Is Luca receiving backhanders ?

Good question, maybe he'll come on here and answer it. He does lurk and frequent a few blogs and other boards. I don't know if he does frequent this one though.
He's very good at telling what he thinks even if it's against the grain of the wood (crowd).
I like a man/woman that doesn't care what others think even if it's very unpopular.
I don't care for BP for Men E.Lauder either. But if he thinks it's all that and a bag of chips, then he's entitled to his opinion.
I don't know if he gets gratuities from the big companies like E.Lauder. It's possible. But I really couldn't deny nor confirm it. I don't know the man. I just read his eloquent reviews and thoughts online and appreciate them like yourself.

It's a tough call that only he could answer. And if he does, I'm sure as the saying goes "A true gentleman never tells".

Actually, Luca Turin did play a part in creating both Beyond Paradise fragrances (men's and women's) for Estee Lauder.

No fish, just personal taste, I believe. Frequently enough even Turin does not give an intersubjectively valid reason for liking - or not liking - particular fragrances. So he thinks Villoresi is a rank amateur - his problem. I don't think he has the pretension of being the Robert Parker of perfumes - though perhaps that'll change with his new guide. He may have a fantastic nose and be enormously experienced, he might have interesting suggestions to make (and I like his NZZ column), but in the end his is just another opinion, however well-informed and I think he's clever enough to know that, too.
Speaking of Parker - he gives such ridiculously high points to certain wines, like some $7 Spaniards, that he's been frequently accused of "helping out" wine merchant friends of his, but I think he's also simply guided by his fruit-bomb preferences (plus when it comes to certain regions, like German whites, he's simply incompetent).

Tell us more

I also don't agree with Turins' dismissal of Villoresi as an illiterate, amateur perfume hack. Turin is a biochemist and most of his fragrance reviews focus on specific perfume molecule smells with no regard (in most cases) to their overall suitability for human use.

Who knows, there might be a molecule or two hidden deep inside Beyond Paradises' formulation which send orgasmic shockwaves to his sensory neurons ... if 90% of a juice reeks of stagnant water pool algae but 10% of it is composed of a scent molecule which excites you, well, if you are that someone with Turin's expert talent of dissecting scents, the juice may well be smell worthy to you.

I see basenotes members describing great fragrances as being "hideous chemical messes" etc all the time. Never tried it myself but I don't remember Turin saying anything about Beyond Paradise Men being one of the best ever made. It was Beyond Paradise (for women) that he thought a lot of. I don't recall him saying that it was "one of the greatest perfumes ever created". He just thought it was an excellent floral composition. I remember Beyond Paradise (for women) was listed on his Crack O'Doom list, but they're not all necessarily ones he'd call the greatest ever made. That list was was created for a number of reasons, scentemental, whatever. Many on that list I'm sure he'd consider some of the best ever made - Joy, Mitsouko, Shalimar, Chanel Cuir de Russie, maybe others. But Shiseido's Nombre Noir, which he stated quite clearly was one of the five best ever created, and Bal À Versailles, which he called the most beautiful perfume he'd ever smelled, are not on that list.

As far as him being paid to write positive reviews, I doubt it. And you know what they say....assumptions are the mother of all f_ck-ups.

Actually, he reviewed the Lauder for Men as well (from his old blog):

"...The Lauder, very differently, also follows Ernst Haeckel’s law according to which development recapitulates evolution. Part of the trick is to be discerning about which life forms you include on the way. This one morphs from Joop All about Adam to Grey Flannel via Cool Water with the seamless grace that is Calice Becker’s hallmark. Unlike the Guerlain, which has a familiar cool-to-warm arc, Beyond Paradise Men never leaves the primeval ocean to bask on the beach: it manages to remain grey-green, indistinct and misty from topnote to drydown. Both fragrances show the reverence for history that informs classicism. Both, I wager, will be classics." (The Guerlain mentioned is L'Instand Pour Homme)

Its a funny coincidence, because I recently began to sample Mr. Turin's top picks based on his blog, and his "would take to Mars" list (whatever it was). I, too, was horrified by Beyond Paradise for Men. All I could think was, "what am I missing?". Then after reading about his crush on perfumer Calice Becker (who also created Tommy Girl, another of his favourites that I'll never understand) I thought maybe they're friends? Who knows...but his opinion has taken less of an influence on what I test.

