Oudhs - do they change our ideas of what ‘Orientals’ smell like?

Oud was the toughest note for me to get used to smelling. It still is, though less so than before. It tends to overpower the other notes in the fragrance, most likely because I am not used to smelling it. It's very exotic. I liken it to a warm, wet cloud of earthy, medicinal woodsiness that envelops the other notes. BTW, my favorite oud so far is MPG's Soir d'Orient. The oud seems to blend in a little better in that one. It's like Ambre Precieux with oud.

I had an experience smelling oud on someone else while doing some opinion research with devout Muslims. To my untrained nose, one lady was wearing something that smelled very much like Montale's Attar or Aoud Lime. I was really surprised at how close it smelled to the Montales. That said, my coworkers were not thilled with the scent, saying she smelled like medicine or, for some, that she just "stunk." I guess it was too exotic for their noses. I will say that we were indoors, in one small room, and her application was pretty heavy. I smelled it after she left the room, since we men didn't have contact with the female respondents.

I too would be interested in hearing the opinion of those who are familiar with eastern perfumes. How do the Montale's compare? Where do you place our vanillic/benzoin orientals in relation to those with oud?

I rally like the oud note in 10 Corso Como, enjoy it Soir d'Orient and Micallef has some oudh-based fragrances that are simply stunning but....
Someone mentioned to me that the Montale ouds had a scent quite like bandaids. From that moment, all I could smell was bandaids in them too. Oh well.

I certainly would like to know some opinions from somebody in the Middle East who has experienced the actual Oud's from there and Montale's Ouds.

I do know that Pierre Montale was in Saudi Arabia for 3 years and made fragrances for the main Royal family. That is where he got the Middle Eastern scent influence.

He also claims to be the first French perfumer to have an Oudh line.

By the way my nephew called me from India (he is visting there), and asked me if I wanted him to get anything from there. I asked him to get some samples of different (pure) Ouds from there.

AK3D (Aamir) a Basenotes member is also a good source for this. He sent me some samples also, thanks Aamir .

LOL....I actually just bought Montale Black Aoud & wanted to start a thread trying to find more information on what Aoud or Oud or whatever it's called really is.

What parts of the world is it found in and where does it come from. I heard inside trees and mostly in Southeast Asia but I could be wrong.

I'll also have to agree with Robyogi, Aoud is a really heavy note used in perfumes and sometimes I think it overpowers everything to a point where you can't smell the other notes.

BTW.....I think Black Aoud is a nice scent but I find it to be very simple but at the same time it's so damn addicting. It has this allure, so I was wondering....is Aoud an aphrodisiac?

I've sampled most of the Montales thanks to a 34 sample pack off ebay. I don't care for the oud note. For me, it smells like "brown bottle lysol" to quote a bn-er's young daughter. I kinda like the smell of lysol. My mom used to wash my sheets and blankets in it after I'd been sick with some virus. It smells like being clean, tired, afebrile, and feeling better. But...I don't want to wear it. I'd suppose in Arab countries it smells like luxury and leisure, wealth and status.

LOL !!! I have been warning everyone about Black Oud myself, it is very addicting, I am glad you agree with me

In answer to your question, yes it is found in South Asia.

The following information has been copied and pasted here from a Montale file I was given:

Fragranced ointment from Arabia extracted from oils from the Oud tree. A thousand-year-old, secret process, preserved in a cave for several years. Its subtlety and richness come from its vintage.

Sole perfume of Arabian kings and sultans since the dawn of time, with aphrodisiac properties.

The oud is used in oriental perfumery since the dawn of time. what is the oud? a fragranced ointment from arabia, extracted from the root of the oud tree, preserved in a cave for several years; by a secret process, we obtain the oud oil, a smokey mystic aphrodisiac scent.

Hope this answers your question

Now stop whining, go outside and open your letterbox. There is enough Oudh to stink up a few weeks of your life.

