Bottle splits, decants

A 50 ml portion of parfum strength fragrance seems very high to me. It is not unusual for large size parfum to come in a 30 ml flacon which can be split into 6 x 5ml portions. This policy clearly does not encompass all scenarios.

Asha, in effect, makes two suggestions: that in the case of group buys of parfum strength fragrances 1) bottle sizes smaller than 250 ml should be allowed and 2) split sizes smaller than 50 ml should be allowed.

I feel very strongly that the latter (smaller splits of parfum-strength scents) should be allowed. Full, retail bottles of parfum-strength fragrances are almost always smaller than 50 ml, so requiring that splits be 50 ml or larger seems arbitrary (and who needs 50 ml of pure perfume?).

I also think that Asha's first suggestion (allowing bottles of parfum-strength frangrances smaller than 250 ml to be the subject of group buys) makes sense, though I understand that you'd still want the size to be larger than a conventional retail bottle. While splitting a 30 ml bottle of perfume is a fine idea, 30 ml is a standard retail size of, e.g., many Guerlain perfume extract bottles. Could 100 ml work as a minimum parfum-strength fragrance group buy bottle size?

A 250 ml bottle of extract of Vol de Nuit costs 1148.58 USD.
A 500 ml bottle of extract of Vol de Nuit costs 1756.30 USD.

A Guerlain extract that you buy from elsewhere than Guerlain is usually 7.5 ml or 30 ml.

Why does basenotes have a policy forbidding decants and splits smaller than 50mL? Basenotes does not profit from the sale, basenotes does not require any sort of listing fee nor does basenotes require a membership fee for sellers to operate. Although I don't care one way or another as I don't plan on buying decants or splits it just seems to be a very arbitrary rule that has no reasonable justification.

Ostensibly it is the same reason why ebay had to forbid the sale of decants that the same was done in basenotes. Its not something that ebay did want to do. After all it was making money from decant listings. I believe it were the perfume companies who put forth an arguement that the decants were an infringement on their trademark as they were not sold in the 'original' packing.

I remember when Grant enforced this rule here, he mentioned that basenotes had become too large to escape from the prying eyes of 'these perfume manufacturers' and therefore had to abide by the law. Ofcourse you don't necessarily have to pay to be able to be part of this forum but it does not mean you are insulated from the law and certainly not when you are as big as basenotes has become to be.

It's a shame: decants are *the* way to enjoy this hobby to the fullest. I can understand Grant's policy though, and I even can understand the fragrance manufacturer's stance. They're no non-profit organisations.

It's more the fear of a lawsuit (where money can win anything). Decanting perfumes is no different than selling a cracker out of a box of crackers, or a partially used bottle. People just bend over and sign more of their rights away every day out of fear.

Stuigi, you can delete my thread on Vol de Nuit.

Thx and sorry for the trouble ...

Basenotes is not the same type of business as eBay. eBay is actively making money off sales, listing fees etc, basenotes doesn't. If the problem is with perfumes being sold without the original packaging, how can companies like Luckyscent, Aedes, First in Fragrance, Parfums Raffy et al legally sell samples in aftermarket 1mL sample vials? Why have the fragrance companies not come down or even threatened TPC, the Posh Peasant, or forums like the Crystal Flacon who sell decants or allow sales of decants?


The law forbid eBay and other auction sites, I don't think it mentioned anything about forums like basenotes.

I understand Grant is being cautious, and as the man responsible for basenotes his decision is law as far as what can and cannot be done on the boards. But it still doesn;t stop me wondering if his banning of decants and after sales splits wasn't erring on the side of too much caution.

I agree with that already


Good question...except I wouldn't put Parfums Raffy/Luckyscent in the same category as TPC.....Parfums Raffy and Luckyscent are authorised retailers and if they hand out/sell samples its fine.....but yeah....how TPC can do it and at the scale at which they are doing it, I am sure they aren't doing anything thats outlawed.....Anyone out there with an explanation?

