or doesn't smell particularly masculine.

I usually then get some argument that the scent in question lasts forever on them (fair enough comment, worthy of note) or that short lived scents are fine (not fair enough, in my opinion, on a bottle that clearly states EDT on it).

Then I get the other response that there is no such a thing as masculine or feminine scents - a nugatory argument as far as I'm concerned - as 95 to 99% of the scent buying public do see it my way, as evidenced by the dollars they spend.
Renato
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post #26 of 66
8/28/06 at 12:01am
Let me just say this: Everyone should be able to separate a criticism of a fragrance from a personal criticism. When someone writes, "I don't like this scent" or "I think this is overrated" (Gasp!), no one should be taking it to mean, "I don't like people who wear or like this scent." Unfortunately, some people identify their fragrances quite closely with their identities, and they take fragrance reviews very personally. Perhaps saying a scent is overrated isn't the best way to critique a scent, but there are times it may be a valid criticism. More importantly, proposing such self-censorship is the first step down a dangerous path.

My favorite fragrance is Kingdom, a scent that has had some of the meanest, nastiest things written about it, including by myself. Do those things faze me? Not in the least. When people are afraid to express their true opinions for fear of hurting other's feelings, that's going to lead to a really bland, uninteresting reading experience. "Come to Basenotes, the board where every fragrance is just peachy keen great!"

Instead of worrying about hurting people's feelings with our fragrance opinions, maybe we should all just be adults. Our fragrances shouldn't make us who we are, and other people's opinions of them even less so.
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post #27 of 66
8/28/06 at 12:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by narcus

As a lover of the famous/infamous Kouros I have gone through various phases with the daily discussions about it. I felt like a Basenotes victim, a marter at times.


And for that i'm sorry because i don't detect the urinal cake/piss note in it at all and did nothing. I wanted to write something about that infamous note, but always i just put it off. Why is it the onus of the victim to always tolerate things? Why should the victim be the ones "getting stronger" due to their tolerance? While we continue to tolerate, things won't improve. Sorry it took this long.

Quote:

What would be better words to replace 'over-' or 'underrated'?


Underrated - Hey guys, i've just discovered this new scent called X. It's great. Doesn't get much review so i'll give try my best to review it.........

Overrated - You guys really love this stuff! I haven't wamed up to it yet but then again, i'm not partial to a sandalwood note above a vanillic accord.
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post #28 of 66
8/28/06 at 1:29am
There are enough self congratulatory fragrance sites already. I would regret if Basenotes got streamlined all too much. But nobody should abuse any thread to be aggressive and hurtful, of course not!

Test: a) "Acqua di Gio is vastly overrated in general, I conclude that from sales statistics." "Armani Colognes are generally underrated within Basenotes. I take that from looking back at topics." - Would those be fair statements reflecting observations I made? Would that also say anything about the millions of buyers, and some hundred Basenoters ?

All I mean to say is : 'I love AdG less than a majority of people', and ' Basenoters (seem to) appreciate Armani scents less than I do.' It does say more about myself than about others. I could not possibly state anything beyond known facts and myself, the only psyche I know well!

If subject terms are commonly understood as hurtful, then I must do without them. But for concise comments we need a replacement, and hopefully that is another word, not a full sentence for reassurance of friendly intentions. That could be quite suffocating too.
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post #29 of 66
8/28/06 at 1:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serpent

Unfortunately, some people identify their fragrances quite closely with their identities, and they take fragrance reviews very personally.

Possibly, but that is another assumption too.
Quote:
Perhaps saying a scent is overrated isn't the best way to critique a scent, but there are times it may be a valid criticism.

Agreed, when it is in reference to how media can skew the results of a survey for example. I have no problem with the way you use it as you qualify your words clearly.

Quote:
More importantly, proposing such self-censorship is the first step down a dangerous path.

It's never been about censorship. If anything, it's been about writing more and being clear in expression whether it is negative or positive comments so that we don't "accidentally" hurt others with what we say. That's being an adult. Kids just say the first thing that come to their mind. They don't know any better. Adults do and they respect others. That's all.
I've said my peace on this matter.
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post #30 of 66
8/28/06 at 1:51am
I can take a beating for Mark Birley!
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post #31 of 66
8/28/06 at 4:38am
Excellent thread so far guys! I especially want to praise Serpent and robyogi here. You put words on my own thoughts on this subject really. Serpent, I must say that I applaud you for being bold for saying things I bet many of us here think but never say, I think you only speak the truth (even though I can see why some people get defensive over your words every now and then).

Now it is time for work, later guys.
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post #32 of 66
8/28/06 at 5:56am
This thread brings to my mind a recent thread in which people complained about "misleading" reviews, the neverending Kouros debates and all those "Live Jazz - what a disappointment" threads.

Why is it that only negative opinions are considered to be honest?

If something is popular and well-liked, it suddenly seems to mean that that something must be "overrated" and "overhyped".

If the majority of the reviews are positive, the people who have written them are actually accused of lying! (Yes, I know how absurd that sounds but it really did take place in one of the a/m threads)

If on the other hand someone proclaims that something "smells like pee" (or poo, take your pick), or is "overrated", his/her "honesty" is being applauded.
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post #33 of 66
8/28/06 at 7:21am
Something that I think the Basenotes community can benefit from is a little more criticism. I tend to say nothing about scents that I don't like, but maybe I should start putting in my $.02.