Having said that, I still find his articles very humourous and entertaining, and he's where he is today because he knows his stuff...just happens that what he finds appealing isn't always for me, including L'Instant, Angel, Dzing, Dior Homme, Cuir de Russie, etc. I do like some of his picks, like Bois de Violette, Habit Rouge.

Different from what has been exchanged here, L Turin hasn’t expressed sentiments and subjective opinions only. Instead he explains special (I believe measurable) properties of certain molecules and hints to what it needs to use these to best advantage. He seems convinced that CB has gained real mastership in that (as far as I understand, see below).

As a particular fan of Lorenzo Villoresi perfumes, I have tried to verify derogatory statements LT is reported to have made in his direction. Unfortunately I have not been able to find a single one of those. I would appreciate it very much if one or the other gentleman could supply the source of the heavier statements like illiterate perfume hack / rank amateur, or similar. This does not sound like him at all. If nothing else, LT normally knows how to express himself elegantly.

From all we can read, it must be assumed that he and Becker have been very good friends for quite some time. That does not suffice to explain his view of her merits. He has (had) many friends in the perfumers' world. This is where he earns his living, too. And besides: what's not good about Tommy Girl and Beyond Paradise? I find the latter starts a bit too sweet for my own taste. But it's only the first minutes, and I try to not let top notes rule my judgement. BP for men I shall yet have to look at.


L Turin on Tommy Girl:
From ‘Emperor …’ / Chapter War (pp 450 f): “…Americans have done some really great fragrances. Estée Lauder’s Youth Dew, Aliage, White Linen. Among the truly greats: Tommy Girl, which is quintessentially American and one of the greatest twenty perfumes of all time. It was done by Calice Becker. She is French. Actually she is hundred percent Russian.”
(Music in perfume): Elle Pour Lui / June 5 / 05
“...If you want the steely radiance of Corelli, then Tommy Girl (marked pianissimo) will follow you around playing a dozen concerti grossi. My own idea of heaven is the slow movement of a late Mozart piano concerto, and nothing translates better its velvet stillness than Jean Kerléo's aptly named Sublime (Patou)”.

L Turin on Beyond Paradise:

From The Perfect Flower / June 05, 2005:
"...A few years later, Calice Becker's Tommy Girl proved that a tea base could make a floral shine as brightly as the inside of an alien spaceship. She went on to compose the wonderfully seamless J'Adore, where this brightness is dimmed to the glow of a sunset on snow. At this point it would have been legitimate to suppose that the idea was exhausted. Wrong ! Beyond Paradise begins with the most breathtaking floral chord ever, a hundred close-miked voices singing in unison. That alone would suffice, but what happens next is even more remarkable. A great artist at the peak of her powers, Becker has taken the bone structure from Cristalle, the tempting flesh from Diorella, the lattering hue of J'Adore and the radiance of Tommy Girl, and fused them all into a seraphic being we foolishly thought would never come: the Perfect Floral.”

Comments: Carthusia Fiori di Capri is the perfect floral. The end. :-)
Posted by: Laura | June 08, 2005 at 07:02 PM

On Beyond Paradise, men
From ‘Two Guys’ June 5 (Also in Folio, I believe, but I do not know when) :

“...The Lauder, very differently, also follows Ernst Haeckel’s law according to which development recapitulates evolution. Part of the trick is to be discerning about which life forms you include on the way. This one morphs from Joop All about Adam to Grey Flannel via Cool Water with the seamless grace that is Calice Becker’s hallmark. Unlike the Guerlain, which has a familiar cool-to-warm arc, Beyond Paradise Men never leaves the primeval ocean to bask on the beach: it manages to remain grey-green, indistinct and misty from topnote to drydown. Both fragrances show the reverence for history that informs classicism. Both, I wager, will be classics.”
June 05, 2005 | Permalink

From Beyond Paradise Men (Lauder) June 18, 2005
June18
“...Wear it, and after a few hours you will find your daily life suffused by the same feeling of peace you get when you settle into an armchair after tidying your flat from end to end. All other masculines (and most feminines) will seem loud, coarse and bare by comparison. This one just hums. BP men’s magic is no accident. Its composer Calice Becker has miraculously found a way to suspend perfume time, and bottle a never-ending dawn such as Concorde pilots used to see when flying westwards, racing with the sun.”

