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Tiny proportions

post #1 of 22
2/3/08 at 7:56am
Thread Starter 
I was reading some info over at www.perfumersworld.com pertaining to oils and their recommended usage range in the final blend of a perfume. Some oils lower bounds were as low as 0.02% of the final blend.. and many of them were recommended in the range of 0.1% (I've read that civet at 0.1% actually lends a lily of the valley type note to a blend.)

Do you guys mix things at such tiny proportions? Do you feel it is necessary? I'm looking into some supplies that will let me mix at that level without making huge 30ml test blends or anything like that.
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post #2 of 22
2/3/08 at 10:57am
the lowest i go is lets say 1% actual dilution in a dropper, and lets say theres 20-30 drops in a blend that I make so under 0.05%. This is neccesary for some things like calone and patchouli I blieve I dont have more than 0.6% total of any blend. Civet you have to be very careful with as well!
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post #3 of 22
2/3/08 at 1:46pm
Thread Starter 
Hmm, well, that does work yes. And if everything else is at 10% dilution, that 1 drop of 1% dilution actually = .005% of the blend.

What I was hoping to avoid was diluting different ingredients at different amounts as this makes it all but impossible to have extremely fine control over the percentages of ALL the ingredients in a mix. Using different dilution rates can mean you are adding too much alcohol to a mix to add that .05% of civet, throwing off the rest of the numbers.

I'm going to try and keep everything at a 10 or 20% dilution, and instead use micropipettes to blend tiny amounts. This way I can have extremely fine control over every ingredient without having to have different mixes of that same ingredient diluted to 10%, 5%, 1%, etc, while still being able to make an entire 10 or 20% blend take up only a single ml or less (i.e. stretch the ingredients as far as I can.)
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post #4 of 22
2/5/08 at 2:11pm
Quote:
Using different dilution rates can mean you are adding too much alcohol to a mix to add that .05% of civet, throwing off the rest of the numbers.

How does the amount of alcohol throw off the rest of the numbers? When you put the fragrance on your skin or a test strip the alcohol quickly evaporates so whether you have 18% fragrance material in alcohol or 20% fragrance material in alcohol doesn't matter.
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post #5 of 22
2/5/08 at 11:36pm
Thread Starter 
Well, what I mean is that yes, obviously the proportion of each ingredient to each other will remain the same regardless of how much alcohol is added, but the proportion of each ingredient compared to the volume of the total mix is going to be thrown off. So if I had and wanted 3% of the volume of the final diluted blend to be bergamot, that could be thrown off considerably if it was blended at a dilution of 20%, and yet many other ingredients were blended at a dilution of say, 5% or 1%.

I don't know how much that will change the overall result of the perfume. As you said, the alcohol does evaporate quickly, but my intuition tells me that different dilution rates of an ingredient compared to the volume of the entire mix, will give different results. I don't know if that is true, and I can't test until I get my supplies, if the small offset introduced by a different dilution rate will have any noticeable effect on the final product.

I guess it boils down to this question: Is the only important factor the ratio of ingredients to one another, or does the ratio of an ingredient to the entire volume of the mix also have an impact?
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post #6 of 22
2/6/08 at 8:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SculptureOfSoul View Post


I guess it boils down to this question: Is the only important factor the ratio of ingredients to one another, or does the ratio of an ingredient to the entire volume of the mix also have an impact?

I would think the only thing that matters is the ratio of ingredients to one another. It can get confusing when mixing ingredients at different percentages of dilution so, with the exception of a couple of very strong ingredients, everything I work with is diluted at 10%.
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post #7 of 22
2/6/08 at 10:52am
Thread Starter 
Well, if that is true, that's great to know. I can forego ordering the ultra-tiny micropipettes I had planned to get.
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post #8 of 22
2/6/08 at 11:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SculptureOfSoul View Post

Well, what I mean is that yes, obviously the proportion of each ingredient to each other will remain the same regardless of how much alcohol is added, but the proportion of each ingredient compared to the volume of the total mix is going to be thrown off. So if I had and wanted 3% of the volume of the final diluted blend to be bergamot, that could be thrown off considerably if it was blended at a dilution of 20%, and yet many other ingredients were blended at a dilution of say, 5% or 1%.

You're overthinking this.