I hate to watch the rise and fall of Golden Calves. I tried like hell to appreciate some GC's over the years until I recognized the phenomenon as hype that dies down with time. When I didn't like the Golden Calf, I though maybe there was something wrong with me. Maybe my taste wasn't as sophisticated as everyone else's. I think the GC is a group think phenomenon and those who dislike the current craze juice might mitigate the GC effect by speaking up a little more. Nobody wants to rain on the parade when the community at large seems to be in love with a scent, but time and again these love affairs are nothing but a season long fling for all but a few true believers. Don't get me wrong - I'm guilty too. You tend not to notice when you like the GC.

As for "under-/overrated" as descriptors, I think they are fine. Of course, there are a lot of connotations for those words and we aren't going to settle on one that is the official BN interpretation of the word "overrated". However, I think there is nothing wrong with saying a scent is overrated when it seems to be loved by all and hated by none. Or when it pops up in EVERY recommendation thread for 2 months without fail. Time has shown that there is no scent that is right for everyone. When it seems that everyone DOES like a scent, that should trigger a warning that it is being overrated - or rather underbashed.

I should point out that I have no problem liking "overrated" scents. I rate them exactly right for me and other peoples' opinions have no effect on mine (at least I hope not, I suppose you never know). I'm going to do my part to up the ante on negative review though - to kind of temper the hype on things that I don't see the hype in. Honesty cannot hurt, right? I have always found BN to be the most polite forum I have ever read and I'm certain we can be a little more critical without hurting anyone's feelings.
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post #34 of 66
8/28/06 at 7:29am
I think when talking about over or under-rating a fragrance one shouldn't get a critical opinion mixed up with a personal one. Saying something is icky or smells like (insert pejorative) is not a critical opinion. It is strictly related to your experience with the fragrance and personal preference. Speaking about the craft and or artistic success of a fragrance is a different matter entirely and I think there the discussion of its rating and whether or not it is deserving of such is completely applicable. As an example: Do I like/enjoy Citizen Kane? No, I find it boring. Is it overrated? No, the technique, innovation and mastery of filmic art are evident. It's a work of genius that I simply don't enjoy. I think it's perfectly fine to express that though a fragrance/film/artwork is generally lauded you disagree on the merits of the work with the adulation. I also think that you can't consider too heavily peoples feelings when attempting to address something critically. One is addressing not the admirers of a work but the work itself. And please feel free to rebut. If you say that you find Dali underrated as a painter or Lalique underrated as a fragrance and I then challenge that on its merit that is how lively critical discussion happens. I think the key is to remember to speak intelligently about the merits/success of a piece of work and not to use the term as a method of dismissing something.
m
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post #35 of 66
8/28/06 at 7:49am
Sorri, perhaps it's my overrated inglish, butt I don't understand this thread.
Is this the abuse clinic?
Please, more smile when someone's taste is different from what we think of frags. The problems always come when we take it too seriously.
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post #36 of 66
8/28/06 at 8:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DustB

(Will someone help me with punctuation? Am I right to hyphenate over-rating or is it one word?)

Members of this board have scents they love. Those members are happy to tell other members about those scents, and about their love of them--we wouldn't have a board if this weren't true! Many members share the same love of the same scents, so they agree. Members also have loves of different scents from other members, obviously.

I think members posting threads, posts, and commentary in general should think over the use of the term "overrated." Maybe they can explain more about what they mean when they use it, as in X fragrance enjoys a lot of popularity here recently, but not with me!

I know I don't overrate the scents I love, because I love them.

Disclaimer: (I hate writing what I'm NOT saying, since I like to write what I AM saying and have people evaluate what I AM rather than what I'm NOT saying. However I'm not saying don't use the term on the board, hell, I say express yourself. Be disrespectful if that's what you're about. But when you use the term overrate, you're in the same boat as someone else on the board--you've got scents you rate highly that others don't. What I AM saying is think it over.

Thank you everyone for reading and thinking over this post.
--Chris

EDIT: Grammatical corrections made--"overrate," no hyphen.


I've been saying this for months!

I'm glad someone else has voiced the same opinion.

To me saying a fragrence is overrated is in a way stating your opinion as fact. The term overrated has the conotation of saying that "my opninion is more valid than those that like fragrence X". Instead of saying "in my opinion fragrence X is not good".

Wouldn't it follow that anyone could say that any fragrence they don't like that others do is overrated?
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post #37 of 66
8/28/06 at 10:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by pesurf

To me saying a fragrence is overrated is in a way stating your opinion as fact. The term overrated has the conotation of saying that "my opninion is more valid than those that like fragrence X". Instead of saying "in my opinion fragrence X is not good".

Wouldn't it follow that anyone could say that any fragrence they don't like that others do is overrated?

