Fans of original Guerlain Vetiver must-read

I found very difficult to manage the thick paste of oakmoss abs, but nevertheless I`ll try that. Just for fun, as I got old and new versions of Vetiver Guerlain.

Please, give me a link on French absolute - as I got Bulgarian absolute.

Try Lubin's "Le Vetyver". It smells just like the old Guerlain Vetiver.

No, it doesn't!

Many claim that the old Vetiver smells more "resinous" but to my knowledge it didn't contain oak moss. It's marked as "woody, spicy", not a chypre ...?

A couple of us also came to the conclusion that the reformulation was mostly to compensate for the lowering of the oakmoss content in this thread:

http://community.basenotes.net/showt...ver+comparison

Been meaning to re-do the comparison but never got around to it.

Thanks, sumandre! This is what I have been wondering for some time! Is it possible, in some cases anyway, to come up with a reasonable approximation of a vintage formula by the judicious addition of now-restricted materials such as oakmoss? I wd be very grateful if others wd comment on their own similar experiments. Anyone else tried this? What other frags might be good candidates for this kind of attempt?
Mr. Guerlain, if your nose tells you that it's not oakmoss that's missing from the newer formulas of Vetiver, what do you suppose it is? And does it seem plausible that, if proportions cd be determined accurately, the "missing" element cd be added back? I put "missing" in quotes because I know that for you and for some others, the various versions of of Vetiver stand as more or less separate works.

In my opinion, Scentdirect is one of the better resources for fragrance pyramids.

This is their note structure for Guerlain Vetiver:
Top notes; Bergamot oil, Coriander, Lemon, Mandarin, Neroli,
Middle notes: Carnation, Clary Sage oil, Orris, Sandal, Vetiver,
Base notes: Amber, Civet, Leather, Myrrh, Oakmoss, Oilbanum,

So it could be that some reformulations post-oakmoss regulations are simply the vintage version minus the oakmoss? Puzzling. And makes sense to the industry mind, so the fragrance divisions would not have to spend their time trying to "rework the masterpieces": just take this thing out, and if it smells ok, put on sale again.

I don't mean to suggest that reformulation is as simple as taking restricted materials out. Oakmoss has both an essential place in the fragrance structure and acts as a fixative, right? I'm nearly sure that other elements of the formula are changed to shore up these gaps when something is eliminated. Which would make the proposition of merely adding oakmoss back pretty problematic. I don't mean to suggest that you could restore a fragrance by merely adding oakmoss, only that you could perhaps add the suggestion of a missing dimension. But I'm neither a chemist nor a nose.

In an old thread, Pluran suggests something alike: this reformulation would be just a substitution of oakmoss for treemoss.

Very interesting.

So:

New Vetiver + oakmoss absolute = Vintage Vetiver ?

I thought the new vetiver had enhanced citrus notes and attenuated tobacco...or is that the side effect of altering oakmoss in the composition?

That looks like a very ambitious pyramid! Civet? Leather? Incense? No tobacco?

Okay, if not scentdirect's how about osmoz's pyramid:

top notes: Lemon, Mandarin, Neroli, Coriander
heart notes: Vetiver, Clary Sage, Carnation, Sandal
base notes: Moss, Myrrh, Leather, Civet

(BTW, I smell tobacco as well.)

This is from Guerlain.com :

head notes : orange, bergamot, lemon
heart notes : pepper, nutmeg
base notes : vetiver, tobacco, tonka bean

And, you would have me take the word of the actual producer of the fragrance over some third-party resource?

What is the world coming too!

The pyramids on the Guerlain site are very sparse. Pyramids in general are not accurate and these are definitely innacurate by ommision if you look at a few of the fragrances.
There would definitely have to be reformulation if some oakmoss was removed. Sometimes (it seems to have happened quite frequently) this could be done by substitution with treemoss and sometimes it would be different involving many factors.

It would appear as though the above fragrance pyramid would be for the vintage formulation. (?)

Although on the surface the two formulation bare a clear resemblance to one another and they are 'officially' the same fragrance, that difference in the middle and base is both noticeably subtle and significant - so much so that I consider them to be, in reality, two different fragrances. (And I'd give the vintage at least one more star over the newer version.)