Comments:
“Judging on your comments I presume you might be a fan of Quest, since you declared yourself a true fan of Calice Becker and her Beyond Paradise for men and your devotion to Thierry Muglier's Angel, but this is just my guessing. So the question is which is your favorite perfume house?_If you ask me, my favorite one is Quest (also) though my perfumery idol currently works for Firmenich._I know this is a tough question being you who you are, but I think we'll all enjoy how elegantly you sneak out of this one.
Regards…”Jim

Jim: that's easy, my favorite firm is Flexitral
Posted by: luca turin | November 12, 2005 at 09:00 AM

From ‘Perfume Time’ Folio 10 / 05
“...A young trainee was put in charge of measuring odor value (volatility vs intensity) for hundreds of pure molecules. The result of years of drudgery was a chart that you still see on office walls at Givaudan R&D (they bought Roure). It is supposed to be a secret, but photocopiers have put it in most perfumers’ hands. Digest it (few have), and you have mastered Perfume Time. You can then make fragrances without scenery changes and intermissions, where every successive instant merges with the next one like chord modulations in late Richard Strauss. Prime examples: CaliceBecker’s two Beyond Paradise fragrances. The name of the trainee who compiled the chart? You guessed it.”
October 12, 2005

Luca Turin promotes "better living through chemistry". Some of his faves like Angel, The Dreamer, Tommy Girl are all showing their age rather prematurely and their chemical dependency seems rather at odds with the 'return to nature trend' going on these days.
His suggestion that there should be a fragrance based on the scent of Tide laundry detergent really makes me cringe. He writes well enough, but his style is pure hype.

I'm not hatin' on Turin (he's one of my favorite perfume critics...) but in his online blog post of November 10, 2005 he was talking negatively about the Rance line of scents (specifically a French Italian line that had a scent named 'Le Vainqueur') and his post clearly and quickly jabs at Villoresi in the next to the last sentence. I copied the last paragraph below:

' At least Guerlain had the decency to wait until the 1820Âs before adding Napoleonic bees to its glassware. He was also one hell of a chemist, easily two centuries ahead of his time, in comparison to whom Lavoisier looks like a mere amateur: Le Vainqueur, supposedly Âderived from the original compositions is a thin little knockoff of Beyond Paradise Men. In
short, Franco-Italian Rancé usefully combines ludicrous overpackaging Ã* la Lorenzo Villoresi with cynical patter in the manner of Creed. May Vainqueur not sell. '

In the COMMENTS section of his blog (right underneath the actual blog entry) of course, many online blog readers commented. One comment, Luca responded to. I copied the comment and Luca's response below:

'Luca, Aramis review hilarious. What's your opininion of the Villoresi perfumes?
Posted by: Nick | November 10, 2005 at 10:55 AM

Low
Posted by: luca turin | November 10, 2005 at 10:56 AM

Thanks. The bottles have always warded me off..._Press on Villoresi has always
given me the impression that the house was founded on the premise: "No previous
experience in perfumery necessary."
Posted by: Nick | November 10, 2005 at 11:24 AM

Evan: couldn't agree more. See on this subject my old post
http://lucaturin.typepad.com/perfume...shing_ret.html
Posted by: luca turin | November 10, 2005 at 12:17 PM'

The link that Luca refers to in his comments is a 'dead' link - perhaps it is THIS post on his old blog that referred to the rumored comments that he made about the Villoresi line.

Sorry everyone - I didn't want to turn this thread into a Luca vs. Villoresi thread, but it's pretty easy to see narcus, that Luca doesn't like the LV line. Which I could care less about...since I still think Spezie is fabulous.

"low"..

Hilarious!

He slammed Villoresi, but I would like to know why, or atleast get access to some of his Villoresi reviews.

I like Sandalo, and Villoresi Vetiver is fab ...I have been wearing a decant of Vetiver, and its spicy rosewood-infused vetiver formula blows away the ozone-laden pompously named Malle's Vetiver Extraordinaire (which I am liking less and less).

I don't understand why people hold Luca and others in such high esteem. He writes editorials, ie, opinions, comments and as such, will likely rub a few the wrong way. To me, Luca is no different than most on Basenotes other than his style of writing.