I'm not in agreement here. I could just as easily say "my opinion is that this is overrated." Then I am clearly stating it as an opinion, not a fact, and we're back at the same point. All statements should be taken as statements of opinion - what else could they be? Why take it personally, as though the poster was trying to assert an objective view that undermines others' opinions? Anyone attempting to make statements of fact about opinion matters should be seen as looney anyway. Certainly we can make objective statements about composition or history, but that's not what we're talking about here. Overrated refers to an opinion about the general group's consensus (aka opinion) about a frag. Saying something is overrated is saying "I disagree with the consensus opinion on this frag," and maybe even, "I think the consensus is driven by something other than the actual frag itself." All of those are statements of opinion.

The solution to this seems to be twofold:

1) When posting remember that we're all here because we share an interest, maybe even a passion, for fragrance. So, at the very least, try to be respectful to other Basenoters when you post. That doesn't mean not using words like overrated or underrated to describe a frag. I still think those are valid opinions and/or valid criticisms of the phenomena we encounter in this community. It means not using those words to insult others or to dismiss others' opinions. It means not being dismissive of, or condescending and rude toward, other members (something that should go without saying for all posts, regardless of whether the term "overrated" is used). Maybe it means explaining what you mean in using the term "overrated," realizing that it's a hot button for some. The important thing here is the tone and direction - separate people from frags.

2) On the other hand, have a thicker skin when a fragrance, nose, or house you like gets slammed. It's going to happen. People are going to be rude to, or dismissive of, the frags you like and the designers of those frags. IMO, that just adds spice and zest to this board. Often our golden calves are, as Fat Tony pointed out, based solely on temporary hype. A term like "overrated" can expose the hype behind the worship. I would not want to be here if there were no posts that slammed some golden calves, even the ones I love. E.g., Noir Epices, Musc Ravageur, Piper Nigrum, and Cuir Mauresque get slammed around here all the time. That doesn't bother me because I am not my frags and I am not my opinion of my frags. I still love these regardless of what someone else thinks. It just makes me want to explain what it is that I love about these. And if someone slams me because I like a scent, then that just shows how juvenile their state of mind was at the time of their post. Sometimes people seem to identify too strongly with their frags or their opinion about their frags. Repeat after me..."I am not Dzing!; I am not my opinion of Dzing!"...
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post #38 of 66
8/28/06 at 11:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by robyogi

I'm not in agreement here. I could just as easily say "my opinion is that this is overrated." Then I am clearly stating it as an opinion, not a fact, and we're back at the same point. All statements should be taken as statements of opinion - what else could they be? Why take it personally, as though the poster was trying to assert an objective view that undermines others' opinions? Anyone attempting to make statements of fact about opinion matters should be seen as looney anyway. Certainly we can make objective statements about composition or history, but that's not what we're talking about here. Overrated refers to an opinion about the general group's consensus (aka opinion) about a frag. Saying something is overrated is saying "I disagree with the consensus opinion on this frag," and maybe even, "I think the consensus is driven by something other than the actual frag itself." All of those are statements of opinion.

The solution to this seems to be twofold:

1) When posting remember that we're all here because we share an interest, maybe even a passion, for fragrance. So, at the very least, try to be respectful to other Basenoters when you post. That doesn't mean not using words like overrated or underrated to describe a frag. I still think those are valid opinions and/or valid criticisms of the phenomena we encounter in this community. It means not using those words to insult others or to dismiss others' opinions. It means not being dismissive of, or condescending and rude toward, other members (something that should go without saying for all posts, regardless of whether the term "overrated" is used). Maybe it means explaining what you mean in using the term "overrated," realizing that it's a hot button for some. The important thing here is the tone and direction - separate people from frags.

2) On the other hand, have a thicker skin when a fragrance, nose, or house you like gets slammed. It's going to happen. People are going to be rude to, or dismissive of, the frags you like and the designers of those frags. IMO, that just adds spice and zest to this board. Often our golden calves are, as Fat Tony pointed out, based solely on temporary hype. A term like "overrated" can expose the hype behind the worship. I would not want to be here if there were no posts that slammed some golden calves, even the ones I love. E.g., Noir Epices, Musc Ravageur, Piper Nigrum, and Cuir Mauresque get slammed around here all the time. That doesn't bother me because I am not my frags and I am not my opinion of my frags. I still love these regardless of what someone else thinks. It just makes me want to explain what it is that I love about these. And if someone slams me because I like a scent, then that just shows how juvenile their state of mind was at the time of their post. Sometimes people seem to identify too strongly with their frags or their opinion about their frags. Repeat after me..."I am not Dzing!; I am not my opinion of Dzing!"...


Excellent post.

You have elaborated on points which arent just limited to being applied only when discussing fragrances, but are applicable to negotiation and discussion matters in all situations and domains.
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post #39 of 66
8/28/06 at 11:14am
When I rate something using the star system, I do include whether or not the frag appeals to me specifically or not...something that helps me distinguish between scents I find good quality and don't really think fits my personality/taste vs. scents that I find good quality that specifically appeal to me. This is why sometimes I'll give a 5 star rating to something that I know would get less stars from someone who could respect it and thinks it's good, but doesn't appeal specifically to them. I am constantly re-evaluating my stuff because of this and consequently, ratings fluctuate.
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post #40 of 66
8/28/06 at 11:20am
...
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post #41 of 66
8/28/06 at 11:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by robyogi

.......