It was interesting to read that Guerlain Vetiver has been classified as a "chypre, leather, woody". When I first started noticing that 'slightly animalic / leathery' aspect to the vintage version, I was surprised as I was not expecting it in a "vetiver". The current GV is marketed as a "Fresh and woody, restrained and authentic,..."

I have wondered, or have I read somewhere (), whether GV has / had oakmoss. So it is fascinating, for sure, that adding oakmoss can restore some of the original composition. It would make sense. Perhaps it needs a touch a leather too???

I'd be v grateful if someone mail me information on where to buy oakmoss absolute.

i agree that something is missing in the current formualtion, or maybe it would be more accurate to say that is has been strongly attenuated (if you try to "overlay" i mean if you spray your shirt today with the current juice and you do it again tomorrow you get something quite close to the original formula)
the 80's formula had notes in its drydown that were more sweet and floral and also notes that reminded something resinous (was it oakmoss ? hard to tell as the ingredients were not listed on the boxes at this time) and a note i would call "tar" (as noted by Sumandre)
but it seems difficult to imagine that a only ingredient is missing; i suppose the reformulation needed to be more profound to keep such a perfect balance
please Guerlain release a vintage edition of your Vetiver !!!

I've been using Guerlain Vetiver for almost 15 years now, so I've been experiencing the different formulas. G. Vetiver has changed a lot since the 90s but I find the latest formula is missing something. It is so different that it's almos unrecognizable from the vintage version. Shame on Guerlain and EU regulations
As I don't find any vintage Vetiver to buy here I was thinking on following sumandre's suggestion. I'll try to mix oakmoss abs to the new Vetiver and see what I get.
I need to buy oakmoss absolute, fortunately I've found some in ebay.
Can you please tell us the exact proportions of oakmoss abs and Vetiver juice?
Is it 5ml to 125ml? J'ai besoin d'une recette precise!
thanks for your post!
Amicalement!

What does the old Guerlain Vetiver bottle look like? I just recently bought one from Dillard's, so I guess I got the newer version then?

You guys just gave me an idea! I can't really say that I like the new Guerlain Vetiver. But I just did some layering with The One (I love vanilla fragrance), and the combination was absolutely amazing. By itself, Guerlain Vetiver to me, is nothing like I had before. It is a very interesting scent, but a little too grassy and spicy for me. But this layering effect was more than pleasing. Wow !!!!

80s - 90s: The best one (that I know of)


End of 90s : Still good


2000: Big change! Less quality


2007 - Current: Why did they have to do this!!???

*The bottle appears empty. The juice has darker green color than previous one.

Thank you, Ret.

To add to the conversation -- or just to the confusion -- I am looking at a Copyright 1999 bottle of Vetiver that I bought at Perfumania a few weeks ago. It looks like Ret's bottle labeled "2000." The ingredients on the box include Evernia Furfuracea.

THANK YOU! I recently bought a vintage bottle of Vetiver and the oakmoss presence was crystal clear. I thought I was crazy since I've never seen moss in the pyramid for this fragrance.

Ok, but is Evernia furfuracea equal to Evernia prunastri? Are both the real oakmoss?

Great thread! The Guerlain Vetiver in the "new" ca 2000 bottle is definitely not the same juice as earlier. I started wearing this (at one time) fantastic juice in the early '90's when a friend gifted me with a bottle of edc he purchased when returning from Montserrat. Heavenly! Then a few years later the edt was issued and was O.K. but not as good as my original edc. the current juice is entirely different, nice, but different. I think it is unfortunate that Guerlain does not let its' customers know to "try before you re-buy" because there have been changes made.

IANAB (I am not a botanist), but I believe that they are different.

One is Oakmoss, one is treemoss. Big difference. Same as wine aged in oak casks, or wine aged in random wooden casks. Each would impart a different quality to the finished product.

Oakmoss, Evernia prunastri, is a lichen and one of the most commonly used fixatives in both women's and men's fragrances. Lichen is a category of fungi that lives in a symbiotic relationship with hard porous surfaces like trees trunks, branches, etc. and rocks. Sometimes lichens can also co-exist with certain forms of algae.