TNMA

In welcome contrast to an estimated 80% of all reviews (amateurs and others), Turin never lets you down the path of idyllic fragrance pyramids, most of which are copied from industry press releases anyway. These are generally written to distract from the realities of the perfume industry which (I suspect) relies more on P&G, Symrise, Givaudan, etc. than on jasmine in Grasse, Persian roses, and sandalwood from India.

I think anyone with experience in perfume can tell if a fragrance is well composed, even if its not to their liking. Mr. Turin seems to bluntly insult many not on their composition, but on their marketing, likeness to other scents, and his own personal views leading up to the actual test. His articles and reviews and purely for entertainment value...as you cannot ever judge what you like the smell of by what someone else writes.

A very interesting discussion! I owe Turin for being largely responsible for having gotten me more interested in perfume in the first place. I wish I had his ability to pick out notes. Also, Turin, I think, is often writing in his 2nd, 3rd, or 4th languages, and very well, and I always give props for that.

But having read all this, you can see that no matter how erudite the commentator is, there are scents that they'll rave about that just make you want to engage in reverse peristalsis, aka hurl.

I look forward to having enough money to find out just how awful Lorenzo Villoresi is! Being 62% Italian (strictly based on my diet), chances are I'll like him.

Cheers, Dave

I've only smelled Villoresi's take on Vetiver...it smelled like Vetiver essential oil...which is either good or bad, depending on if you like Vetiver in its truest form. Maybe Villoresi doesn't send me extravagent gifts like Chanel and Guerlain do .

Mike, I have not forgotten your reprint and pictures of one of the LT interviews. That is still something to go back to! Even more than Malle recently, Turin wins a lot when you see him in action, grin, speak with his eyes, and convince you by his unbroken, youthful enthusiasm. His personality can never come through that way in print. Please tell me: ‘one of (your) favorite perfume critics’ - whom have I missed reading all the time? Burr / NYT is a little difficult to get acces to. I also do not share his (limited) taste. I like when he is honest, though. Who else is out there?

Thank you for your serious effort, and work, to find an answer to the questions I have raised. I thought I had been well aware of the Villoresi comments in blogtextweb. But I had overlooked the fastest guillotine ever:”low”, and Sophie answering: “VoilÃ* la Luca's touch que j'admire !”(Me too). It may well be that he eliminated a few things from his blog (typepad.com) before it was reissued as blogtextweb for everybody to download (which was quite generous). Blogs are spontaneous and improvised, in this case like a manuscript, whereas blogtextweb would correspond to the official version for a wider audience. That would shed a different light on the matter. Changes and withdrawals must then be respected.

It’s been a while now, that I have missed comments from LT on several perfumes and producers. I was hoping these would come in due time. Villoresi, however, has then not simply been overlooked, and I consider the LT comment on their packaging - when everybody would expect one on juices - as serious criticism. Ah well, it has been announced that the new guide will include a selection of ‘blatant errors/ greatest failures!’, or something like that - maybe he saves Villoresi for that . So far I can only recognize a general lack of appreciation for Italian perfumery (he named a few exceptions. I do not want to bore anybody with more quotes though. It’s in The Emperor, chapter War, p.450 ( Arrow pocket book issue). Maybe he has developed a difficult relationship to the country of his ancestors. That happens to emigrants sometimes.

I had actually hoped you would reveal your source of information. Just for the record: Luca Turin is not a biochemist. He holds a Ph. D. in biophysics. He has also been lecturer in biophysics (University College London) for about seven years (until 2001, I believe). He now designs new fragrance molecules for the industry. Their purpose: replacing known allergens in European perfumes. He must have some regard to their suitability for our bodies, zz! It's his main source of income, I suppose .

Besides Turin, yes Chandler Burr (he doesn't just write for the NYT). He recently just did an article in O magazine (Oprah's) that was a little 'perfume 101'. Some of the things in the article I disagree with strongly - but doesn't that happen with many critiques we read...Maybe I'll reprint the article one day here on BN.

There's also a perfume column every issue of Fantastic Man magazine (last issues was a review of the two Hermes' Un Jardin's...hilarious journalism and quite witty)...but I can't remember the columnists name.

Besides that - my favorite perfume critics are right here on Basenotes...some of the Basenotes posts are more insightful and well written than Turin himself.