1) When posting remember that we're all here because we share an interest, maybe even a passion, for fragrance. So, at the very least, try to be respectful to other Basenoters when you post. That doesn't mean not using words like overrated or underrated to describe a frag. I still think those are valid opinions and/or valid criticisms of the phenomena we encounter in this community. It means not using those words to insult others or to dismiss others' opinions. It means not being dismissive of, or condescending and rude toward, other members (something that should go without saying for all posts, regardless of whether the term "overrated" is used). Maybe it means explaining what you mean in using the term "overrated," realizing that it's a hot button for some. The important thing here is the tone and direction - separate people from frags.

2) On the other hand, have a thicker skin when a fragrance, nose, or house you like gets slammed. It's going to happen. People are going to be rude to, or dismissive of, the frags you like and the designers of those frags. IMO, that just adds spice and zest to this board. Often our golden calves are, as Fat Tony pointed out, based solely on temporary hype. A term like "overrated" can expose the hype behind the worship. I would not want to be here if there were no posts that slammed some golden calves, even the ones I love. E.g., Noir Epices, Musc Ravageur, Piper Nigrum, and Cuir Mauresque get slammed around here all the time. That doesn't bother me because I am not my frags and I am not my opinion of my frags. I still love these regardless of what someone else thinks. It just makes me want to explain what it is that I love about these. And if someone slams me because I like a scent, then that just shows how juvenile their state of mind was at the time of their post. Sometimes people seem to identify too strongly with their frags or their opinion about their frags. Repeat after me..."I am not Dzing!; I am not my opinion of Dzing!"...

I concur with zztopp this is an well-put post by robyogi. It would be boring if people did not have radical views about frags sometimes. I have have loved reading some of the arguments about Kouros for example; as long as the banter is kept at a reasonable level, it can be fun and make the board more interesting to read.

I must confess myself to having said some quite awful, and possibly even dismissive comments about certain fragrances from time to time on here, but they are my opinions toward products, not my feelings towards any person. And we all after all come on here to share our opinions don't we?

The important thing robyogi has pointed out, that is indeed essential for any talk board to work well is "not being dismissive of, or condescending and rude toward, other members". Totally agree!
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post #42 of 66
8/28/06 at 11:50am
The word "overrated" is way overrated.
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post #43 of 66
8/28/06 at 2:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by robyogi

I'm not in agreement here. I could just as easily say "my opinion is that this is overrated." Then I am clearly stating it as an opinion, not a fact, and we're back at the same point. All statements should be taken as statements of opinion - what else could they be? Why take it personally, as though the poster was trying to assert an objective view that undermines others' opinions? Anyone attempting to make statements of fact about opinion matters should be seen as looney anyway. Certainly we can make objective statements about composition or history, but that's not what we're talking about here. Overrated refers to an opinion about the general group's consensus (aka opinion) about a frag. Saying something is overrated is saying "I disagree with the consensus opinion on this frag," and maybe even, "I think the consensus is driven by something other than the actual frag itself." All of those are statements of opinion.

The solution to this seems to be twofold:

1) When posting remember that we're all here because we share an interest, maybe even a passion, for fragrance. So, at the very least, try to be respectful to other Basenoters when you post. That doesn't mean not using words like overrated or underrated to describe a frag. I still think those are valid opinions and/or valid criticisms of the phenomena we encounter in this community. It means not using those words to insult others or to dismiss others' opinions. It means not being dismissive of, or condescending and rude toward, other members (something that should go without saying for all posts, regardless of whether the term "overrated" is used). Maybe it means explaining what you mean in using the term "overrated," realizing that it's a hot button for some. The important thing here is the tone and direction - separate people from frags.

2) On the other hand, have a thicker skin when a fragrance, nose, or house you like gets slammed. It's going to happen. People are going to be rude to, or dismissive of, the frags you like and the designers of those frags. IMO, that just adds spice and zest to this board. Often our golden calves are, as Fat Tony pointed out, based solely on temporary hype. A term like "overrated" can expose the hype behind the worship. I would not want to be here if there were no posts that slammed some golden calves, even the ones I love. E.g., Noir Epices, Musc Ravageur, Piper Nigrum, and Cuir Mauresque get slammed around here all the time. That doesn't bother me because I am not my frags and I am not my opinion of my frags. I still love these regardless of what someone else thinks. It just makes me want to explain what it is that I love about these. And if someone slams me because I like a scent, then that just shows how juvenile their state of mind was at the time of their post. Sometimes people seem to identify too strongly with their frags or their opinion about their frags. Repeat after me..."I am not Dzing!; I am not my opinion of Dzing!"...

serpent and robyogi have spoken the truth since the beginning of this thread.

some people are here to argue for the purpose of discussion while some people are here for the purpose just to argue...

how can one say there is no such thing as an "overrated" scent or anything else for that matter, clearly the word was created to describe a phenomena that users of our language have encountered over the years ! if overratedness was a non existant concept, we wouldn't have this word in our language to begin with!

we can all stop using the word overrated to pretend to be cheery happy campers to eachother if we want but that won't make the concept of overrated scents go away.
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post #44 of 66
8/28/06 at 2:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigrushka

This thread brings to my mind a recent thread in which people complained about "misleading" reviews, the neverending Kouros debates and all those "Live Jazz - what a disappointment" threads.

