Luca Turin and Creed  

Cut him some slack... he's got the right to be judgemental without any plausible reason. He also has the right to like a crapy fragrance without any good reason.

Realize its one guy's opinion, and the book's strength is its no-holds-barred opinionated treatment of fragrances.

I suppose the reasons he was critical of Creed's products in general are what is important (my copy is on the way). But I would be OK with "Luca Turin does not like Creed's stuff" - even if I thought Creed was wonderful, simply because frank reviews are so rare!

Incidentally he does not like Caleche, and Estee - and my mother adores both - though she really found the whole guidebook a real good one anyway.

Let's say that Turin hating Creed leads to less people buying Creed, therefore you are more unique when you use Creed. This can only be good for you.

People in perceived high places like to bring others down to their level. It doesn't mean diddly squat. You can't argue with success.

As I pointed out just recently on a Turin thread my sense is he adheres to a "classic" French view of perfume construction which leads to a somewhat prejudiced view both of eccentric "dilettantes" such as Villoresi and what he would consider the simplistic creations of Creed. His loss in both cases, I believe.

What is the title of the book?

Which has given us such fine contributions as Microsoft Windows, Paris Hilton, James Blunt, the Hummer, Cliff's Notes, and Adam Sandler.

You might actually read what the book has to say about the Creed frags before engaging in idle speculation or denunciation. Turin considers GIT a "truly great fragrance." for example - credit where credit is due - and if he's less enthusiastic about much of the rest of the line, he's fairly articulate on why that's the case.

I knew this topic would be started eventually...although he's always been fairly vocal about not loving Creed.

Take it for what its worth...a review is a subjective thing, like it or lump it.

What's the jist of his criticism of Creed?

I like much of what I've read from Turin because of the entertainment value, but I think he likes to be shockingly arbitrary at times. I happen to really enjoy Creed's style of perfumery-- it doesn't bother me that Turin's not on board-- he's professed his love for some real pieces of crap now and again, so it doesn't mean much to me. I still like to read perfume reviews period. I went to the bookstore yesterday and alas, they didn't have the book in stock. I do plan on getting it soon as I'm sure I won't be able to put it down, even as he shoots arrows through my favorite workhorses, and blows kisses to some real slags.

And did he really give Mechant Loup one star? That's criminal.

The entry for Millésime Impérial offers a brief précis of his case: from a purely technical perspective, Creed's apparently overblown claims about its use of naturals, which he characterizes as only slightly above average. From a marketing perspective, its fugly packaging and its perhaps dubious claims about the gang of crowned heads who have been its ecstatic customers. That's a very general overview; see the particular fragrances for assessments.

Obviously, that represents a particular aesthetic that not everyone will share - nor is everyone meant to.

one star for Mechant Loup?
that... makes no sense. Of course, I've got the book in the mail to me now, though

So it's more about their self-aggrandizement and marketing than about the actual fragrances?

I guess I can find the title on line in a few seconds ... but what's the title of the guide?

http://www.perfumestheguide.com/

Thanks - looks like the first sample review already has a mistake in it!
http://www.perfumestheguide.com/samplereviews.html

He lists the 4 offshoots of Feminite du Bois, which are basically slight variations on the same fragrance as Bois et Fruits, Bois et Musc, Bois de Violette and Bois de Vanille - the last one is totally wrong, the Vanilla variant of the Eaux Boisees is actually Bois Oriental. Bois de Vanille is a whole other monster - a rather unpleasant one in my view, especially compared to the masterful Bois Oriental!

Of course you can argue with success. I can give you a million examples, starting with American Idol. Are you really going to argue that all things popular or successful should be adored by critics?

Maybe he doesn't like Creed fragrances because they don't appeal to his nose.

-Slim

Thank you. That mistake was pointed out by a copy editor and is corrected in the book

is it really Luca Turin?
If it is, why do you hate Creed Fragrances?

Have you read the book ?