Because there is no friggen law! There is no law that says you can't slap something you buy and divide it into different amounts and resell it (assuming you aren't misrepresenting the product). Decanting fragrances is NOT illegal! There is no law that says you can't buy some cookies in a Wal-Mart, and go outside and resell them at a bake sale. You are not misrepresenting the product, you are simply reselling it. This is a simple case of big bullies making threats.

Holey shmoleys! I could buy a new car for that amount. Well, okay, not a new car, but a newer car.

I always thought that the administrators here forbid decant sales were weary of people diluting and mixing shit so as to screw with the decants.

Isn't sort of like saying, you can buy a keg of beer, but you cannot sell it by the glass? I mean I'd understand if it was reselling the product under a different brand, but it is ridiculous to argue that trademarks are the reason why we can't sell decants.

If we can't sell decants I wish we could at least swap decants. I used to do this a lot and got to try a lot of new fragrances. I have a bunch of empy decant roll-ons and don't know what to do with them.

Hell, were selling some company's products here on a daily basis. What possible difference could the amount make? If I purchase a bottle of fragrance X here, that means I am not purchaseing that bottle from one of their distributers, and am doing so because their prices are getting way out of line. Why aren't they more concerned about that, than somebody selling 5, or 8 ml. of their product? What a bunch of dumb asses!

Since the rules changed, people have found new ways to swap and sell decants. Where there's a will.....

I used to swap and sell decants here too. After the rules here changed, I had to find other ways to do it. I got so much more business doing it in a way that keeps Basenotes out of it I became overwhelmed and have had to stop it entirely for a while.

Change is generally difficult. But sometimes it forces us to find better ways to git 'er done.

Anyone is welcome to use this site to arrange for splits:
http://scentsplits.wikidot.com/current-splits

But then again, us .001% of the population accounts for 76% of the perfume trade (I just made that up).

My original post has more do to with the idea that a 50ml portion of parfum or extrait is ludicrous. If Grant sees fit to disallow smaller decants for parfums, then there will never be any parfum splits on this board, even though proportionately it makes sense to have smaller bulk bottles and smaller size splits.

I am sure Grant could just as easily forbid ALL splits, so I only give my opinion FWIW.

I can give you guys a lot of logic for why the policy is what it is, and I can tell you the parts of it that have less logic also. But the policy is what it is and everyone needs to respect that. In some sense I had a role in crafting the bulk purchases policy, so I can answer for how it came to be.

I do so so that the information helps members understand, not so that there are two hundred replies disputing my thoughts and insisting on a reconsideration and a change.

The site, from its owner, has a no-decant-exchange policy on the public forums. (I'm afraid we're sort of end-of-story here. That's the policy.) The policy makes clear that fragrances exchanged here have to be in standard manufacturer's bottles only. Standard manufacturer's bottles only. No decants.

However, some manufacturers make their products available in very large--bulk--quantities, at substantial discount when cost-to-quantity ratio is examined. Those are really nice manufacturers. When they make these large amounts available, they almost always do so EXPECTING themselves that the liquid of these large amounts will be poured into smaller bottles that will make application to bodies easier. For example, they sell their bulk amounts in screw cap splash bottles, say, expecting that they'll be poured into smaller atomizers. Great. So the manufacturer's already know their juice is going into a different bottle. The Basenotes "standard manufacturer's bottles only" stipulation seems to apply less strongly for these bulk purchases as a result. But only for these bulk purchases.

A most important point behind the existence of the bulk purchases policy: those bulk bottles are still damned expensive! Damn! Costs so damn much to save money--sure the cost-to-quantity ratio is mega savings, but only because there's so damned much quantity. Blast! I still can't affort that--cripes--and can't even use all that bulk. Call Dr. Kevorkian, I'm ready now.

Where else is there to go to find fellow cost concerned fragrance lovers who have the same interest I do? Where can I go and find people to share the price and the BULK with me so that we can all be happy, smell kick ass, and still buy drinks when we get to the bar with our new scents on? Basenotes! It only makes sense that members would find each other HERE to combine interest in bulk purchases. Who are we kidding? There's no way the site would want to get in the way of such wise consumerism. So it's permitted even though the bulk is broken into bottles that are not standard manufacturers bottles.