Why is it that only negative opinions are considered to be honest?

Oh that was not how I meant it Tig, but maybe you weren't looking at my response here. I'll explain myself anyway. It sure is easier to jump on the bandwagon rather than off and I guess that is why at least I applauded mentioned members earlier. People often react too strongly when someone posts a view about a fragrance/house/nose if it differs a lot from the common opinion here, and I therefore think it takes some guts to stand up and say what you really think. I just love to read the rants about fragrances some people have here, as long as they are well formulated at least, of course even about fragrances I treasure myself. I don't want to miss that part of Basenotes' postings, just because members are afraid of stepping on each other's toes. This is why I just want to back them up a bit and let them know I really appreciate what they bring to the boards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tigrushka

If the majority of the reviews are positive, the people who have written them are actually accused of lying! (Yes, I know how absurd that sounds but it really did take place in one of the a/m threads)

If on the other hand someone proclaims that something "smells like pee" (or poo, take your pick), or is "overrated", his/her "honesty" is being applauded.

I think that "smells like pee" is as much bandwagon jumping as anything else really and is an easy way to join the crowd. Not very honest and applaudable to me, I'd rather read something with a bit more bite. I usually don't like when "overrated" is used to lightly, but backed up good I might agree. Others has said this already way better than I can.

Oh and it definately is absurd to be accused of lying when writing positive reviews though. That is just... well, absurd. I find it easier to praise than the other way around really so I guess I'm one of the liers then
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post #45 of 66
8/28/06 at 2:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by shifts

Oh that was not how I meant it Tig, but it is easier to jump on the bandwagon rather than off. People often react too strongly when someone posts a view about a fragrance if it differs a lot from the common opinion here. I just love to read the rants about fragrances some people have here, as long as they are well formulated at least. I don't want to miss that part of Basenotes' postings, just because members are afraid of stepping on each other's toes.



I think that "smells like pee" is as much bandwagon jumping as anything else really and is an easy way to join the crowd. Not very honest and applaudable to me. I usually don't "overrated" is used to lightly, but backed up good I might agree.

Oh and it definately is absurd to be accused of lying when writing positive reviews though. That is just... well, absurd. I find it easier to praise than the other way around really so I guess I'm one of the liers then

I think this thread would have more purpose if its message was to try and curb "bandwagon jumping" to either side, the gc lovers or the pee smell naysayers... than to try and cut down use of a legitimate criticism "overrated"
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post #46 of 66
8/28/06 at 2:57pm
I think that if you express a view as a personal one rather than writing as if your own opinion is gospel truth then no-one can get offended. It can be a bit contrived at times but on web boards where body language is invisible, a little extra care in how you express yourself can go a long way.
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post #47 of 66
8/28/06 at 3:44pm
I love cologne. And that's gospel.
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post #48 of 66
8/28/06 at 4:07pm
Thread Starter 
Ive been found out. DustBs plan for tyrannical Web site domination has been perceived. Step one was: ask members to think over what they mean when they write that scents are overrated. Step two: censorship and tea cakes! Hurray! Step three: tyranny!

Blast. Foiled again.

I want to thank members for their careful consideration of the request I posted. As the thread has gotten longer and had an abundance of comments by members I want to make a few comments about what I am NOT saying.

In no way is this a thread about negative reviews. Are you a member of Basenotes? If yes, it is your duty to your fellow members to write negative reviews. If you smell something that you dont like it is you duty upon logging in to tell fellow members that they should watch out for said disgusting smell. We serve each other with our knowledge and our thoughts here. We say when we dont like a scent and best of all, with reading a few reviews and seeing how people review, we can usually explain ourselves and our likes and dislikes. Review negatively. Call a stinker a stinker. Dont come to Basenotes for tea and scones. Put some meat into your posts. Make each post a thought that contributes.

Make the thinking about the scent in question though.

Another thing I am NOT sayingpeople identify with their scents and take it hard when the scents are negatively reviewed, thus we should protect those memberss feelings. Thats not the Basenotes way either. We dont protect members because their identities are wrapped up in a particular scent. Thats NOT what this thread is about and to argue it is to be on a tangent if not kept off course by a smokescreen.

What I AM saying:

The site is for discussing scent, good or bad, but NOT for attacking members for their taste or thoughts on scent. There are rules in Basenotess rule number eight on being respectful:

 Be respectful of others.
 Treat people how you wish to be treated.
 If someone doesn't have the same views as you, it does not make them a moron.

There isnt a rule on use of the overrated term and there shouldnt be. As one poster noted above, perhaps overrated isnt the best way to critique a scent. For me, this thread even shows why. Reading through the posts I can see that different members mean different things by the term. Some mean snobbery is involved. Some mean popularity is involved. So the word has different meanings and different uses. It can be used deliberately as well as innocently to be sarcastic and dismissive of other members. I started this thread because the word can be so loose I thought members should think over what they meant by it so that they could communicate their thoughts more clearly with other members. Sure, its a pain in the ass when you want one word to do the work of a whole sentence, I know thats true. It would be nice to have one word to use and everyone know its meaning. But that isnt working here. This one word has different meanings and isnt always serving its writers or readers as well as they would like.