They where bought in a shop in Dubai, the boxes look like they're made for the richest man on earth. But everything is a question of taste isn't it?

I'm sorry but the names are a little difficult to read if you wish I can take pictures of the boxes and sent them to you.

But try first - you might be put off for the rest of your life.

all the best

EauxM

I find the oudhs obsessively addictive. Even though I can see all the points made about "brown bottle lysol", or "medicinal" or "band-aids". yep, i totally get that. i'll also add "sweaty feet" and "soured baby bottle nipples" to the list, because those have occured to me too.

and still it doesn't matter. oudh appeals to something that is beyond rational, for me. i can't get enough. even as it repels, i can't get enough of it. crazy, man.

Thank you for the links Narcus . It was very interesting to read that.

I really like oudh. I enjoy many of the Montales; my favorite to wear on myself is Aoud Rose Petals. (I know Aoud Queen Rose is the general favorite, and I do like this very much on others, but my chemistry works better with Rose Petals). I also like Aoud Cuir d'Arabie on myself, but it is even better on my husband; it's his favorite fragrance. I also really like Soir d'Orient. Through the generosity of a friend, I was able to sample some Arabian oudh perfumes. I absolutely adored a few of them; the rest were too heavy for my taste.

The extraction and refining of Oud is expensive by itself. There are various grades of trees and oils too. Since the middle eastern countries could typically afford the most 'expensive' stuff, Oud was directed towards there. A Grade oils are all exported from India and the far east to the ME, and they are very expensive. Here's a link I found.

http://www.fourgates.com/aloeswood.asp


Thanks Vijay, that was my pleasure.

Now, I've sampled some varieties of Oud, and I must say that it doesn't appeal to me all that much. Perhaps its because I find it common enough that people wear it in mosques. The same goes for sandalwood/rose etc. Oud mixed well with other fragrance ingredients really smells good, but it will still overpower everything else if not used carefully.

The most powerful oud I sampled was from a perfumer here - I just handled the cap of the bottle and the 'oud stink' lingered with me all day and all night. From that, I had a fair idea that it was not my cup of tea exactly. Vijay, I've tried black oud by Montale, and its so strongly diluted with the other ingredients. The closest fragrance that comes to mind is something called mukammal oud here, its a blend of rose/saffron/sandalwood/oud. It smells oudly (hehe pun ) similar to Montale's black oud. Prices I've seen range from less than a couple of dollars to hefty money for the good stuff (which isn't usually in stock, it has to be pre-ordered).

I always considered Pur Oriental to be a very masculine-smelling scent. Unfortunately, I've only smelled it from a sample, and I understand they've discontinued it now. More's the pity for me...

I have trouble believing that the oud used in Montale fragrances comes from Arabia extracted from oils from the Oud tree in a thousand-year-old secret process and preserved in a cave for several years. By the way, this statement comes from the Montale web site. I know it is very romantic to think that this is true, but it is probably more realistic to think of the Montale oud as a synthetic that was created in a laboratory. This is not to say that Montale fragrances are not fine, attractive fragrances, or that a synthetic oud cannot be an attractive addition to a perfume. It is just that I think that a fragrance companys advertising and public relations claims need to be viewed in a realistic light.

We have been through this same thing many times before with folks believing the romantic fantastical claims of various fragrance manufacturers, most notably with Creeds claims about Ambergris and Sandalwood in Green Irish Tweed, which is discussed and examined in this very detailed and informative thread (special thanks to Scentemental for his idol smashing efforts in this thread): http://community.basenotes.net/showthread.php?t=171223

Rockford, I clearly stated that, that statement was copied from a file Montale sent me. Judging from the links Narcus and AK3d referred to in this thread, all I can say is that it does not look like a highly secret process, but it does look that it is an expensive process to create these oils.

These companies do pay big money to professional people to write marketing stuff, and sure, every company sugarcoats their literature to make their product look enticing. Montale is no exception in doing that .

