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Noses in perfume industry

post #1 of 27
1/17/08 at 11:21am
Thread Starter 
Good evening dear members,

I would like to know if anyone of you could tell me a word or two about noses in perfume industry. I tried searching on the web, but as soon as I did a few searches I realized that discussion boards are pretty much useful place to learn from than the articles on the internet.

I would like to know how the one becomes a nose in perfume industry. Does the one have to be good in chemistry or it is all about keeping scents in your memory?

While experiencing fragrances, especially the concentrated ones, I managed to recognize different levels of them that many people surrounding me couldn't.

I would like to get more into this kind of industry, so if anyone of you could tell me I would be appreciative.
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post #2 of 27
1/17/08 at 11:35am
This is an interesting blog of someone learning the art of perfumery. Maybe it will provide some answers. Be sure to read it from the very beginning.

http://1000flowers.wordpress.com/
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post #3 of 27
1/17/08 at 12:48pm
http://www.osmoz.com/mag/fiche_repor...PORT&LANGUE=en
http://www.fragrance.org/feature_nose.html
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_do_you...grance_company

From what I've read it's not easy getting into the business (see above). And of course chances are you won't end up being JC Ellena, but some anonymous whitecoat who has to dream up another fresh-fruity-musk in two weeks on a shoestring budget. There is a DIY board here and I think one way of approaching this is to start teaching yourself, by systematically analyzing perfumes, getting raw materials and learning about those in all their glorious variety, following classic perfume recipes and experimenting with your own to gain experience. It's a science and an art and I believe it requires natural talent as well as great diligence. Was it ellena or guerlain who said it took them 30 years to really get the hang of it? Well, perhaps, the path is the goal.
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post #4 of 27
1/18/08 at 2:28am
Thread Starter 
Thanks.

You should change Montenegrin flag, this one in my profile was in use before.
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post #5 of 27
1/18/08 at 4:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by joxer96 View Post

This is an interesting blog of someone learning the art of perfumery. Maybe it will provide some answers. Be sure to read it from the very beginning.

http://1000flowers.wordpress.com/

Great blog, joxer, thanks!
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post #6 of 27
3/26/08 at 8:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_good_life View Post

http://www.osmoz.com/mag/fiche_repor...PORT&LANGUE=en
http://www.fragrance.org/feature_nose.html
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_do_you...grance_company

From what I've read it's not easy getting into the business (see above). And of course chances are you won't end up being JC Ellena, but some anonymous whitecoat who has to dream up another fresh-fruity-musk in two weeks on a shoestring budget. There is a DIY board here and I think one way of approaching this is to start teaching yourself, by systematically analyzing perfumes, getting raw materials and learning about those in all their glorious variety, following classic perfume recipes and experimenting with your own to gain experience. It's a science and an art and I believe it requires natural talent as well as great diligence. Was it ellena or guerlain who said it took them 30 years to really get the hang of it? Well, perhaps, the path is the goal.

Roudnitska said here:

Do scents have visual or audible analogues for you?

Absolutely! As photographer, computer graphic designer and fragrance composer, I have been working on this subject for 30 years: first, theoretically trying to find a poetical correspondence between visual and olfactive shapes and then creating multisensorial shows using these results in order to increase the emotional impact of my images. It's incredible how the right fragrance combined with the right sound and images can create a real synergy and draw the spectator into a deep sensorial immersion.

This tool has been used also for the graphic illustration of the Perfume families in the Michael Edward's "Fragrance of the World" book in 2000 or more recently for an exhibition in which the public was invited to discover by itself these correspondences, matching 10 scents (spicy, citrus, woody, fresh, floral, green, ...) with 10 pictures [such as the picture here]. We can use these visual analogues in an educational way in order to help people communicate about scents. There a big gap to fill because we don't learn the olfactive language at school.

& ellena said in this interview :"He is also at the height of his powers, arguing that it takes 20 years to become a perfumer, another 20 to master the art. "
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post #7 of 27
3/26/08 at 9:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanatik View Post

yes ellena said here:

Do scents have visual or audible analogues for you?

Absolutely! As photographer, computer graphic designer and fragrance composer, I have been working on this subject for 30 years. [...] There a big gap to fill because we don't learn the olfactive language at school.

That's Michel Roudnitska, not Jean-Claude Ellena
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post #8 of 27
3/26/08 at 9:18am
I read of a test that French 'noses' must be able to pass to get the title 'nose'. It was about Olivier Creed and the test was that he, blindfolded had to name all the notes in a fragrance that is sprayed near him before the spray hit's the floor.