No smaller than 50ml. A poster above complains that that size is arbitrary. Another poster above complains that that size kills extrait or straight parfum bulk purchases. I'll deal with both.

"Arbitrary." Not entirely, but there is a measure of arbitrary to it, yes. There are two reasons why 50ml is the cut off. First is out of respect for the "standard manufacturer's bottles only" stipulation. Standard manufacturers bottles are usually 50ml or larger. We make the cutoff at 50ml out of respect for that standard measurement. Thus breakdowns of the bulk are done in amounts that are standard. Whoa, wait a minute, there are lots of 30ml bottles out there, mister, lots of manufacturers make a standard 30ml so how about that? Why can't I already? Why not fix the limit at 30ml since the almighty industry does, hunh? Here's the reason: because we need a cutoff and we need an across the board standard one and we need to come off a bulk purchase, and we fixed on 50ml so we wouldn't get whittled down to 25, to 20, or down to mere decant size. Go ahead, complain about the arbitrariness that's the result--we, or I, picked 50ml, I picked that number instead of a lower number. But I didn't pick 50ml because it was a donkey's rear and I put the tail on it blindfolded. I said 50ml because 50ml is the USUAL small size available in standard manufacturers bottle sizing. Some go smaller, but not everyone does. Some manufacturers go smaller, but at Basenotes the policy is bulk purchases are broken into divisions no smaller than 50ml.

Now the second reason: anything smaller comes closer to looking like decant sales. What's the difference between 25ml and 30ml, Mr. Mod? Come on, man, I'm trying to break it down even-steven and I want to sell 4 divisions of 25ml instead of 3 of 30ml, which will leave me stuck with 10ml and out that money, dude. Come on, no fair! This is the last 100ml of my big bulk purchase, jeeeez, and you've got it in for me, breakin' my balls when I'm just trying to be a good guy with 4 of your members who want to buy, isn't that rich!

The second reason is that the smaller the division, the closer it is to decants, and would thus be a way around the words of the no-decant-exchanges policy. 50ml is the bottom limit. This site's marketplace exists for friends to make advantageous exchanges with fellow members, not for volume profiteering, volume selling, or volume distribution. Inconvenient if you want smaller amounts, yes, but in that case this marketplace isn't for you.

The bulk policy is for ten friends, let's say ten for an example, to get together and get 1000ml, let's say. They arrange in advance and the divisions are all spoken for. That's also a rule of the bulk purchases policy. No member can use the public boards to make a bulk purchase with only a couple fellow purchasers, and then use the boards to sell off remaining divisions to not-yet-found purchasers. You can't make a purchase of 1000ml yourself and advertise that you'll sell off the other divisions now that you've got the bottle. Size doesn't matter here, as that starts to look like sales of decants. All divisions of bulk purchases need to be arranged in advance of the purchase.

No division of a bulk purchase can be offered for re-sale or exchange on the public boards of Basenotes. Aw cripe, whadda ya mean? I bought the thing here, I guess I don't like it enough, and I'm trying to sell exactly the same bottle to anyone else who wants it--and someone is gonna! Jeeez! Sorry, now it's not a bulk purchase you're selling, and what you're selling isn't in the standard manufacturer's bottle, so the standard manufacturer's bottle stipulation applies. Because you bought it in a bulk purchase here doesn't mean you can publically re-sell it here if you don't like the scent. Sorry, that's the way it is. I guess if you buy at the discount that comes with joining a bulk purchase you take your chances.

Now about Aiona's fine point of how the 50ml cutoff puts a crimp in extrait deals. Let me first say that there aren't many bulk purchases here at Basenotes. In fact there seems to be more questioning of the policy than purchases of anything it is meant to govern. Indeed the policy was made with eaux de toilette sales in mind. All of the bulk purchases in question have been, although in one case a member might have been seeking to sell some edp under an understanding of the policy, I can't remember for sure right now. Anyway, yes, guilty as charged, the ml counts are done with edt in mind as that's the traffic in almost every case.