Heres the most important thing I AM saying. Attack a scent in your commentary at the site, reader, but dont attack the tastes, knowledge, intelligence, savvy, experience, and appreciation of members who enjoy it. Look again at this thread. Members say up and down that they can handle discussion and attacks of the scents they love. Believe them. But dont attack people for their love of the scent. If someone doesnt have the same views as you it doesnt make them a moron. If they rate it higher than you it doesnt mean theyre a fool.

I called out overrated in starting this thread because it is an attack on the raters of the scent and not an attack on the scent itself. A scent doesnt rate itself, members rate it. Overrated attacks members for thinking highly of the scent.

Basenotes is a conversation. A conversation about scents. Come to the conversation and talk about scents, but respect fellow members, like in any conversation. Talk about scents. Be decent. Why should being decent lose?
--Chris
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post #49 of 66
8/28/06 at 4:49pm
There's quite a few points that have been made here and many of which I agree with, some of which I don't. I do agree that there is a bit of thin skin at times and people view attacks on a fragrance as a personal attack. However, you're dealing with people here who have a major passion for fragrance, this is going to be a byproduct of dealing with the interests here. People here are so into it that I can understand why people get upset. That's not to say I agree with it, in fact I think that people sometimes need to take a step back and realize that attacking a scent is not an attack on a person. This isn't really all that different from a music board, or a sports board, or any other discussion group that is focused around a group that borders on fanatical on any topic. Passion about a topic will lead to a passionate defense. Scents are a very important part of all of our lives. As a consequence, it's easy to view a scent as an extension of ourselves and will lead to a more intense defense of something that the wearer adores. While I don't think it's ideal, it's a reality of the climate we deal with.

There is however the whole arguement that makes me crazy that people here are solely motivated by snob appeal. Don't get me wrong, this does happen at times. However, while I do agree that can happen and cause people to give longer looks to fragrances that otherwise would have been cast aside, I also feel it's insulting to numerous people to imply that someone is solely motivated by pricetags and exclusivity. A scent can speak for itself and this argument will angry up the blood as it is no longer a criticism of a scent, but a criticism of the wearer, their motivation and an implication that they're driven solely by elitism. When it comes to this argument, this is where the overrated concept, which is not a personal criticism but an opinion on your views of a scent (and not the wearer), can lean on the side of a personal insult and will be replied to more harshly. Here's where lemming implication will rub someone the wrong way. Implying that the sole, or at least primary reason, someone likes a scent is due to elitism is a personal attack and I can't view it any other way. I can't fault people who view criticism like this as insulting to them, as I view it that way. It's not a matter of the the emperor wearing no clothes, it's a matter of someone making blanket generalizations about someone's motivations. That's where I feel the line is drawn and where conflict can begin.

Quite the spirited and interesting conversation here though
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post #50 of 66
8/28/06 at 5:04pm
I'm getting tired of myself, I'm just agreeing to everything written here. I agree!
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post #51 of 66
8/28/06 at 5:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DustB

Call a stinker a stinker.
--Chris

Hi Chris,
I've come across plenty of stinkers - but none, absolutely none - from either the design or niche or artisanal houses.

There have been quite a few I didn't like, two that I disliked intensely, many I thought were minor variations on the themes of the year or decade, but none of them were stinkers. In each case, if I thought about it, I could see that the perfumer was trying to achieve something, but that it just didn't always sit well with me - and I conjecture it may not sit well with many others.

The ones I label stinkers are the copy scents - where they've usually tried to copy other people's work, with inferior ingredients, bad execution, and often with ghastly results.

To my way of thinking, saying that something which people have put a lot of work into is a stinker, is too often mental laziness. Kind of like walking into an art gallery and calling Picasso's cubist paintings or Van Gough's impressionist paintings stinkers, because they don't look like the real thing. Or calling Gainsborough's paintings stinkers, because they only depict the real thing rather than the abstract.
Renato
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post #52 of 66
8/28/06 at 5:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DustB

Heres the most important thing I AM saying. Attack a scent in your commentary at the site, reader, but dont attack the tastes, knowledge, intelligence, savvy, experience, and appreciation of members who enjoy it. Look again at this thread. Members say up and down that they can handle discussion and attacks of the scents they love. Believe them. But dont attack people for their love of the scent. If someone doesnt have the same views as you it doesnt make them a moron. If they rate it higher than you it doesnt mean theyre a fool.

I called out overrated in starting this thread because it is an attack on the raters of the scent and not an attack on the scent itself. A scent doesnt rate itself, members rate it. Overrated attacks members for thinking highly of the scent.
--Chris

Doesn't this put a blanket assumption on the term overrated, and attack those who use it, so that anytime anyone uses the word, you'd be assuming that they mean to attack the tastes of others? And is it really an "attack" at all, or just a disagreement? Are all disagreements attacks? And if there are many uses and meanings of the word how can this blanket statement be true? And if someone MAY take it to be an attack on their tastes, is that really the responsibility of the poster?