Odds are, many of your ingredients will be used at or near full strength in your blend, and they're going to match or overwhelm (by weight/volume) the amount of any highly diluted materials you add. When you dilute your final blend to 15% (or whatever strength you're using) and end up with maybe an ounce or half an ounce of perfume, the contribution of a dozen extra drops of diluent during blending is going to be pretty insignificant. It's certainly not going to change the smell of your perfume.

If you were selling your perfume in quantity, you might want the extra precision, for accounting purposes or so that you can be absolutely sure that every batch is exactly x% fragrance.. but at that point you're blending in bulk anyway, and probably using undiluted ingredients.

I just remembered what you said about "huge 30ml test blends". If that's the volume after dilution, that's not particularly huge (IMO) unless your blends are extremely simple. I wonder if it's really cost-effective to spend the money for a good micropipette and high-capacity microgram scale instead of just using more material, especially considering that tiny amounts of material have a significant markup, when they are available at all, and that some materials have a limited shelf life.
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post #9 of 22
2/6/08 at 9:47pm
Thread Starter 
Regardless of markup percentages, if I can make a 1/10th of an ounce last as long as your 1/4 ounce, it'll be cheaper.

And 30ml for one blend? That's just an absurd amount in my eyes. No need to make them more than a couple ml, after dilution.
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post #10 of 22
2/6/08 at 11:14pm
You have fun with that.
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post #11 of 22
2/6/08 at 11:38pm
Thread Starter 
Hmm, I don't see why you are so against my proposal. I'm not trying to say that this way is better than that way, it's simply cheaper. From my point of view, it's more economically feasible to spend a bit more on equipment up front and much less on supplies down the road than vice versa.

Sorry if I offended you, that wasn't my intention. So nobody else is working in such small proportions? Hmm, maybe that's a result of another variation then: do you work on one blend and keep adding more until it works? While I do intend to do that, I also plan to have say, 20 variations of an idea all blended and maturing at once. Sure, most of them may be discarded (or further added to), which is precisely why I want to keep the proportions so small.
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post #12 of 22
2/7/08 at 9:21am
Hey Sculpture,

Just curious, have you found 1% dilutions strong enough to evaluate accurately? I'm wondering if there would be so little of the more volatile ingredients, that they'd disappear off your test trip in a matter of seconds. This could make your more concentrated blends smell differently than your initial experiments. Being able to work at 1% does sound nice though, some of those natural absolutes are expensive!
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post #13 of 22
2/7/08 at 9:38am
Quote:
Hey Sculpture,

Just curious, have you found 1% dilutions strong enough to evaluate accurately?

This seems to be the opposite of what SoS said. Could you quote where he said this?


Quote:
I'm wondering if there would be so little of the more volatile ingredients, that they'd disappear off your test trip in a matter of seconds. This could make your more concentrated blends smell differently than your initial experiments. Being able to work at 1% does sound nice though, some of those natural absolutes are expensive!

Are you talking about a component of the fragrance being used at a 1% dilution or the final fragrance composition being evaluated at 1%?

But, yes, if you evaluate a fragrance diluted at 1% dilution versus 10% dilution there will be some difference.

Quote:
So nobody else is working in such small proportions? Hmm, maybe that's a result of another variation then: do you work on one blend and keep adding more until it works? While I do intend to do that, I also plan to have say, 20 variations of an idea all blended and maturing at once. Sure, most of them may be discarded (or further added to), which is precisely why I want to keep the proportions so small.

I like to have about 4 grams after diluting to about 15% fragrance material in alcohol. I use a scale though and measure the diluted fragrance components by weight.

Your micropipette idea is interesting. But to transfer the liquid from the micropipette don't you have to touch the tip against the container wall, what type of vial will you use.
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post #14 of 22
2/7/08 at 10:30am
Thread Starter 
I wouldn't know Joxer. First, I don't have my supplies, and secondly I won't be mixing at 1% dilution. I want to mix at 10-20% dilution, but even so, only mix 2ml at a time. I plan to pre-dilute everything to 10%, and then mix with those.

DCampen, as it stands, I plan on using some 1ml syringe type droppers that are graduated at 1/100th's of a ml. Of course, assuming everything is at 10% dilution and i'm mixing 2ml at a time, that only gives me the ability to mix down to 0.5%. Of course, if I dilute only the ingredients that need to be in such tiny proportions to 1%, those tools alone give me the ability to get down to 0.05%.