It might still apply to a bulk purchase of 30ml of extrait--it would depend. If we thought the manufacturer expected the 30ml of extrait would be broken down into divisions before use like we expect of a manufacturer selling bulk purchase of 1000ml edt, then maybe we'd allow that bulk purchase of 30ml of extrait to proceed. Maybe not though, maybe most likely not, because 30ml of extrait can still be a standard manufacturer's bottle intended for one person's use from right out of that bottle. IT WOULD DEPEND. We'd look at it on a case-by-case basis. What we wouldn't do, however, is throw our hands up in the air and say, well, since we could break down a bulk purchase of 30ml extrait into 3 divisions of 10ml each, well then, I guess we can't say the same can't happen for edt bulks, and why not have everyone selling whatever they want in 10ml bottles of their own choosing. And heck, why not chuck this ladies-and-gentlemen-agreement thing about needing all the divisions spoken for in advance of purchase? Why not just have everyone selling whatever they want in 10ml "splits" and why not let them do so out of all the 50ml and 100ml bottles of whatever they have already? I guess since extrait can conceivably be broken down to 10ml bottles, that breaks down everything, and golly, I guess we'd have to let the edt selling partisans use that size too. So, shucks.

That would make meaningless the very direct no-decant-exchanges policy. The bulk purchase permission is not a back door to decant sales and exchanges. If someone is going to try to arrange a 100ml purchase of extrait and wants to do it as a bulk purchase here, heck, we might be entirely with you. All you'd need to do is ask and if we're okay with it it would be easy to put a note in your sales thread that the bulk purchase of this extrait was permitted. All it takes is asking.

Also I defined a bulk purchase as 250ml or larger. 250ml is the bottom limit for what a bulk purchase is. (I said that twice now but it's late and I'm forgiving myself for that and all other editing and grammatical mistakes.) You could say that's an arbitrary cutoff, and to some extent you'd be right again. But the situation needs a cutoff, and if I had allowed the cutoff to be at 100ml, or 120mls, it would again make meaningless the no-decant-exchanges policy. 500ml seemed high as a minimum cutoff, and a member brought to my attention that he wanted to do bulk purchases of bottles that the manufacturer made available at 250ml. (Five divisions of 50ml, he said.) So I said 250ml seems like a good, round number, it even sounds pretty to the ear. I suddenly liked that for policy. Done! Fiat 250ml minimum cutoff, obey!

Oh yes, but different strenths of fragrance juice should command different division minimums and different minimum cutoff definitions I hear. In some measure I'm sympathetic to the plight, but in some measure I'm not--too much to think about, in a sense. Oh it's an edp you say? Hmmmm, that would put it right in the middle between edt standards and extrait standards, right? Hmmm, let's work up some different ml measurements then! Hogwash. It's late and it's making devils in details. We'll consider exceptions to the policy, all you need to do is ask, because in a sense the bulk purchase policy is itself an exception to the no-decant-exchanges policy, but the bulk purchases policy, and its weaknesses--its frustrations rather--are not a way around or a step to elimination of the no-decant-exchanges policy.

It's late and I'll try to remember to edit and spell check this post tomorrow. I've been very hard on Aiona who does ask a spectacular and justified question above, and I publically apologize to her for that now--my rhetoric goes beyond the mere explanation that I could have done. Sorry, Aiona, you're kind of my straight guy in a comedy routine here--I've only been extravagant to get a point across to many readers, and have no wish to disparage what is an excellent and thoughtful point.

Best to all, but this is what the policy is.
--Chris

hey Chris,
Just a little note...
I think that you publicly apologized to the wrong poster. It should be to Asha, not Aiona.

LOL! Thanks, dimples! I kind of stopped reading this thread because I'll probably never purchase an extrait anyway, so I wouldn't have caught that at all! It's nice to be apologized to, though! Even if it wasn't me he was referring to. 'Kinda makes up for all the crappy stuff I had to deal with Monday at work.

Apology accepted, DustB!

Oh my, thank you very much Dimples.