Tree Mosses, Evernia furfuracea and Usnea barbata are also used quite often in perfumery, but more so in men's fragrances. These are found growing on pine trees or spruce trees and are sometimes misleadingly called oakmoss, when in reality they should be called tree moss or fir moss. The reason they're mislabeled or misrepresented is because sometimes they are substituted as cheaper, inferior alternatives to true oakmoss, which grows only on oak trees, particularly the Quercus robur species of oak. Tree mosses tend not to have the complex scent profile of oakmoss but basically work the same way as a fixative to slow down the rate of evaporation of lighter more transient notes. They tend to provide a dry lichenous, mostly one dimensional background note for fragrances.

Unlike the scent profile of tree moss, the scent profile of oakmoss is very complex, and much like ambergris, it can present a wide range of distinctive notes: animalic, leathery, forest floor, lichenous like notes, a slight marine type salinity, but these notes and the way they present themselves has a lot to do with the concentration of oakmoss in a fragrance and its synergy with other elements. For example, while oakmoss does not have a heavy animalic note per se, in absolute form, it has quite a complex scent profile, part of which is a persistent leather-like undertone. Oakmoss can and frequently does deepen and complicate the animalic component of fragrances it is added to by the persistence of this leather-like undertone from the top notes through to the drydown, and, of course, how prominent such an undertone is depends on how much the use of oakmoss absolute is diluted within any particular fragrance and its synergy with other animalic or leathery type notes. An exemplary use of oakmoss to provide a persistent soft leather note throughout the drydown can be seen in Jean Claude Ellena's Hermèssence Poivre Samarcande. This animalic, leather-like undertone is not part of the scent profile of tree moss. Compared to oakmoss, tree moss tends to have a more one dimensional very dry lichenous quality to it, and this is why many people are worried that its facile substitution in the place of oakmoss in fragrance formulas will simplify the complexity of fragrances and finally their aesthetic qualities. For an excellent use of tree moss as a persistent back note that adds a dry chypre dimension to the fragrance and works well to contrast the moister, richer qualities of rose absolute and the syrupy rich sweet qualities of tobacco absolute, try Domenico Caraceni Pour Homme.

Finally, oakmoss has unique fixative qualities in that its presence tends to be extend throughout the entire drydown with its own odor profile adding to the to the whole feel and distinctive nature of the fragrance it occurs in, hence, the category of chypres. However, while oakmoss gives fragrances a distinctive enduring character, in many ways, though, oakmoss is the universal fixative par excellence in that while it asserts its distinctive character throughout the drydown of the fragrance it is present in, unlike other fixatives, to a large extent, it leaves the scent profile of the other constituents in the fragrance relatively unmodified allowing them to shine through and persist longer and more intensely even as it works synergistically with them. In many ways, its own scent profile remains a kind of background note. The only other fixative that has this characteristic is civet.


The vintage formulation of Vetiver mostly definitely has oakmoss in it.

scentemental

I bought myself a little bottle of oakmoss absolute (it's fromYugoslavia) and mixed some with the current vetiver. I'm afraid there is still something missing. I agree that the addition of oakmoss resembles better the vintage formula, but I think there's some deeper and more complex accord missing (maybe some smokiness). I also it lacks some vanilla or tonka bean basenote.
Has anyone also tried this experiment?

Very cool! If you keep working with it please let us know how the results are.

What about this bottle?





I also have a bottle that looks like the one above but has vertical lines in it.

Yes, even I'd like to know if this is vintage formulation or not.

Thanks

And about the strong tobacco note, which was the dominat note ? Did you get it ?

wow! had to go thru it thrice to "get it" thnx sharing such valuable information..

Yesterday I saw Guerlain Vetiver 50 ml bottles (the ones that are in boxes as shown "end of the 90's") for AU$49.00 in a local pharmacy.

Is it a good price? Should I get one? What do you guys think (sorry for hijacking this thread)

Cheers
Alex

I would say it's a good price to get this juice at this price....Of course if you like Guerlain vetiver that is.....