Personally, if I were to use the word overrated, I would mean that I disagree with the consensus opinion. In practice, it's essentially the same as saying "you all like it, but I don't, and I don't think it warrants that much liking." Would that also be an "attack" in the sense that the above sentence is using the word "attack"?

It could also mean that I like the scent but think it is discussed too much, or raved about too often or too wildly. In all of these senses, I think the word is perfectly valid and without any attack quality. It's just a term of disagreement, and may be, as shifts has pointed out, a term of noncomformity.

I'm not sure it's a good idea to assume that all uses of the word are a personal attack. That in itself is putting intentions and motives to people, assigning blame where there may be none.
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post #53 of 66
8/28/06 at 5:41pm
This thread is so overrated.
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post #54 of 66
8/28/06 at 6:11pm
Thread Starter 
Robyogi,
Good points very well made.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robyogi

Doesn't this put a blanket assumption on the term overrated, and attack those who use it, so that anytime anyone uses the word, you'd be assuming that they mean to attack the tastes of others? And is it really an "attack" at all, or just a disagreement? Are all disagreements attacks?

No. I think the term has been used in a variety of different meanings: as an attack, all the other meanings about popularity on the thread, and most importantly, I think the term has been used cavalierly. As if its meaning is taken for granted. This thread shows it shouldn't be taken for granted.

Quote:
And if there are many uses and meanings of the word how can this blanket statement be true? And if someone MAY take it to be an attack on their tastes, is that really the responsibility of the poster?

A really good couple of questions and the crux of the matter. On one level I think you're right, there's a responsibility on the reader for when one MAY take it to be an attack. I'm guided however in large measure by Pesurf's post earlier on this thread, in which he says he's been saying the thread's point for months, and wants to ask, just who is a reviewer to tell me I've overrated my scent? Who is the objective one implied by a comment that something is overrated, and I guess I simply see it as a piece of arrogance by a reviewer claiming a scent is overrated. Even innocently, I'd say, when the term has come to be used cavalierly. I think the reader is in a position to ask the reviewer what meaning he/she has behind "overrated," as that's a fantastic way to better understanding between parties. A process I hope to further with this thread.

Quote:
Personally, if I were to use the word overrated, I would mean that I disagree with the consensus opinion. In practice, it's essentially the same as saying "you all like it, but I don't, and I don't think it warrants that much liking." Would that also be an "attack" in the sense that the above sentence is using the word "attack"?

Nope. I think discussion is clearly furthered by knowing more about what you mean.

Quote:
It could also mean that I like the scent but think it is discussed too much, or raved about too often or too wildly. In all of these senses, I think the word is perfectly valid and without any attack quality. It's just a term of disagreement, and may be, as shifts has pointed out, a term of noncomformity.

Think of all these meanings that could be behind your use of the term. As a reader wanting to know your thought, it would help me to know that you think a scent is discussed too much, raved about too often or too wildly so I would know what you mean. These meanings and the above ones are lost to me when the single term is used as such a wide umbrella.

Quote:
I'm not sure it's a good idea to assume that all uses of the word are a personal attack. That in itself is putting intentions and motives to people, assigning blame where there may be none.

We'll continue to use the term on the forum. New members will come and use it for certain. Nothing we can't handle. There isn't a rule question involved, and were we to agree on one, hypothetically, it wouldn't work. However, a) I don't want flamers to use it and hide behind it saying it's a legitimate reasoned comment and the issue is the flamed person's problem (I know we agree here, my friend), B) when used without attack, I want help knowing what the poster's meaning is. Used cavalierly, the word is only a black box, and one that has internal flaws in the sense of who's-this-reviewer-to-tell-me-I'm-overrating?.

We're all writers here. You can't be a member of Basenotes without writing. Writers can think over their words and consider a variety of factors on how to communicate their meaning.

I'm aware of the gray lines and areas involved and I'm afraid my wish that members think over this word appears like policy. I can't avoid that, but I think the thread shows powerfully that it is a loaded term and a hard one for us to unload. Those who can tell members what their meaning is in posts help their readers and help the site.

I hope I haven't messed up all the quote code markings.
Thanks for your superior post, Robyogi.
Best,
--Chris
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post #55 of 66
8/28/06 at 6:16pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serpent

This thread is so overrated.

Don't click it open. You've read the important stuff.
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post #56 of 66
8/28/06 at 6:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DustB

Don't click it open. You've read the important stuff.

hu-mor  /hyum-r or, often, yu-/

noun

1. a comic, absurd, or incongruous quality causing amusement: the humor of a situation.
2. the faculty of perceiving what is amusing or comical: He is completely without humor.
3. an instance of being or attempting to be comical or amusing; something humorous: The humor in his joke eluded the audience.
4. the faculty of expressing the amusing or comical: The author's humor came across better in the book than in the movie.
5. comical writing or talk in general; comical books, skits, plays, etc.
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post #57 of 66
8/28/06 at 6:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DustB

We're all writers here. You can't be a member of Basenotes without writing. Writers can think over their words and consider a variety of factors on how to communicate their meaning.