My renewed, and seconded apologies to Asha and Aiona for sure. Let the word go out: Dimples, Aiona, and especially Asha are all permitted and encouraged to call me an idiot henceforth. And they'll be right.

Sorry Asha!
--Chris

250..10..100..500..50..3..25...30..ZAP! ummm where am i ! thnx for the clarifcation DustB

nobody asked me..but, can't we take this outside BN...? seems thts the only way to do it.

Chris, I knew who and what you meant, so no explanation or apology needed.

Although I did not initiate the Vol de Nuit split, I want to point out that it WAS a bulk purchase. I think saying after the fact that the person could have asked for permission is a bit offputting. The rules say 50 ml, no exceptions, so now that the thread has been closed (rather heavyhandedly), you are now saying it could have been avoided with advance consulting of the mods? Sounds like what you are saying is that an advance "no" is less hard than one after the fact. If there were any chance at all that permission could have been obtained, then the thread did not need to be made as an example of bad behavior.

Forgive me again, Asha, but this time because I'm entirely unaware of the closed thread you're mentioning, a Vol de Nuit sale in any form, or any previous communication about how hard and solid the 50ml cutoff is. I wasn't involved in that conversation with you that I remember and am entirely in the blank presently about it. If it was I, I don't know how long ago it was, and either way, I regret that I don't remember or know about it. I have to deal with plenty of things that come up on the forums and many times they run together, one replaces another in my memory, or I don't have the full available time to take care of an answer/explanation that completely comforts a member. Sometimes I answer with the rule as quickly and cleanly as I can because the information has to be passed. I regret all consequent awkwardness, but that's the reality for me.

I strongly believe I was not involved in the thread you mention being closed, but I may have been and regret all inconvenience and awkwardness.

Back to the issue.

What can I say? If members have a request for an exception to the bulk purchase rules, they can ask for it. I'll give you possible hypothetical examples:

--Hey, there's a two-hundread-year-old bottle of Houbigant--the very same scent Marie Antoinette wore on the ride to Varennes--for sale somewhere. It's only 100ml, but because Marie got caught while wearing it, it goes for a whole lot of money. Can I try to arrange a bulk purchase with Basenoters so that we can each put in a hundred USD or something and each get 5ml from the resulting purchase?

Likely we'll say hell yeah go forward. Maybe my example of Marie Antoinette's Hobigant makes it sound like you'd need a supremely special case for an exception to be made. Let me rephrase the question so that it isn't so far fetched: Hey, 100mls of a very special very old bottle of scent is going for sale suddenly somewhere and it's too expensive for me, but I'd like just some of it because it's so old and rare--can I see if there are other Basenoters interested so we could combine to get it? Hell yeah, go forward!

You'll then make a sale thread and Stuigi, probably, will reply to it saying this member asked for an exception to the bulk purchase rules for this very special and rare scent only available in such a small quantity. It seems really cool and special enough to have it offered on the public boards.

Right now other examples of possible reasons we'd make exceptions don't come to me. We probably wouldn't allow an exception if the exception would make us feel like it got around the other rules of the site which we ask other members to adhere to.

Believe me, we have to ask members to adhere to the rules with some regularity, even when the members know the rules. If granting an exception seems to abuse the rules we ask others to follow, and we don't have a good reason (like a very special purchase together) then we won't grant an exception and we will reply, no, 50ml is the cutoff.

We don't please everyone. We wish we could, and we let ourselves fall asleep by telling ourselves that we-are-with-the-forces-of-good, we-are-with-the-forces-of-good, when we lie awake waiting for sleep.

When I say anyone can ask for an exception, I don't say that after the fact to assauge any guilt or shame I might have for earlier rejection, and I don't say anyone can ask for an exception for my own rhetorical power in who's-right-and-who's-wrong finger pointing.

I say anyone can ask for an exception for future clarity and for readers of this thread to remember that in the future they can check out if they might try a weird or special unique case under the bulk purchases rules.