I will disagree with you on one aspect. I don't believe these are synthetics created in a lab, for one they would not be that expensive if they were, and most of all , when they list(advertise) the ingredients in their literature, it clearly states Cambodian Aoud, Arabian Aoud etc, etc. They would not be foolish enough to do any false advertising.

I am just saying that the same statement is also on the Montale web site at: http://www.parfums-montale.com/index.php?a=c&c=8



There is no one policing their advertising. They can say whatever they want in their advertising. The fact is that natural oud is too expensive for a perfume manufacturer to include in their perfumes. But, I repeat what I said in my previous post:

I respect your views Rockford, but now I am really curious about this. I will find out more whether they use real Ouds or synthetics from a lab. I don't believe they do, though. I have some contacts, and I will find out

Vijay, I bet they are using the real thing. I have smelled real oud before and the Montale oud series is very similar. As far as I know, oud wood isn't a protected species like whales are (ambergris) and so they can use the real thing. Creed on the other hand can't be using the real thing (it always makes me laugh when I hear a sales associate say that Creed only uses all natural ingredients...you mean, except for ambergris...oh, and musk...oh and...). Those species are protected. You can't use real musk or castorium, I am not sure about civet but I bet that is protected too. And have you seen the prices or real ambergris? Sure, it's a romantic story but what if it's all true? What if oud is made in a cave? Who really cares if it's made in a warehouse somewhere and they just call it a cave? It smells fantastic.

Keep an eye out for my Montale Oud series reviews on Perfume-Smellin' Things in a couple of weeks.

http://perfumesmellinthings.blogspot.com/

A little Oud goes a long way, its really really strong. As I've mentioned, I've smelled different grades of Oud oils, the difference to my untrained nose was mostly in their 'texture' and strength, the overall fragrance was very similar. The price also varies, they could be using medium grade oud oil, which is very good indeed, and not that expensive, comparatively (yet, costly enough to make their prices what they are).


Agreed, I smelled Montale's black oud and it was something very similar to the oud oils I'd smelled. Will look forward to your reviews.

I'll be in London later this week and I'll definitely check out this Arabian Oud store on Oxford Street. Yes, Montale ( thanks to Vijay ) got my interest in aouds and Black Aoud is what got me started.

http://www.streetsensation.co.uk/oxford/os_s17.htm

Smelling very similar doesn't mean it is real. For example, synthetic musk smells very similar to real musk.


The problem isn't whether or not oud is a protected species. The problem is that real oud is too rare and expensive to use in a fragrance that is mass produced and marketed.

Here is one example of a synthetic oud that is used in perfumes:
http://www.perfumersworld.com/prod_s...code_no=Ww7495

There are a number of links in this Basenotes thread that elaborate on the extreme rarity and expense of real oud:
http://community.basenotes.net/showthread.php?t=158398

I fell in love with the strong scent of oud years ago, when I was working in Muscat, Oman. Just smelled the wafts of it on the people, but didn´t think about bying one for me, but bought some thick and brown amberoil . The first time I smelled it again was - Montale! The last weeks I ordered a lot of (real) oriental parfums and drops of different ouds to test. Wow the latter are animalic stinky and if you are patient, they develop in interesting ways. I´m sure without doubt that Montale uses the real oud, he learned to work with the oud, and even it is more dilluted in his perfumes (he does perfume, not oil, most of the Moslems wear no alkohol!) compared with the arabian perfumes, it speakes a clear language: OUD. Montales sing the same melodies as perfumes of the east (with some new accords, of course), they are truly oriental....most of the marketed "Orientals" are as authentic as our dreams of "some beautyful exotic places somewhere in the east" can be. I don´t speak of Andy or Serge here). I´ll deepen my experience with arabian oils and ouds it is an exiting adventure for my nose and senses.