The other tool I was thinking of getting is actually a pipette of sorts but uses a plunger to draw the fluid up and push it out, so no touching to the sides is necessary. I plan on mixing in 5ml vials.
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post #15 of 22
2/8/08 at 12:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SculptureOfSoul View Post

Hmm, I don't see why you are so against my proposal. I'm not trying to say that this way is better than that way, it's simply cheaper. From my point of view, it's more economically feasible to spend a bit more on equipment up front and much less on supplies down the road than vice versa.

For what it's worth, I typically buy my ingredients in the smallest quantities available, and there have been very few I've needed to get more of over the last couple of years. I really haven't spent very much on additional material.

If you're really intent on running massive blending experiments in parallel, then perhaps yours is the best solution, but I can't help imagining the added hassle that might come with working in microquantities.
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post #16 of 22
2/8/08 at 8:48am
Quote:
DCampen, as it stands, I plan on using some 1ml syringe type droppers that are graduated at 1/100th's of a ml. Of course, assuming everything is at 10% dilution and i'm mixing 2ml at a time, that only gives me the ability to mix down to 0.5%.

I would like to see these syringes, is there a link to somwhere? To what precision do you anticipate being able to measure 0.01 ml: +-20%, +-10% etc.?. 0.01 ml is a very small drop, what type of needle goes on the end of the syringe?
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post #17 of 22
2/8/08 at 9:47am
Thread Starter 
Well, I just got my syringes in today. No needle on the end - and I'm not sure about their accuracy.

http://www.abundanthealth4u.com/1_ml_Syringe_p/9251.htm

Early experiments lead me to believe it's fairly accurate but requires a very careful eye. Not knowing just what kind of margin for error there is to be expected makes me uncomfortable though. I'm going to look at getting some needle tips for them. Does anyone know where I should start looking?

I'm also thinking of getting some fixed volume tiny glass capillary style "pipettes" for microliter sizes. The margin for error on those is +/- 1% I believe.

Another thing I'm going to experiment with is creating the tiniest hole possible through the blue cap that comes with each syringe, and see if that increases the rate at which drops form and fall.

At any rate, it should be more accurate than blending in drops, as viscosity won't make a difference here. I think I might just go ahead and order some more precise dispensers though. Hopefully these can be returned .
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post #18 of 22
2/8/08 at 11:18am
My guess is that trying to measure 0.01 ml with these syringes will be very imprecise. I think that I will stay with using an electronic scale to measure by weight.
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post #19 of 22
2/8/08 at 11:35am
Thread Starter 
Yup, your guess is right. I'm returning them. Going to be ordering some high accuracy micropipettes soon. Just got to find a good source for a decent price.
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post #20 of 22
2/8/08 at 11:46am
For civet, you may want to try 1 drop is a larger volume of Perfumers alcohol (say 100mL) - you may not detect the civet, but it is supposed to bring out the subtleties of other things you add.
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post #21 of 22
3/2/12 at 9:02am
I just purchased 3 Accumax Pro-series variable volume micropipettes in a starter kit of the sizes 1.2ul-2ul, 2ul-20ul and 20ul-200ul for around $280 incl. shipping at quasarinstruments.com
I did research quality and prices prior to and hope I made the right choice. I am going to delay getting a scale for now.
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post #22 of 22
3/19/12 at 11:43pm
The Accumax pipette set I bought a while ago work great at measuring volumes as tiny as 0.1ul which I am finding is an adequate amt. per EO for blending on perfume blotters for test blends. I really have to work at smelling my blends rather than have them 'rush up' to flood my nose. I don't know how accurate this particular pipette is. I guess that's when a precision scale can be used to cross-checks. Just for fun I have been doing things like lining up drops of water in 0.1, 0.2, 0.3, 0.4ul etc quantities to see how the drops get progressively bigger. The side-by-side differences in size of drops are not discenable to the naked eye in these small increments but lined up, you can see the progression from 0.1 to say 1ul. Still waiting on finding a good alcohol-based diluent. I would have gone with what Mistral sells if they weren't on the other side of the Atlantic. Anything like this being sold in the US?
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