I would hate to stop the chance for the bulk purchase rules to be in use, but I have to tell you this is a lot of fuss for me. Fuss that could be avoided if we just flat out said no bulk purchases, no decant exchanges, STANDARD MANUFACTURERS' BOTTLES ONLY. Jenson is right above--all these ml measurements are a haze and blurr together. I'd have less vulnerabilty to charges of confusion if we chucked the permission for bulk purchases and said the no-decants-exchanges rule is the be all and end all.

Is it still possible if the seller now requests for the special permission to do bulk purchase of Vol de Nuit parfum?
If it is possible, what do the moderator need? Scanned request letter with signature? or just email?

Send Stuigi, the moderator of this forum and the other Marketplace forum a personal message. Tell him you'd like to try doing a special bulk purchase of Vol de Nuit, or whatever the special scent is, tell him the amount it is available in, tell him the strenth it is available in, tell him how much it is going to cost for the bulk, that you'll be the one making the purchase once the other bulk purchasers are found (if it ends up you can post the request for fellow bulk purchasers on the sale board), and how many other purchasers you'll want and what amount will be in each split. And I guess the cost of what each split will be. Tell him you want to ask his permission to use the public forum of Basenotes to for this purchase.

He'll either know right away that it fits or doesn't fit, or he'll ask the rest of the moderators if it fits with the rules. Either way he or the other moderators will get back to you.

Bear in mind that Stuigi, the other moderators, and I all have an interest in maintaining the integrity of the rules we ask all members to follow--especially the rule that there are to be no decant exchanges through the public boards. Not all cases fit those rules however, so in those cases it makes sense that they be treated outside the rules, yet through case-by-case examination.

One more thing Basenotes moderators will need to be aware of, should there be exceptions sought for extrait bulk purchases, is whether or not it will appear that by granting a few of them, that it will appear Basenotes informally has an extrait-decant-sales only policy. If we seem to have that policy, it will make meaningless the no-decants policy. But there are exceptions to the bulk purchases is policy, which is itself an exception to the no-decants policy, as previously stated.
--Chris

Chris, this sticky showed up soon after the Vol de Nuit bulk purchase thread was closed, so I am pretty sure that is what precipitated it. All of my posts have been in response to the closing of that thread, because the split was for Vol de Nuit extrait, and I think 5ml sized splits are completely reasonable for an extrait. At least the mod left the thread open for a short time so people could get their bearings.

I am sure moderating is not always easy, so you do not need to explain it to me. I perhaps wrongly expected things to be handled with a little more finesse, especially since the proposed split size was a good-hearted and reasonable gesture, not meant to skirt or mock the rules. And it WAS a bulk purchase, so was not completely out of line.

Asha,
I went through the guts of the forum and found the thread you're referring to. First time I've seen it. I must say straight up, and not out of solidarity, but I really respect what Stuigi, the moderator, did in this case. He applied the rules as he knew them and as they did clearly apply. He left the thread up after warning that he was going to close it because of the rule violations and said he was doing so so that the members on it could find each other, make a record of each other, and continue as they were able since the public forum was not going to be available to them (personal messages, although less convenient, were and are still available).

And the closing of the thread because of the rules presages what I mentioned in my last reply above, the predicament the site would be in if it allowed decanting of extrait only. I read the thread and thought Stuigi really knew what he was doing, and when in doubt, he made a call and went with it. My hat's off to my fellow mod. Further, he made sure an explanation of the policy thread was posted (this one), and I've got every reason to believe as you do, that closing the Vol de Nuit thread prompted this very thread that's sticky.

I guess if there were a question posed to us by PM if a way for very small measures of extrait to be decanted under the bulk purchases policy we'd think it over and I don't know what we would decide and I don't know what I decide. Stuigi looked at what he knew and had available and made an excellent decision and even looked out for members who'd wanted to be involved in the "bulk" extrait purchase.

All the mods have to make sure that the site's rules are followed and that they're not inadvertently or directly avoided through re-casting reality in different language on the order of "this is a bulk purchase, not a decant sale, heavens no!" So we have to look at that and when examples present themselves we've got to make a decision. Stuigi obviously looked at the example, compared it to the rules, and made a decision. The right one unless we can think that an exception is called for. And he left the thread up for a while so that members could keep current with each other. Excellent work.

