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Creed Original Vetiver has [no] vetiver?

post #1 of 24
6/9/08 at 5:50pm
Thread Starter 
I'm confused. Does Creed Original Vetiver have vetiver in it?
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post #2 of 24
6/9/08 at 5:59pm
Yes, it does.

Top notes of ginger, mandarin, and Italian bergamot
Middle notes of vetiver, sandalwood, and iris
Base notes of musk and ambergris
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post #3 of 24
6/9/08 at 6:08pm
Thread Starter 
Is the vetiver note easily detectable to most people?
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post #4 of 24
6/9/08 at 6:28pm
"Is the vetiver note easily detectable to most people?"


As long as you know what it's supposed to smell like! In this case, it's the clean soapy smell also very detectable in Mugler's Cologne. You can easily recognize it that way.
Vetiver, depending on its treatment, can smell anywhere from soapy clean, all the way to dirty/earthy/musty and even bitter.
A slightly "dusty" version is in YSL's Pour Homme.
A slightly earthy and bitter version in Guerlain's, turn up the earthiness n Villoresi's, and even harsher in MPG's Route du Vetiver.
There are many more examples of course.
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post #5 of 24
6/9/08 at 7:02pm
Thread Starter 
So the "Ivory soap" smell in Original Vetiver is the soapy vetiver?
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post #6 of 24
6/9/08 at 8:11pm
The soapy smell is actually a combo of ginger and cedar. The vetiver does not come into play until the dry down when it literally smells like musty dirt.
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post #7 of 24
6/10/08 at 2:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by samplermike View Post

The soapy smell is actually a combo of ginger and cedar. The vetiver does not come into play until the dry down when it literally smells like musty dirt.

Yes. I think part of that soapy accord is also the aroma chemical which smells of fresh cut grass - I forget the name- there is lots of it in OV and I love it. The vetiver is not a big loud one but quite subtle. It also takes a long time to emerge with enough strength to be detectible in its own right. I suspect that Turin didn't wait long enough to notice it - hence his "not vetiver" comment.

I recently did a long study of OV and creed vetiver '48 (on paper and porous wood). After a long time (about a day) they both have a distinct and (surprisingly) very similar vetiver note.
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post #8 of 24
6/10/08 at 3:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by petruccijc View Post

Yes, it does.

Top notes of ginger, mandarin, and Italian bergamot
Middle notes of vetiver, sandalwood, and iris
Base notes of musk and ambergris

You are aware that marketing people make up these pyramids, aren't you?
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post #9 of 24
6/10/08 at 9:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by samplermike View Post

The soapy smell is actually a combo of ginger and cedar. The vetiver does not come into play until the dry down when it literally smells like musty dirt.

There really is no substitute for smelling real vetiver before you try to identify it in a fragrance. Vetiver has an unmistakable -- and strong -- smell of rich, loamy dirt and roots.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereotomy View Post

You are aware that marketing people make up these pyramids, aren't you?

Hear, hear! Notes != ingredients. Notes == what the thing is supposed to remind us of mainly. Ingredients == the chemicals that are actually in there.

Although vetiver is not terribly expensive, is it? I would imagine that there would be real stuff in a fragrance rather than some substitute.
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post #10 of 24
6/10/08 at 9:50am
I can't help but snicker when people take the pyramids as their ingredient list for a scent. There are hundreds and hundreds of different compounds in a scent. It's not this:



It's this:



... times 100x as complex. Note pyramids are created by the marketing department with or without close cooperation with the perfumer - and sometimes even before the perfumer starts working - and are an indication what people can perceive in a scent. It's NOT an ingredient list.
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post #11 of 24
6/10/08 at 10:55am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by samplermike View Post

The soapy smell is actually a combo of ginger and cedar.

You know, I re-sniffed, and you're right. I don't know why that didn't occur to me before. Thanks, samplermike!
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post #12 of 24
6/10/08 at 10:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereotomy View Post

It's not this:



It's this:


R. O. F. L.
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post #13 of 24
6/10/08 at 11:01am
Thread Starter 
So, if notes != ingredients, (correct me if I'm wrong) no one really knows *for sure* if there's vetiver in Creed's Original Vetiver? Is it proprietary information?

(Next thread: Does Pink Sugar have [no] sugar? Just kidding.)
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post #14 of 24
6/10/08 at 11:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiona View Post

So the "Ivory soap" smell in Original Vetiver is the soapy vetiver?


I am not good at describing things, but when I wore it, I thought it was just me that smelled soap.
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post #15 of 24
6/10/08 at 11:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiona View Post

So, if notes != ingredients, (correct me if I'm wrong) no one really knows *for sure* if there's vetiver in Creed's Original Vetiver? Is it proprietary information?

(Next thread: Does Pink Sugar have [no] sugar? Just kidding.)

You can be 99% sure that a house like Creed that 'pride' themselves with using 'natural ingredients' that Original Vetiver contains, at least partly, extracted essences from natural Vetiver.

But for comparison, take Mugler Cologne: Mugler's marketing department did not put vetiver in the pyramid, yet you do smell vetiver.

Perception does not equal reality in perfumery. It's hard to grasp for some people, especially those who stare themselves blind into everything the marketing department throws at them, such as the pyramids.
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post #16 of 24
6/10/08 at 12:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereotomy View Post

You are aware that marketing people make up these pyramids, aren't you?