Ok, maybe there is a possibility of you being Luca Turin, the author of the book. If that is the case I am sorry for attributing you that opinion.
As you have read, we are wondering if it could be true that you loathe all things Creed. Is it true? If so, why is that?
I am sure we all are interested on reading your opinions about what has been said here.

About me reading the book. As a matter of fact I did not know it was being released yesterday, but I already ordered mine.

Only to be fair to Luca: He gave Green Irish Tweed a really positive review in his earlier version of le guide.

The man is in the business of selling books, although he does have a reputation to maintain. There are probably 2 related elements at play.

1. Contrarianism, especially on the topic of popular things of the day, makes good copy.
2. Sensationalism sells. Rather than grading a scent 4 out of 10, its more interesting if he grades it a 2 out of 10

Yes, true. Though I believe the success of Creed is multi-dimentional (Their frags appeal, they have a long history, and are a little bit exclusive which never hurts!).

I am not sure I would ascribe much to Luca Turin, other than he doesn't like the stuff. My nose tells me I like some Creeds but not others - which is enough for me! Turin's guide is entertaining, but won't turn me off of a thing.

(A bit like Parker's reviews of wine ... brutal at times ... but at least honestly his opinion)

You'll find I trash Creed also. Turin's just got a great nose for mediocrity and calls it like he see's it.

Two hot topics as of late; Creed and Turin. Well, I don't know that what Mr. Turin has to say about Creed will put a dent in the company's success and would not change my view on Creed. However, as many have said, I try to respect the book release as a testament of his passion and cheers to that becuase I support people in pursuing their interests. I just don't feel the type of information contained therein is worthy of compensation.

I can argue with success. Success has nothing to do with quality. It has to do with good marketing. The Volkswagon is an extremely succesfull selling car, but you can't compare it with BMW, Mercedes, Volvo and others. There is a class distinction between them that can't be disputed.

Another example is comparing a SubWay sandwich to a Quizno's. Both sandwich shops are successful, but it doesn't mean for a second that they're great sanwiches. Simply grub in my opinion. Sometimes grub is all I wish to eat, but it's still grub. They're both fast food sandwiches and cannot be compared to a gourmet sandwich served at Bellagio's. Creed is simply a Volkswagon, Fast Food quality fragrances and can not be compared to the greats. Sometimes maybe a Creed is what I feel like wearing, but that doesn't change its pedigree, for which Creed has none.

Creed's creed creedly creedence to Creed. Creed creeded, "CREED! Creeding with creeds creed."

Creed: Creed the creeding creeders!

But seriously, it may be a favorite here on Basenotes but every other thread is about Creed. It's an overwhelming presence and sometimes the threads about Creed read like my satire above. It begins to all sound all the same!

Too bad this isn`t one of MY favourite things. From the day one I started my fragrance-nut career, Creed has been probably the least intriguing niche house to me. Still, I have crabbed along the time some Creed samples, and the effect has been negative.

I don`t really hate Creed, that would be too much, but at the same time I am 100% sure that I will never ever own Creed fragrance.
There is simply SO much, so much more compelling & interesting stuff available.

To me Creed fragrance is not the kind of "money well spent stuff" that I`m always looking for.

I like GIT, but the other Creeds I have sampled are nice enough, sure, but worth the hype and price? I dunno.

I've already ordered so many books this month, but Turin's guide may be a must-read. Who needs groceries?

Because Erolfa was on the Titanic and he was not?

My copy just arrived. I've scanned it. I must say I'm finding it humorous in an "I'm Truman Capote" society, bitchy kind of way.

Even though I don't care for Creeds, I find some of his comments harsh (at least for the ones I've tried).

Overall, I prefer the reviews from his former blog. Taken together, though, it will be a fun education.

@thebeck: Agreed that success and quality are not by necessity related. But your designation of Creed as mediocre and "without pedigree" (what is that supposed to mean?) is entirely arbitrary. By what standards exactly are Creed perfumes "Volkswagens?" Quality of ingredients? Construction? Longevity? Or simply personal preference? Anyway, Volkswagen also builds the Phaeton and happens to own Bentley, Bugatti and Lamborghini. By any measure, Vintage Tabarome and Bois de Santal are Bentleys in their respective categories and while I'm not exactly partial to coconut fragrances, I'd say VIW is the Lamborghini among them, as it sucessfully avoids the almost implicit tackiness (or tikiness ) of the concept.