Olivier Creed is a 'nose'.
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post #9 of 27
3/26/08 at 10:55am
thx marcello, did edit the posting :--)
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post #10 of 27
3/27/08 at 12:58pm
Quote:
I read of a test that French 'noses' must be able to pass to get the title 'nose'. It was about Olivier Creed and the test was that he, blindfolded had to name all the notes in a fragrance that is sprayed near him before the spray hit's the floor.

Olivier Creed is a 'nose'.

You do understand that this is not true? If you read this in an article about Creed then it is just some invention of the Creed publicity people.
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post #11 of 27
3/27/08 at 1:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcampen View Post

You do understand that this is not true? If you read this in an article about Creed then it is just some invention of the Creed publicity people.


Agreed, that's like expecting every musician to be able to name every note in a D13(b5) chord just by hearing it. A select few might be able to (those with perfect pitch or who've trained with relative pitch for years..although technically the relative pitch people could only tell you the construction of the chord and not the root or additional notes), but not being able to doesn't mean one can't be a musician.
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post #12 of 27
3/27/08 at 2:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcampen View Post

You do understand that this is not true? If you read this in an article about Creed then it is just some invention of the Creed publicity people.

of course I know it's not true, You think I'm as smart as you?
--------------------------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by SculptureOfSoul View Post

Agreed, that's like expecting every musician to be able to name every note in a D13(b5) chord just by hearing it. A select few might be able to (those with perfect pitch or who've trained with relative pitch for years..although technically the relative pitch people could only tell you the construction of the chord and not the root or additional notes), but not being able to doesn't mean one can't be a musician.

how did we get from French 'noses' experts in fragrance to every musician being able to identify each note in a D13(b5) chord? Do you have perfect pitch? I understand you're born with it. you don't develop it. Do you not believe that Olivier Creed may be a fragrance prodigy?

also I never mentioned at what height the stuff was sprayed from so stop wasting my time.

Please let the_good_life or marcello comment on the worthiness of my post of what it takes to become a nose in France. I greatly admire their opinions and would be happy with their determination.
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post #13 of 27
3/27/08 at 4:27pm
Wow, what is up with this place? I'm simply saying that the probability of any person to accurately identify every note within a 15-30 second timespan is extremely improbable.

Now, do I know that Oliver Creed cannot do this? No, and I wouldn't have complained if you had only said that you had heard he had said ability, but to claim that it is a mandatory skill to become a nose in France sounds ludicrous to me, analogous to the idea that all expert/professional level musicians must have perfect pitch.

For the record, no, I don't have perfect pitch, but my relative pitch ( a system based around relativity to the key center, not to the preceding note, developed by Bruce Arnold) is quite developed.

I wasn't attacking you personally Fredrick. Sorry if it came off that way but I meant no hostility and hope we can avoid it from here on out.
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post #14 of 27
3/27/08 at 4:38pm
It's probably a lot easier than it sounds. The testee would immediately know the class of fragrance he was smelling. Once classified, chypre for instance there are basic notes that appear in most chypres. With those out of the way you can rattle off any highlights added to the basic fragrance style. Osmoz.com breaks down perfume classes and rather nicely gives examples of each style.
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post #15 of 27
3/28/08 at 5:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredricktoo View Post

Please let the_good_life or marcello comment on the worthiness of my post of what it takes to become a nose in France. I greatly admire their opinions and would be happy with their determination.

There are schools and associations for perfumers, but there's no such thing as an institutionalized, legally recognized title for them. Examns are not required to work as a perfumer, although if you lack any formal training, your chances of working for a large company are nil.

For what it's worth, 'nose' is just a colloquial term that resonates well with the general public. Professionals tend to avoid it, and some even find it derogatory, stressing that olfactory creations take place in the mind, not the nose. Edmond Roudnitska hated the word, because he wanted the profession to be taken seriously. Nowadays, people like Jean-Claude Ellena call themselves 'parfumeur-créateur' to underline the artistic element of their profession. I can see how Olivier Creed would present himself as a 'nose' in the media, giving off a (misleading) suggestion of superior olfactory abilities that sets him apart from the rest. As for his blindfold story, that could well have been taken out of its context. There are no such formal practices in France, nor anywhere else.
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post #16 of 27
3/28/08 at 5:32am
thank you Marcello

I stand corrected.

lol
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post #17 of 27
3/28/08 at 6:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcampen View Post

You do understand that this is not true? If you read this in an article about Creed then it is just some invention of the Creed publicity people.