No!! Really?? They just don't make the perfume by putting those 8 ingredients in a blender?

Jeez - the only point I was trying to make is that I think Original Vetiver does actually contain vetiver as one of it's ingredients - which was the original question. I felt that showing the pyramid would help make that point clearer - sorry I did not have a list of all of the ingredients (the actual "recipe"). I certainly know and understand that notes <> ingredients. But if I see vetiver in the notes, own the actual fragrance, and happen to be wearing the fragrance as my SOTD - then my opinion is that it does contain vetiver. Now if I see something like "candied orange peel" in the notes, well I am not going to think that bits of it are floating around in the fragrance.

So if you think or know that Original Vetiver does not contain vetiver, then please feel free to disagree and correct me if I am wrong - maybe I am. But please don't insult me.

Excuse me for now, I have to go buy the Brooklyn Bridge................
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post #17 of 24
6/10/08 at 12:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiona View Post

So, if notes != ingredients, (correct me if I'm wrong) no one really knows *for sure* if there's vetiver in Creed's Original Vetiver? Is it proprietary information?

Well, someone at Creed possibly knows what's in it, but, yes, the formula is a trade secret, like the formula for Coca-Cola.

Given how plentiful natural vetiver is, how relatively inexpensive it is, and its long use in perfumery, I would assume that there's some vetiver in it somewhere. But you know what happens when you make assumptions . . . .
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post #18 of 24
6/10/08 at 12:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by petruccijc View Post

The main and only point I was trying to make is that Original Vetiver contains vetiver - which was the original question. I felt that showing the pyramid would make that point clearer. If you think it does not contain vetiver, then please feel free to disagree and correct me if I am wrong.

I do think that there might be vetiver in it. However, we cannot base that on the pyramid. Some perfumes have "magnolia" or "muguet" in the notes, but they cannot possibly contain oils from those flowers, because there is no known way to extract reasonable quantities from them. Those notes have been composed by entirely other materials. As another example, Azzaro Now Women claims to have notes of "amber rum" -- well there's no such thing. Azzaro Now Men is supposed to have notes of "white leather," and of course there's no leather in leather fragrances, there are materials which approximate the smell of the chemicals used to tan leather.

The term "notes" seems to have been borrowed from oenophilia. A wine may have notes of blackcurrant or leather or tar, meaning only that is what it tastes like, not that it literally has been adulterated with those things.

Notes are useful in giving us some idea of what a fragrance may smell like to us, but they are not useful in telling what actually is in there.
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post #19 of 24
6/10/08 at 12:59pm
Quote:
Notes are useful in giving us some idea of what a fragrance may smell like to us, but they are not useful in telling what actually is in there.

Quite well put.
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post #20 of 24
6/10/08 at 1:00pm
While it's true muguet is a flower that it is either impossible or financially unfeasible to extract oil from (along with violet flower, iris flower, lilac, hyacinth, etc) magnolia flowers actually do produce oil, as well as the leaf of the magnolia flower (michelia alba leaf.)
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post #21 of 24
6/10/08 at 1:03pm
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Originally Posted by SculptureOfSoul View Post

While it's true muguet is a flower that it is either impossible or financially unfeasible to extract oil from (along with violet flower, iris flower, lilac, hyacinth, etc) magnolia flowers actually do produce oil, as well as the leaf of the magnolia flower (michelia alba leaf.)

Quite right. I must have been thinking of one of the others.
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post #22 of 24
6/10/08 at 1:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiona View Post

I'm confused. Does Creed Original Vetiver have vetiver in it?

To answer your quesiton directly - I don't know if it has any vetiver in it, but like you, I can't detect it either. I have a few different bottles of vetiver, as well as several bottles of vetiver-based scents, and none of them have anything in common with Original Vetiver. If there's a vetiver note in OV, its not like any vetiver I've ever smelled before (which may be the case).

The rest of the battle here will be creed vs. anti-creed, so its pretty much irrelevant.
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post #23 of 24
6/10/08 at 3:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiona View Post

I'm confused. Does Creed Original Vetiver have vetiver in it?

Back to the original topic..............

Creed "claims" that "Vetiver from Haiti" is used in Original Vetiver. Whether that is true or not, I do not know. Choose to believe it or not.
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post #24 of 24
6/10/08 at 4:12pm
Creed does use some natural ingredients in ALL their colognes. They are one of the only houses to still use the old fashion infusion method, long since abandoned by modern perfumers. This contributes to their signature "natural" feel and may explain why their shelf life is less than other manufacturers. Of course, synthetics are still used to enhance longevity and sillage. I know Original Vetiver does infact contain some real Haitian Vetiver. Exactly how much is a mystery and you cannot really discern it until several hours after application.

"The House of Creed’s commitment has always been developing fragrances using traditional and conventional ways, an ancient method called INFUSION. This method consist in “preparing herbs in which 1 to 2 teaspoons of dried herb or 2 to 4 fresh herbs (flowers and berries are substitutable) is "infused" or placed in oil or water (which does not need to be boiled), and then, after about ten minutes, is strained. Waiting too long before straining results in bitter tasting herbs. The herb/ botanical is then removed from the oil and the oil is used in the many formulas that call for short-term infused oils. The first recorded use of essential oils was in the 10th century by the Persian chemist Avicenna” (INFUSION meaning taken from WIKIPEDIA online)."
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