After this thread, getting a bottle of Vintage Vetiver became a a priority. An imperative!

Yes this is a vintage bottle.

In my opinion, and I have vintage Guerlain Vetiver EDT back to the 80'-90's formula up to the 2000 formulation and Vintage EdC - there is less difference between the 80's-90's formula and the end of the 90's than the 2000 formulation. By the way, who put the picture of the empty bottle up for 2007 - is anyone here ignorant enough to believe that there is water or no Vetiver fragrance when you buy a box from 2007?? Almost humorous.

Any way, I concur with scentemental - that there was a small amount of oakmoss in Vintage Guerlain Vetiver (not 5ml per 125ml though - that would be a 2% mix into the composition and, in my opinion...overpowering). I am not a perfumier nor do I play one on TV, but Guerlain's composition did not rely as heavily on oakmoss as other fragrances of its time as a fixative, for example, the classic Aromatic Fougeres of the 70's & 80's that were castrated by IFRA by the oakmoss ban.

Not to be insulting, but this is simply ridiculous:
In my opinion, Scentdirect is one of the better resources for fragrance pyramids.

This is their note structure for Guerlain Vetiver:
Top notes; Bergamot oil, Coriander, Lemon, Mandarin, Neroli,
Middle notes: Carnation, Clary Sage oil, Orris, Sandal, Vetiver,
Base notes: Amber, Civet, Leather, Myrrh, Oakmoss, Oilbanum,

Honestly, not worth a comment (maybe a laugh) as it is so far from what is in the actual composition (stop reading and please use your nose). Guerlain's Vetiver (in EDT form) has always been about three key ingredients - Bergamot, Vetiver and Tobacco. Yes, Lemon is in the top of the 2000 formulation to brighten the citrus, while a dusting of light coriander (less then Givenchy's Vetyver in Vintage form) is there - but, the major spices that transition to the heart of vetiver are nutmeg and pepper (not heavy or coarse-ground, but respectful and enough to add depth and sparkle). The base had a light touch of oakmoss with the core note of tobacco in older vintage and new, and everyone here (except Guerlain) seems to forget that Tonka Bean (coumarin) was and is essential in the base - which it always has been.

Oakmoss was light added touch that I get from the older juice. My Vintage Eau de Cologne from the 70's (in the zig-zag black & white box) is a perfect example of Guerlain's Vetiver in its truest form. A beautiful and eloquent bergamot oil on top that does not over power, a heart of gorgeous, deep and essential vetiver (a touch rooty, a touch smoky and as close to the purity of the root one will find in any bottle ever found with a Guerlain label) and a base that, of course, has no tobacco. Therein lies the key. I pick-up from the EdC a trace of light oakmoss - only if I tell myself it's there. From experience, I find that it is the essential oil of vetiver that has matured in the bottle and the shades of green that develop upon pH blending with the skin, etc. Vetiver oil changes over the years and can add dimensions unto itself - it matures and improves with age, if stored properly. Also, the older the root, the deeper and more intense the oil will be. We all know that the oldest vetiver roots in the world are no longer in existence. That has all be pulled from the earth and squeezed into a bottle of something (perhaps a Guerlain) years and years ago. It takes approximately 200 pounds of vetiver root to get 1 liquid pound of vetiver essential oil (and that is before refinement).

Now - if you perspire, you release salt from your body. Vetiver EdC shows beautifully year-round, but was (and still is) the quintessential warm weather scent on a global scale (various bottlings, not just Guerlain's). People talk about a saline quality or salty-vibe in vetiver (without going into the territory of Annick Goutal's bottle that washed ashore on a wave onto a beach - wonderful, but a creation and part of the composition with iodine, etc.) What most people don't probably think about is that fragrance absorbs into our skin and breathes back to our noses and to those around us. A humid climate will naturally create a vetiver fragrance to have a light saline quality when the wearer perspires. Some people sweat more than others - and have naturally oilier skin. So much of this is subjective to the wearer. I mention this because if someone wore vetiver and picked up certain "qualities" or aspects, that may be how it wears on them at that time. Wear it in the cool winter and results may be different. Bathing is key too - clean skin versus dirty/oily skin will have a significant effect on what you smell. In some cultures, wearing essential oils is the substitute of bathing (which is only done occassionally). There is NO incense in Guerlain Vetiver EDT (not a single formulation), but if your culture burns a lot of incense and your skin and clothing absorb it, you will find the note blended in with the fragrance. The leather note - not to be rude - but, seriously...take off your leather jacket before applying Guerlain Vetiver all over it. Or, stop smelling how it absorbed into your couch a week after you spilled the splash bottle on your leather sofa. That note is absolutely not there - leather in Guerlain Vetiver???? Please.