I have read a similar story on the webpage of The Perfume House in Portland:
http://www.theperfumehouse.com/heritage.htm
Maybe they are exaggerating a bit, but there seems to be some truth in it.
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post #18 of 27
3/28/08 at 7:05am
Oh my. According to the website:

Quote:
After 40 years of study and training, Chris [Tsefalas] was tested, then anointed as one of the worlds 200 Noses. Now, he is recognized as one of 26 by the Council of Six. To qualify as a Nose, the prospective candidate must be able to recant all of the elements that comprises the essential elements within a fragrance before the sprayed droplets reach the floor.

What's this, a page from Harry Potter?
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post #19 of 27
3/28/08 at 7:46am
I found this very interesting and insightful while reading the book “The Art and Science of Scent” published by the National Geographic Society. Sophia Grojsman of IFF, interviewed by Cathy Newman.

[quote]

While evaluating some test blotters for a new fragrance brought in by a technician, she leans close to Cathy and whispers conspiratorially, “ I’m going to close the door and do something illegal, I am going to light a cigarette.” “But doesn’t the smoke effect..?” Cathy asks. “I bypass it, “Sophia says brushing off the question as if it were a stray ash. “ I go right to the heart of a fragrance. Some people smell top notes first. I go deeper. I search for the soul. “I don’t like the idea that I’m called a nose, “ she says dismissively. “Everyone is a nose. It’s creativity and passion that makes a perfumer. I can dream perfumes. I can smell them in my head. I can feel them.”

The assistant scurries in with two blotters. Grojsman waves one, then the other, briefly beneath her nose. There is a pause, then a nod of approval. “I like the new one better.” The assistant looks relieved.

“My work comes home with me,” “I live with these fragrances days, months. I put them on in the middle of the night. My husband will say: Can I smell?

But the public is what I count on. Taxi drivers are the best. Once I was working on something very sexy, very spiritual; I got into a cab wearing it, and there is an Indian guy. He’s saying ‘I can’t drive. I can’t drive.’ He loved it. He was ready to give me a longer drive.

Sophia worked on Eternity, Tresor, and Paris.

[Unquote]
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post #20 of 27
3/28/08 at 8:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcello View Post

Oh my. According to the website:



What's this, a page from Harry Potter?

We've had some reputable bloggers, members of the Basenotes community go out to the Perfume House and report back in their blogs. Perfume Posse plus others.

the plot thickens

Btw Marcello if you've ever been to Portland Or. you wouldn't need to ask.
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post #21 of 27
3/28/08 at 9:39am
Quote:
I have read a similar story on the webpage of The Perfume House in Portland:
http://www.theperfumehouse.com/heritage.htm
Maybe they are exaggerating a bit, but there seems to be some truth in it.

Exaggerating a bit? Yes, quite a bit. This is nothing but fantasy.

Edit:
LOL! 'one of the world’s 200 “Noses”. ... he is recognized as one of 26 by the Council of Six.'

Definitely sounds like something from a Harry Potter fantasy.
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post #22 of 27
3/28/08 at 11:02am
I might be a sucker, but Marina of Perfume Smelling Things is not. So we'll let her tell it again.

here

and

here
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post #23 of 27
3/28/08 at 11:39am
Thx for the links fredricktoo...very, very interesting stuff.
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post #24 of 27
3/28/08 at 11:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredricktoo View Post

I might be a sucker, but Marina of Perfume Smelling Things is not. So we'll let her tell it again.

here

and

here

I love those stories surrounding the perfume house, wish that I can pay a visit someday.
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post #25 of 27
3/28/08 at 1:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredricktoo View Post

We've had some reputable bloggers, members of the Basenotes community go out to the Perfume House and report back in their blogs. Perfume Posse plus others.

the plot thickens

Btw Marcello if you've ever been to Portland Or. you wouldn't need to ask.

I've lived in some of the most beautiful places in the country but Portland and the Oregon Coast are hard to beat for overall living.

The Perfume House is a great place. I don't know much about Chris or how good his nose is, but he's a wealth of information. It would be nice if they had a couple of more nice looking young women working there but they try to keep it close to the family due to the amount of theft that has occurred.
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post #26 of 27
3/28/08 at 3:08pm
I'd love to visit the Oregon Coast... I had a colleague who raved about it all the time. And I wouldn't mind visiting The Perfume House either.

To my knowledge, the closest thing to a "Council of Six" would be Febea (Fédération des Entreprises de la Beauté), which represents six different syndicats in the beauty industry. One of them is the Syndicat Français de la Parfumerie, and the Comité Français du Parfum (the "French Perfume Council" mentioned on Marina's blog) acts as its promotional body. But seriously, that's one hell of a stretch.
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post #27 of 27
3/28/08 at 7:57pm
Honestly, I think he's just joking around.
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