You could send Turin a truckload of anything you want, but in the end, the fragrance buying public is not influenced by his Diana Vreeland-esque proclamations. Success is all in the marketing and sometimes, even in the juice.

How about the equal rights principle, David? It was only last month that you launched a discussion titled: Patou Pour Homme - Revolting ! You associated it with with shoe polish, and added later: " I think of perfume as a form of art. Art provokes emotion and discussion - and criticism...." - Turin now shouldn't be allowed to do the same? Not even in with a positive prefix?

Besides, Turin is not in a 'priviledged position'. He worked hard for getting where he is now. And his path was not just leading upwards. Any genuine asshole with his talents could easily be CEO, or near there with LVMH. Perfume is just his playground. Like many pros he studied perfumery in Grasse, but it was simply because he loves perfume passionately. It's the sunny side of the street for him. He worked on perfumes (for Fragonard). But he earns his money the hard way, just as most people do. C.Burr describes a third Turin: the scientist with aims to endeavor the secrets of smell.

On perfumery: what some don't know about, and others forget too quickly - he went to war against Dior and organized a public uprise against LVMH ruining the Guerlain heritage! " I wasn't in that (although it only took writing a couple of letters and informing a few other people. I am not proud of having been such a lame ass. Where were you in 2005?) The fall of the house of Guerlain" was one of his flaming columns then. And it was about facts not opinions.

David, I know you appreciate solid old quality in fragrance Ã* la Caron as much as I, many of us, do! Turin still doesn't get tired to unmask the growing disease of making more money with lesser or cheaper concentrations of the fragrant part in perfumes. He made Guerlain finally revert some changes in Mitsouko, and it was only in December last year when he published an Open Letter to Coty:"....Mr Harf, it is now up to you to restore Coty’s greatness. You must reissue Coty classics in the original formulations. Do not let anyone tell you it can’t be done, because it’s done already...." http://www.nzzfolio.ch/www/d80bd71b-...bbe45eda2.aspxI recommend you read the whole letter. Does that look like optimized behaviour for backhanders ? Bull ? The answers are too easy.

I get a kick out of these threads. People with almost no understanding of what they're talking about giving the lowdown on a guy who has more knowledge on several fronts than most people in this world will ever have regarding anything. It's lame as hell and not what you'd expect from people who've spent much time on this site. The nitwit element seems to think he's a self-appointed arbiter of fragrances, but his background, and back story, clearly indicate otherwise. His sense of smell is on par with the best but he became bored with the hip bone connected to the thigh bone note dissection review style long ago. As he says, "What's the fucking tune?". It's something very few can discern, though there are a few people on Basenotes and other sites who do it well - impressionistic rather than analytic. The biggest fans of his original perfume guides were the perfumers themselves. You can bet that in many cases those reviews had a profound impact on the perfumers and the houses that employed them. Fortunately, even with massive political pressure, his controversial theories about scent are getting more support all the time.

I'm definitely lookin forward to the twelve hundred or so reviews from he and Tania Sanchez in the book, Perfumes: The Guide, coming out next year. I don't expect to agree with everything he says though it's amazing how many reviews I did agree with as I recently looked through the long list in the 94 Le Guide.

Thank you pluran - Tania Sanchez was the missing link getting me back here:



I seldom buy things blind - this book I' ll sign up for if must be! And I shall equip myself with more Villoresis for the discussions later

Luca's blog had quite a few people with interesting comments. If some of them write regularly, I would like to find them again. Anybody knows more about EVAN, NICK, JULIEN or ROBIN? Robin seems to run Nowsmellthis plus a shop that's linked to them. And the others?

Amen!

It is just me or is pluran the sanest individual on the board?

Personally, I think the title and import of this thread is slanderous not to mention so unfair, and I am surprised no one has pointed out that it directly contravenes the following forum rule:


So David, you don't agree with Turin's assessment of Beyond Paradise for Men? Let's not dwell on the fact that you're misinformed about his actual claims and the context of his actual claims. You should certainly be as careful and as thoughtful as narcus is on such things, but I just find it mind boggling that your misinformed, entirely subjective response is the basis for speculation that Luca Turin is some how on the payroll of the companies of fragrances he admires. Mind boggling. Truly mind boggling.

scentemental

Turin's preferences are similar to what makes horse races i.e. differences of opinion. On more than one occasion the longshot, eschewed by the 'professionals', is the winner.