Don't Montale's ouds retail for about $200? At that price, it would certainly be possible to use real oud.. which is not to say that they necessarily do.

Perpetuating the myth that a perfume uses real oud instead of a laboratory created synthetic oud might be a way for a perfume manufacturer to justify the high price of the perfume.

The opinion of the following reviewer is that the Montale ouds are synthetic: http://boisdejasmin.typepad.com/_/20..._revie_11.html

The reviewer and the people commenting on this review state that it is not necessarily bad that synthetic oud is used instead of real oud. This is the same as my opinion that I have already expressed twice in this thread, and will now say again:

Folks, this is been a good discussion with a lot of interesting information and opinions. I probably won't be able to continue contributing to this thread, because I am going to be extremely busy this week with my work and other activities. I look forward to reading the rest of this thread when I do have some free time in the future.

Hello Narcus, Vijay, Rockford..

Following this thread (and also checking out the scentemental thread that rockford had provided which was very enlightening), I took a trip to my perfumer's today with a bunch of questions regarding Oud and Sandalwood. Here are *some* answers I got from him.

1) Qualities/types of Oud
He says that there are many grades of Oud. The best Oud is found in Burma, the next best quality is Indian produced and the third grade wood is found in Indonesia etc.
2) Oil Grading : The wood is first processed, and the premium oil is the first extract, and its the most expensive one and the *strongest*. This goes for very high prices and is mostly intended for the middle eastern market. Typically it can go to 5000$ a kg wholesale. Then, the SAME wood is reprocessed, and you get the second grade, and so forth.
3) Usage : Since Oud is so very powerful, even minute quantities of B grade or C grade oil can easily be used in a perfume without making it too expensive for mass consumption.
4) Synthetics : Yes rockford, synthetic ouds are in use as well, however side by side, there's a huge difference in the smell. Synthetic oil is a pale imitation of the real thing (more on this in a bit)
5) Certification (I asked this question mainly due to the scentemental thread wherein it was mentioned that true mysore sandalwood was certified). Now here, he laughed and said that many certifications could be faked easily, and the only thing that holds true is the trust between the buyer and seller in the market. While synthetics abound, its very easy for a trained nose to pick out the amount of dilution. We then checked out synthetic sandalwood and the pure mysore variety he had (damn expensive stuff that - over 2,500$, and he only had a little of it) and it was worlds apart. I do believe that one can tell synthetics apart from the real thing. Now, a question struck me and I asked him about true musk and musk synthetic. It turns out he has a very little sample of real musk at his workshop - he told me synthetic musk was not even a hundredth of the quality of the real thing, that's how magnificent it smelled, but unfortunately (or not), real musk isn't available anymore, and all that people in the industry have are samples of old.
6) Dilution in ouds : Most ouds (we're talking about oils all along, here) are diluted a fair bit, since they're very strong, that's what brings them to affordable levels for this particular market. For the Arabian/ME markets, they go to either very minute dilution or raw, and of course, the price goes up stratospherically too.

Finally, he sampled the Black Oud again for me, and we had some tea, after a while, and some bouts of sniffing, he said that it was mostly natural, with some mixed synthetic to *round* it off so that it didn't give the biting and rough quality that Oud has. To compare, we also sampled a synthetic oud (which is by itself is very nice, but nothing compared to raw ittar ul oud that I tried, a few drops of which would put a bunch of Kouros to flee!). One thing's for certain, you have to go on the word of the perfumer, as it is very hard for an untrained nose to tell apart a synthetic or a natural if its highly diluted. In pure form, Natural rules, the bottle was opened, and I could whiff the raw heady smell and it made me go . I was left wondering at the amount of sillage that would generate. Grin, the perfumer informed me that it would generate a trail that won't go away for days even if you just dabbed it onto your clothes. While when the synthetic was there, it wasn't so 'heady', while still good, you could instantly tell it apart.