I believe the contention that oakmoss was a key part of Guerlain's Vetiver is over-stated, but not to be overlooked. Personally, I believe it may have been used very, very lightly (if at all) in Vintage EdC and (IMHO) a very light amount was added to Vintage EDT. It made what was there better, deeper, richer - but you smell depth of the vetiver accord in the base (and bottle maturation of the vetiver blending the touch of oakmoss)...not oakmoss unto itself. The tobacco and tonka bean were the true essence of the base that allowed the KEY ingredient (vetiver itself) to have more warmth, smokiness, and a deft touch of taste. For those who do not know this, Tonka Bean oil was extracted from the seed to flavor tobacco (coincidence? No.) - that was coumarin's primary purpose. The two go hand-in-hand.

A final comment. The 2000 formulation was, in my opinion, a fantastic bottle of vetiver that Guerlain offered the new millenium. While it made citrus a lot brighter, this was to appease the buyers of fresher vetivers (more office-friendly), while the heart remained the same and the base of nice tobacco and tonka bean carry the slightly lighter (but still wonderfully sharp and vibrant green) vetiver accord for very good duration. It is a bit loud upon application (which I do not mind), but I think it is excellent after it tones down (10-15 minutes on skin, 20-30 minutes on fabric).

Vintage Vetiver EDT is superior - agreed. Vintage Vetiver Eau de Cologne is the essence of all bottlings and the most pure (and my favorite), but the 2000 formulation gave us something very solid that lasted a full decade - very good, indeed. I personally feel that it did not overly-modernize a classic and the ribbed bottling is fantastic! It is more wearable year-round than Vintage as well...something Guerlain intended, as well as more "professional" - a scent for the office of the new millenium. The flankers also proved that Guerlain was ready to make a move into a larger space of compositions around their flagship. Ironically, on the fantastic Vetiver Extreme survived that into the next bottling (which we have today) - and unfortunately too, as both the Sport and Eau Glacee/Frozen bottlings were very good unto themselves. Unique and different enough for a vetiver lover to admire the individual qualities of. Both, also ironically, offered a "cleaner" and more lifted versions of the scent and both removed tobacco from the base notes. Vetiver Extreme (again, wonderful bottle by Guerlain) offers a very different and much more complex composition that adds a lot of wood (cedar), herbs and removes tobacco as well. Is tobacco an offender in the "smoke-free" world? To some, yes. It was the only ingredient keeping consumers away from Guerlain's standard EDT bottling. People might complain for a short period of the bright citrus on top (vibrant and radiant, indeed) - but if you do not like tobacco, Guerlain's Vetiver will fall off your list rather quickly.

Guerlain continues today with the new formula that I have held off on purchasing, but will soon out of sheer curiosity. Reviews are everywhere - but a lot of comments seem to say that Guerlain is trying to repackage the classic scent into the Habit Rouge bottle from the late 90's to create a sense of yesteryear. Is it superior to anything that has been bottled up to now, including the excellent 2000 juice? That is subjective to the wearer...I will decide for myself.

Cheers,

ericrico

Agree with you.

By the time I posted that image, I couln'd find a picture showing the box and the bottle filled with juice that were needed to identify reformulations. I added a footnote making note of that which I'm afraid you didn't read. Nobody here was trying to fool anyone or to treat others as ignorants.

Anyway, has anyone here smelled the "new" 2011 Vetiver reformulation?. Has it the vintage feel?