In a couple of weeks we will have a bunch of Creed fact very much a la Chuck Norisfacts.

I don't think you quite understood the jist of samplermike's remark. What I think he meant was that while you may not agree on Creed making good fragrances or on that the fragrance are worth their price, you can't argue with the fact that they sell so on some level they are successful. Just as Le Male is succesful. Or Cool Water, or Acqua di Giò. Who are we BNers to say that they are bad fragrances when the sales figures tell us differently? Like I said in a different thread, bad fragrances may have nice sales figures in the first period due to marketing but if the juice stinks they don't stick around for years and years.

Aesthetically Creed creats primitive scents (I say it without moral connotation).
To my mind, primitive can be beautiful.

Luca, you big lug, the mistake was pointed out by a *blogger* and we've got to fix it in the next.

Love,
Tbone

My thinking exactly. Good stuff, but there are scents I like more at half the price.

To the guy making the car analogy, I don't know if that comparison works. Cars can be judged by engine, precision of handling, comfort of ride, external appearance, internal comfort, etc... Car prices and prestige are a great example of people putting looks and badge status ahead of actual vehicle performance. A few of the best handling vehicles can be had for less than $30k new, but Miatas, S2000s, and RX-8s aren't going to garner the attention of a Maserati GranTurismo, BMW Z4 or Mercedes SC class.

I've been underwhelmed by Turin's reviews. They don't really help me, and they seem to be about making smells poetic, which doesn't interest me much. I want to know about sillage, longevity, and comparisons, for starters. For example, I just got Nicole Miller for men. It is very similar to Carlo Corinto Silver, except that it is much more subtle, and does not cause olfactory fatigue, as CCS does. This is a key piece of information, but the only place I could get it is at BN, either looking through the reviews and posts, and fortunately coming across something relevant, or starting a new thread and hoping someone responded with useful information.

If I were Turin, I'd make it clear what my criteria were. One problem I've had with movie review shows that I used to watch is that you had no idea what the criteria were. One week a B movie would get a good review (because, apparently, it was not as bad as it appeared to be) and the next week an art film would get a bad review (because it could've been better, I supposed), but this was never stated clearly.

FWIW to anyone, that was likely Mr.Turin and Ms. Sanchez posting above.
It is great to have their presence on the board and it would be nice to be able to ask them specific questions but I fear that threads like this make them run for cover.

I, for one, love Turin's style and I have recently read some of Ms. Sanchez's reviews and find them equally terrific. My copy of the book was delivered today and I look forward to reading and re-reading it.
Everyone will have their specific opinion and criteria for judging a scent and it's all valid IMO.
I think a lot of us have been looking to Basenotes to provide us with information on what to buy and what to stay away from. It seems like Turin and Sanchez are not providing some of you with enough information to make that decision and it doesn't suit you. It also doesn't seem to suit those who disagree with their opinions. That's definitely cool but see the book for what it is and don't knock it until you've read it. As with any fragrance, some will love the book and others will not.

Eric

My copy is on its way from amazon.com.

Does *anyone* know if there is a UK edition and if so when?

I absolutely love LT's passionate, articulate, informed writing on perfume. The folio articles are my favourite read every month and are over so quickly it hurts.

There may well be many fragrances which I like and he doesn't but if he likes it, I consider it worthy of investigation.

I understood. Mc Donalds is still here, but that doesn't mean it's good. They keep selling more and more hamburgers in spite of the obesity rate percentage going through the ceiling. I will always question any fragance lover who only has one house in their wardrobe. One house can not offer the variety that is needed for a complete wardrobe. It reminds of the guy who goes to Denny's seven days a week and orders the same thing for breakfast 365 days a year. BORING!

Profile, September 2008 - it's listed on Amazon UK.

Oh thanks! I looked there yesterday but didn't see it.