I'm sorry it's inconvenient, but Basenotes does have the no-decants policy and our need to enforce it across the board.

Chris, you do not need to explain it to me, although I am sure others will benefit by reading your posts.

What I don't understand is why I keep seeing sales threads by non-supporting members with less than 500 posts go by, while a member in good standing is not even afforded the courtesy of a PM before her thread is locked.

For certain there's a lesson in that for all of us.

With regards to members with fewer than 500 posts making sales threads, just so that all readers of this thread understand, the rules permit members who've been members for over a year to be able to use the Marketplace boards even if what they put there is their first post to the site.

I hear you otherwise Asha, and I thank you for your point.
--Chris

Yesterday, I wanted to see whether or not enough people had signed up for splitting a 500 ml bottle. I spent a while to find the thread - in vain. Search only found this thread for me. Can somebody please tell us what actually happened to the other thread. It hasn't simply been closed, has it? I am very interested in learning what actually happened. After all I had confirmed being interested in the Vol de Nuit deal myself.

If a thread is moved by administrators, there is a notification and one is redirected to the new place. When a thread is locked, it is still available to read. I can normally benefit from locked threads in many ways like learn a lesson, copy it, take notes, and/or notify others if I wish. But when its wiped out anything positive that's been connected to it is being destroyed also.

Contact the thread starter. Maybe the thread starter will see your note and contact you.

The thread was deleted and for rather obvious reasons--it violated policies. Were it left up, locked even, wouldn't that simply leave the same deal present and use the public forums in a way that violates the rules still? It would. It was deleted and removed.

Perhaps that's frustrating, perhaps it seems to suggest disapproval of the thread's creation, and maybe readers think there's hostility and misplaced irritation with the thread and sale's creator, maybe readers think the sale maker was innocently acting against the rules. The sale and thread violated the rules. Perhaps innocently, in the sense that everyone who wants to sell and make members happy by selling to them is innocently trying to do a good thing. I think we can all believe in the sale creator's benevolence.

But the thread violated the rules and locking it but leaving it up would be to permit the use of the public forums at Basenotes against the rules. The sale could and would continue because of the use of the public exposure.

The moderator here left it up for a grace period so that what was going to happen to it could be announced and seen by parties that followed the thread. But that can only go on so long. I think it was a shorter period than you would like, Narcus.

If you expressed interest and examined the details I hope you examined and can remember who it was you would be dealing with if you were to be a part of the deal, Narcus. If so you can use the personal message feature to inquire. Or any fellow reader here who knows can point you in the right direction.

What's the rules in regards to members using their signature to advert off-basenote sales, which include decants or splits?

I don't know where to post this as my thread has been deleted. I therefore decided to post it here.

The Vol de Nuit extract group purchase started on a French forum, www.beautetest.com (perfume section), where there is a very nice and friendly atmosphere. Some of the girls there have the chance to live in Paris and sometimes buy very special things for all of us, perfumes we would never have the possibility to discover elsewhere in the world, gems of the French perfumery.

As I am on both forums, I just (stupidly maybe) thought some of you would be happy to discover this beautiful and mythic perfume as well and happily came here to suggest we shared a big bottle of 500 ml of Vol de Nuit.

My concern now is that my thread stayed on BN for about a week before being deleted and that many of you responded positively. Unfortunately, because of what happened here, we decided to go for a 250 ml bottle. This means that we won't have enough perfume for everybody here. We therefore decided to send a small amount of perfume to the ones who sent me their private address, and only these, not the others.

I am terribly sorry for all the others, feel bad about this and want to apologise.

I also want to apologise to Stuigi, DustB and Grant for my behaviour, I should have asked for permission before, you're right, but I don't know the forum and the mentality here well enough, I never open this section of the forum ... I've been on BN for more than a year now and only sent samples to a friend once. I'm not here to make business.

Now to come back to the "Bottles splits and decants" thread, I second Asha's point of view about extracts. Her remarks are quite logical and worth thinking about.

Good evening to all of you.