I'm aware of the gray lines and areas involved and I'm afraid my wish that members think over this word appears like policy. I can't avoid that, but I think the thread shows powerfully that it is a loaded term and a hard one for us to unload. Those who can tell members what their meaning is in posts help their readers and help the site.

--Chris

Chris while I agree with the points discussed so far, please consider that Basenotes is an international fragrance discussion forum (atleast I think it is). We have members representing every continent, and some are non-native english speakers. Sure, good, clear and concise writing is encouraged and pleasing to read, but in the future there might be further slip ups interms of proper usage of specific words. I am sure that many members try to convey their thoughts and opinions in the best way they can (most of the times, anyways), but slamming members' english in a public forum might make them wary of expressing their thoughts....or even scare them away from the site.

In that case, the solution that you have already proposed (that the people involved further query the person making the remark to elicit detailed comments which can nurture good natured critical discussion) can be useful.
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post #58 of 66
8/28/06 at 9:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DustB

If someone doesnt have the same views as you it doesnt make them a moron.
--Chris

Well, i have to disagree on this.






Just kidding!
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post #59 of 66
8/28/06 at 9:24pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renato

Hi Chris,
I've come across plenty of stinkers - but none, absolutely none - from either the design or niche or artisanal houses.

There have been quite a few I didn't like, two that I disliked intensely, many I thought were minor variations on the themes of the year or decade, but none of them were stinkers. In each case, if I thought about it, I could see that the perfumer was trying to achieve something, but that it just didn't always sit well with me - and I conjecture it may not sit well with many others.

The ones I label stinkers are the copy scents - where they've usually tried to copy other people's work, with inferior ingredients, bad execution, and often with ghastly results.

To my way of thinking, saying that something which people have put a lot of work into is a stinker, is too often mental laziness. Kind of like walking into an art gallery and calling Picasso's cubist paintings or Van Gough's impressionist paintings stinkers, because they don't look like the real thing. Or calling Gainsborough's paintings stinkers, because they only depict the real thing rather than the abstract.
Renato

Renato,
That sure is a very nicely made point on the risks of a casual dismissive word like Stinker. I'll be sure to use that for my next campaign.
--Chris
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post #60 of 66
8/28/06 at 9:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by shifts

People often react too strongly when someone posts a view about a fragrance/house/nose if it differs a lot from the common opinion here, and I therefore think it takes some guts to stand up and say what you really think.

Yes, but it takes even more guts the other way around: to be positive about and to openly like something that has been unanimously slaughtered here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shifts

Oh and it definately is absurd to be accused of lying when writing positive reviews though. That is just... well, absurd. I find it easier to praise than the other way around really so I guess I'm one of the liers then



The whole idea that someone must be lying in a positive review just because you don't happen to agree with it is just unbelievably illogical. Hello, what on earth could be the motivation to do something like that? To fool others to buy a stinky scent? Oh, sure! That must be it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by hirch_duckfinder

I think that if you express a view as a personal one rather than writing as if your own opinion is gospel truth then no-one can get offended.

Excellent point. If only people remembered that their personal opinion is not "The Truth and nothing but The Truth"...

Quote:
Originally Posted by DustB

Here’s the most important thing I AM saying. Attack a scent in your commentary at the site, reader, but don’t attack the tastes, knowledge, intelligence, savvy, experience, and appreciation of members who enjoy it. Look again at this thread. Members say up and down that they can handle discussion and attacks of the scents they love. Believe them. But don’t attack people for their love of the scent. If someone doesn’t have the same views as you it doesn’t make them a moron. If they rate it higher than you it doesn’t mean they’re a fool.

I called out “overrated” in starting this thread because it is an attack on the raters of the scent and not an attack on the scent itself. A scent doesn’t rate itself, members rate it. “Overrated” attacks members for thinking highly of the scent.

Basenotes is a conversation. A conversation about scents. Come to the conversation and talk about scents, but respect fellow members, like in any conversation. Talk about scents. Be decent. Why should being decent lose?

Very well put.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul G

There is however the whole arguement that makes me crazy that people here are solely motivated by snob appeal. Don't get me wrong, this does happen at times. However, while I do agree that can happen and cause people to give longer looks to fragrances that otherwise would have been cast aside, I also feel it's insulting to numerous people to imply that someone is solely motivated by pricetags and exclusivity. A scent can speak for itself and this argument will angry up the blood as it is no longer a criticism of a scent, but a criticism of the wearer, their motivation and an implication that they're driven solely by elitism. When it comes to this argument, this is where the overrated concept, which is not a personal criticism but an opinion on your views of a scent (and not the wearer), can lean on the side of a personal insult and will be replied to more harshly. Here's where lemming implication will rub someone the wrong way. Implying that the sole, or at least primary reason, someone likes a scent is due to elitism is a personal attack and I can't view it any other way. I can't fault people who view criticism like this as insulting to them, as I view it that way. It's not a matter of the the emperor wearing no clothes, it's a matter of someone making blanket generalizations about someone's motivations. That's where I feel the line is drawn and where conflict can begin.

Quite the spirited and interesting conversation here though

Another very good point to this conversation.
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