Gentlemen posters and all readers, although there's no burning as in flame on this thread, I need to remind everyone of an important Basenotes rule:


It is very important to remember that it is acceptable to criticise the content of a post, but criticising the poster is not.

Thank you everyone.
--Chris

I prefer Creed because most smell undisputedly masculine, natural, and different.

Boring? Good; I'm a man and I want to smell boring.
Conservative? Absolutely; I have many other attributes about me besides my scent.
No sillage? Great; I only want those in my personal space to smell it.
No longevity? Even better; I can re-apply whenever I want to.
Outdated? Perfect; I won't smell like every other Joe Blow out there.
Overrated? Sure; and so is what you enjoy and wear IMHO.

I don't want to smell prettier than my woman, just different. I would not want to take any attention away from her and put it on myself, and neither would she. I have never come across a woman in my lifetime that would.
I spent an hour tonight in Sephora and bought her two fragrances: Clean, and Philosophy Pure Grace. Next, I'm getting her Mitsouko and FlowerBomb. Are they all awesome? Definitely. Would I wear them? Never. If that is close minded of me, well, then guilty as charged. Everything else in that store marketed for men smells either synthetic, immature, and/or flowery/feminine to my nose.

I enjoy lots of other non-Creeds as well...on women and teenagers.

Perhaps Olivier Creed turned Luca Turin down for an interview and this is his payback? Writers are known to have long and bitter memories. In that case I would like to name a fragrance after Mr. Turin and simply call it "Sour Grapes". The best part is that it will contain of that signature Creed ambergris base to inflate Mr. Turin's head any larger than it already is. LOL

This is mere speculation and character assassination. I consider deleting it but for now want the example up of what NOT to feel free to do.

I have already asked for an end to hostilities so I ask now a second time. Leave this battle alone. Use PM for further discussion of hostilities between interested parties. The public forum is not for bickering, personal attacks, or character assassination.

As a moderator I am telling you to stop now. Questions? PM me.
--Chris

Just got reading most of the reviews. I find them hilarious! In a "I call them as I see them" kind of way. It's great. I especially like the two word descriptions. "sad sack" for Just Me for Men, "big amber" for Obession, and "not vetiver" for Creed's Original Vetiver.

I agree with Turin's reviews on Creeds. I think Green Irish Tweed got the highest rating but that's it. Most, I think received 3 stars. I like Green Irsih Tweed more than any other Creed with Bois du Portugal next. Otherwise, they smell like something else I can get.

There are some reviews for other perfumes I don't agree with but it's not like I shot up in my chair and yelled, "No way!". One of my favorites got a one-star but so what. Other people like Creed, I do not. Whatever.

Well 3 out of 5 is hardly a "hate" rating, just an "average" one - if someone disagrees with it, fair enough, but 3/5 is hardly "dissing"

Interestingly enough, GIT and I don't get along - really has way too much "fresh" for my skin (for some reason my skin amps it up). I do appreciate it, but not to my tastes and not good on me.

I really appreciate Luca Turin's writings and his perfume reviews, I have learned a lot from him, and I have always enjoyed reading him. There are even a few fragrances (Chanel Égoïste, Chanel Bois des Iles, Dior Jules, Bulgari Black, Caron Pour un Homme, Serge Lutens Chergui) that I explored after they caught my attention in Turin's reviews and which subsequently became favorites of mine. The fact is that his writings have been nice contributions to my fragrance education.

Something that I especially like about Luca Turin is that he seems to genuinely enjoy life. Frankly, I admire his positive attitude and his joie de vivre. This positive spirit and joy of living comes through very clearly in his writings.

I don't agree with every one of his perfume reviews, but so what? On the other hand, do I enjoy reading his reviews? Yes, I do, and I am also going to enjoy reading this new book.

In regards to Creed --- I have tried all of the Creed masculine and unisex fragrances multiple times. I have yet to find one that I want to add to my wardrobe, and I doubt that I ever will.
.

Well, I liked the Bois de Violette and Osmanthe Yunnan reviews and it looks like a fun book for people like us.