No problem at all, Night. We're stumbling through things the best we can, just like you. The episode has ended up bringing some clarity for all of us, and for me some clarity that there are gaps we haven't figured out yet.

Thanks for your words and understanding, but I assure you there's no problem at all.
--Chris

Stuigi,

I was about to write a post offering free samples of various fragrances (not decanted but in the factory box/bottles). Only part would be the party interested would pay shipping.

Is this OK? Thanks for the update

A problem - It's pretty hard to find decent 50ml bottles with sprayers! I've had to do quite a bit of searching to find something that is attractive and the right size.

I've found that $1 plastic bottles (with sprayers) work fine (3 ounce size). Is there a reason other than an aesthetic one that would precluded using these?

Lotioncrafters has a lovely frosted glass 50ml atomizer that has a great spray mechanism. I have used quite a few and have always been happy with these.

Nice find.

I've been reading the posts about BN no longer allowing the purchases of decants and how important it is to alot of people.

I understand the obvious about the importance of samples so that you can know if you like before you buy the whole bottle. I just have a question. It was brought up that people dont have the availability to fragrances such as others do?

When I read this a few questions popped in my head so I'm putting it out there!

In what way are people limited to fragrances? Do you mean overseas fragrances? Niche fragrances? Or does that refer to fragrances such as armani, or chanel just bc maybe theres not a local lord and taylor etc?

I'm just trying to get a better understanding. Thank you so much! I hope I get alot of feedback. Im juts trying to understand a bit more about what it is people are looking for! =)

Can someone briefly explain to me how splits are organized. If I organize a split I'm assuming I have to pay for the bulk purchase out of pocket and then collect the money? Or can you collect the money then order the bulk purchase? Forgive me for my ignorance.

Also,

There's a company in NYC that sells bottles and atomizers at wholesale prices. Its worth checking out.

http://madinaonline.com/items.asp?Cc=BOTTLES&Bc=

Moderators,

Is it possible to advertise our current/ongoing splits somewhere so that people are *aware* of them? I am trying to fill my Vetiver 46 Split, for example, but other than that I think there are probably 2-3 more splits going on that people may or may not know about.

Alternatively, what are the rules about advertising a split? It should stay out of M/F forums I assume...

And again, is it time for a bottle split section? Easiest solution for all of this...

I bought from Madina, and I was not happy with their packaging (things arrived broken due to poor packing), and their bottles were cheap and not very strong.

On the plus side, they were quick and replaced the broken pieces. But it doesn't matter much if their bottles are crappy.

Stuigi, please consider it! I think it would be immense.

Thanks

Another advantage to a dedicated split section would be the ability to post split requests, which would facilitate quick splits as like minded people gathered/got interested.

For now, please PM me to be added to my scent-split mailing list if you'd like.

What is the reasoning behind "cracking down" on the sale and swap of decants? Is it pressure from fragrance houses who might be losing profit or loss of quality control if you buy decants from an unauthorized source? What kind of money do they make or QC do they have if you buy from a discounter anyway? Can houses take legal action against TPC, if so, for what reason? It's not like you're signing a user agreement before buying fragrances like you do with software. Imagine if you had to mail back a letter to the house before you use a fragrance saying you won't decant it!

I use decants like samples and not as a cost cutting measure. I live in a rural area where it's 2 hours drive to the nearest city. I see (small) decants as a way to provide a service that the houses are unwilling or unable to by not offering samples on their own web sites.

for what it's worth... I just acted like an idiot noob fool and posted a sale containing decants of my busted spray Bulgari Black... Stui caught it right off the bat and shut down my thread. It was my insolence and shortminded train of thought after all, but it is proven that the Mods mean business, and there is no toleration for violation of basenotes rules. Although we all might have misgivings and disagreements for the "whys" of the rules, the fact remains that if we do not abide by them, whether or not it was intentional or not, our threads will be closed and our membership might be in jeopardy.

You and me both! I did the same darn thing without realizing it. Oops.

This may merit it's own sticky for a while, so people can see it more easily. Exciting news indeed though.

Why is sale of decants forbidden? I'm just curious.