Finally, Narcus - here, we do wear oud regularly, but again, its a sillage monster, even in diluted form, you can tell when a person who's wearing oud from some distance away . People also wear sandalwood/rose/saffron based fragrances on a regular basis. For prayers, many Muslims avoid alcohol based fragrances, preferring instead perfume oils. For the same reason, they will try and avoid most synthetics. Its a trust based thing, again, you have to take the word of your perfumer as to what's synthetic and what's not. They will not usually pass off a synthetic thing as a natural, since businesses are built up on trust.

Phew - end of rather long story (and I hope I didn't bore anyone), I had fun today thanks to this thread, and I came away with a teeny bottle of mixed oud.

(EDIT) : I had my own fragrance made there, something was lacking and guess what I used to round off the fragrance finally? . Heh heh.

Wow! Thanks a lot for the detailed information! So I´ll be careful with wearing my oudperfumes )) And that Montale uses the natural oud with some synthetic stuff sounds plausible.

Aamir thanks for all the leg work, I think we all appreciate your efforts .

I am still going to find out directly from them, I want to get to the botom of this, really curious now.

Aamir, great work. Thanks for all of the information. I am saving up for a full bottle. Get ready Vijay!!!

This has been an excellent topic of debate! I'm still wondering whether to venture into Montales.. Really, I just don't know which one to start with. Oh, and I'm still working my way through Serge Lutens :P

I own and love M7. I really, really enjoy the agarwood note in it but I was just wondering what you guys thought about M7 and the 'agarwood' that's in it. Real or fake? Is it a good representation of the real stuff?

Thanks guys

Although I like what they have to offer, I do not think that Ouds change our ideas about what orientals smell like. Far from it. I think they're relatively insignificant in the overall scope of perfumery.

I don't know about M7 , but I did find out about the Montale Ouds, whether they use the real Oud or synthetics. I promised you guys I would .

I gave the answer in a thread I started today, hope you guys had a chance to read that.

Ditto for any rare ingredient, yes.. musk, ambergris, sandalwood, jasmine, rose, you name it.

The point I was making was, given the cost of the perfume, the oud COULD be real, since at $200/bottle Montale can afford to use it.

Oh my dear! I received some more Montale samples and Oud Queen Rose and Oud Cuir d'Arabie have actually hit me! Wow! These two are awesome! Cuir d'Arabie IS the BEST leather I've come across yet! Sorry Knize Ten, sorry Cuir Mauresque, Cuiron and sorry REL. Lonestar Memories? No, too much anarchy ....

Oud Queen Rose is not as feminine as I expected it to be. If Angélique Encens can be worn by a male, Oud Queen Rose can be as well IMO. Both for evening wear of course or strolling in or around the house .... :bounce:

Our own Paintrman (Kelley) just did a review of Cuir d'Arabie at perfumesmellinthings. Here is the link:

http://perfumesmellinthings.blogspot.com/

Thanks Vijay for the link. It is a blast to write for Marina. I hope this increases awareness of Montale scents. Whether you like them or not...the poor things are neglected.

Hey, you are very welcome , I love the way you wrote the reviews ., and you thought I would be offended. I did enjoy the cigarette after the fantasies I had , reading your HOT HOT reviews .

Not sure why but I have written several reviews for Basenotes but not had them show up in the directory. It can be very frustrating. Marina is also a wonderful person and I get ton's of responses to my reviews on her blog. I am not saying that all of the responses are positive but I feel well loved.

I forgot to mention that I am smitten with Oud Cuir d'Arabie. It smells exactly like a black leather coat or maybe the inside of a new car. What a remarkable scent! This has to be the truest real leather scent I have smelled.

Inside of a car ? I hope you are talking about a "new" car. Gotta try it then !

Yes, a new car with leather seats. Mmmm.....

Oh Kelley, you are loved! lol That was a great review that did exactly what it was supposed to do: it made this reader want to give those fragrances a testing. Good job, my friend!