And as for Creeds, I love them, but it's just a matter of taste. They're very watery, certainly overhyped, and way too expensive, but it's always a pleasure to get one at a good price - "Original" Vetiver and "Original" Santal aside, overall Creeds have an original watery and uncluttered style which I appreciate, especially as a counter to my gooey Lutens collection. I look forward to checking the book out.

And by the way, for Canadians, amazon.ca has it listed just as "Perfumes" - if you look for "Perfumes the Guide" you won't find anything.

And by the way, does anyone know if he talks about the new Montales?

Its not just Luca Turin, its Tania Sanchez as well - she has in the past been a very critical of everything Creed (a google search will easily reveal that). I don't think the house of Creed cares or thinks much of what Turin says - they are highly profitable, and arguably the most commercially successfuly niche house on the market today. Many of their fragrances have inspired other juices and have set sales records. Us as a fragrance community can decide for ourselves - in many fragrance blogs (and not just basenotes) Bois du Portugal is highly regarded. 3 stars for BdP? Burr just gave Outrageous! and some other mediocre scent 5 stars. How many of us agree with those ratings? GIT's launch was met with many negative reviews .. but after inspiring other fragrances and becoming a commercial hit, suddenly its getting thumbs up from critics.

Similar is the case for Villoresi. He has won a couple of highly regarded awards in Europe for his perfume artistry - I don't think he cares that Turin rates most of his fragrances as 1 or 2 star juices. He has extensive experience with natural ingredients; alongwith Olivier Creed and Annick Goutal, Villoresi used to hold natural perfumery gatherings at his villa in Italy and at Creed's workshop in France. One can learn from Turin's writings about the industry and ingredients - but its ok to disagree with his reviews. We have our own noses we can trust.

I like a good read and I like the scents that smell nice to my nose.

Outrageous!



Slim

I haven't gotten my copy yet. Amazon just shipped it today, and I'm really looking forward to it.

The thing that amazes me about discussions like this is the mania for absolute ranking of things. In matters of taste, people vary considerably; so of course, no one person's ranking will coincide with everyone else's.

I wear lots of different scents, and I'm far from believing that all of them are wonderful. Sometimes I even wear things that I'm really luke-warm about. I happily wear them all anyway. It gives me a sense of completeness. Not everything can be the best, and for me, life is a mix of the good, the not-so-good, and the plain old boring.

Turin is entitled to his opinion, and everyone else is to theirs as well. I like and respect what I know of him, so I'm more than happy to listen to what he says and then (as usual) make up my own mind. And maybe then I'll change my opinion to agree or disagree, and perhaps go either way in a completely different direction.

I like life to be a total experience, and while I (naturally) prefer pleasant to unpleasant experiences, I'm perfectly happy if a lot of things end up somewhere in the middle. I can't always live on the mountaintop.

To be fair, the post that you quoted was a response to one of mine and I don't feel offended in any way by what thedeck wrote.

I think it is a shame that Luca Turin was attacked and verbally abused when he came to Basenotes in this thread.

We could have had a conversation with Luca Turin, but instead he was attacked.
.

Sigh... all this war just because of some kölner wasser. Girls, lighten up!

I am very sorry that you deleted this post of yours. Your friendly appeal was much appreciated and am grateful somebody made it.

Hello, and welcome, both of you !
As you can see at first glance, this forum has many ways to demonstrate their appreciation and love. Your Guide has been discussed here long before April 10, based on first reviews of it. Unfortunately, most readers in Europe will perhaps not have their copies before another two weeks have passed, and some of us sincerely hope you will stay around until we have all had a chance to read at least parts of it. There will be more ardent questions, I am sure, and it's wonderful that websites like this one make it possible to discuss them with the authors even. Thank you, Tania and Luca joining Basenotes for this purpose !

It sounds like there will be another book, and that's good, because the only problem I have with this one is that it doesn't keep going. My copy has already seen as much action as some of them do in a year.


Hell of a job. And a monumental accomplishment at that!

Luca, Let's do lunch!