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Does Strength/Longetivity Have to do with Expense?

post #1 of 33
1/25/09 at 1:48pm
Thread Starter 
A scent that I can't smell an hour after I sprayed it makes me think of that scent negatively, even if it's a great smell, and makes me think less of the manufacturer. It makes me think that the house has deliberately "watered down" their own scent just to take my hard-earned bucks.

So I was wondering...does it cost money for a house to release a stronger scent?

I think of the cheapos in the past...Quorom, Joop!, Drakkar Noir, Grey Flannel, and others...love 'em or hate 'em, you couldn't say they didn't last. L'Artisan, in comparison, makes scentsn that cost much more, but I've yet to find one that lasts. I don't mean to simple them out; the lack of staying power is unique to many other fragrances and houses as well.

I understand that there's a economic difference between synthetic chemicals imitating a note as opposed to using the note itself. Is that why some last and some don't? Why are some cheaper frags more powerful than high-end artisans? Is it cheaper to make artificial scents than natural ones, and do you feel "cheated" when you buy something that has the staying power of dishwater? Any examples? And is it a difference between how the notes are made, or do you think the company's trying to get maximum dollars out of their product? ("Hmmm...how to we get more money from Product X..I know, we'll water it down! That way, they're have to buy more of it!") The downside, of course, is that if the product smells like s**t anyway, few will be back to re-purchase it. But that seems little to do with longetivity.
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post #2 of 33
1/25/09 at 4:27pm
1. You can't always make a frag "stronger" or last longer without changing the character. Just check out some of the popular frags that are release in various strengths; they almost always smell different depending on the strength.
2. I find nothing wrong with synthetic chemicals; virtually all fragrance houses use them extensively.
3. Yes, synthetic chemicals are most often cheaper than natural, but then again, perfumes cost far less to make than they do to package or market. Without synthetics, you would have a problem making any sandalwood or oud based frags since the raw materials are in short supply and very expensive. How many dollars of raw material do you think is used to make the typical $100 bottle of perfume ( most often I would guess it is certainly less than $10 and in most cases less than $5).
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post #3 of 33
1/25/09 at 4:32pm
I don't know what the cost differential is to formulate a frag that has more longevity, but I do know I won't buy a scent that only lasts 45 minutes no matter how good it smells.

It pays to do 2 things; Sample purchases & research reviews/threads.
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post #4 of 33
1/25/09 at 4:46pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonB View Post

1. You can't always make a frag "stronger" or last longer without changing the character. Just check out some of the popular frags that are release in various strengths; they almost always smell different depending on the strength.
2. I find nothing wrong with synthetic chemicals; virtually all fragrance houses use them extensively.
3. Yes, synthetic chemicals are most often cheaper than natural, but then again, perfumes cost far less to make than they do to package or market. Without synthetics, you would have a problem making any sandalwood or oud based frags since the raw materials are in short supply and very expensive. How many dollars of raw material do you think is used to make the typical $100 bottle of perfume ( most often I would guess it is certainly less than $10 and in most cases less than $5).

So if we agree that synthetics are both abundant and cheaper than natural essences, how come so many of the frags that they go into are so weak?

I'm kidding...I certainly agree that the marketing and packaging are big factors in making a cologne, but again, it seems not to give houses an excuse for making watery perfumes.
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post #5 of 33
1/25/09 at 4:57pm
To the orig. poster: The perception of "smell lasting" is relative.

For example, reading the nowsmellthis blog on a bottle I own (Prada IdI) which has a "quiet perfume" reputation, I get two camps: People who claim they can't smell it after half an hour, and people like me who can still smell it on myself at 5 pm (this in a 25 deg. C office).

Sometimes, it has nothing to do with the chem itself - you could be anosmic/hyposmic to some of its main constituents, or your skin just eats it up, or it's just cold out.

If you like strong long lasting scent there's nothing wrong with that - by any means choose those that complement your style. But to say that there's definitely something wrong with scents that you don't find lasting - well how do you know it's not intentionally designed to be like that?
=======
Being synthetic also has nothing to do with quality. One of my absolute fave is Beyond Paradise which is composed of 400+ different synthetic compounds. Also, one of the best Rose soliflore reproduction perfumes I've ever smelled is Perfumer's Workshop Tea Rose. It's cheap, quite strong, and as everyone can guess - must be full of synthetics. Many of the niche girls here hate/will probably hate it. But I challenge, "If you can show me an all-natural rose soliflore that smells like a freshly cut rose bouquet - I'll drink the whole 120ml bottle of the PWTR" :P
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post #6 of 33
1/25/09 at 5:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Butthead53 View Post

So if we agree that synthetics are both abundant and cheaper than natural essences, how come so many of the frags that they go into are so weak?

A lot of it has to do with what the perfumer is going for when making a perfume; some perfumes are designed to be subtle and to play at the edges of our consciousness (L'anitmatiere) or to be light and ethereal (TDC Bois d'Iris). Some are designed to appeal to people that don't like the sometimes overbearing nature of things like Grey Flannel, Kouros and other "power fragrances". Another big factor is one's nose. Some frags that people have complained as being weak and fleeting (Annick Goutal Duel) on me are rather long lasting and medium in "strength'.
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post #7 of 33
1/25/09 at 6:35pm
Thread Starter 
I hear what the two prior posters are saying. Strength is relative, and some houses create a scent that's meant to be "light," but why they WOULD create a short-lasting scent remains a mystery to me...and no, I don't expect every scent to be a Joop! PH, but something in the middle, at least, would seem far more preferable to most consumers' tastes and desires...I mean, would you deliberately buy a fragrance that you knew would disappear on your skin almost immediately? Maybe some would, but definitely not me.
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post #8 of 33
1/25/09 at 6:56pm
As a general matter (not true in every case), I'd say that the longevity is better in more expensive/niche fragrances only because they have a better budget for the oil - higher concentrations and more expensive components. Of course there are exceptions to this - Polo, Fahrenheit, etc. come to mind. Of course these are designed to be strong and long-lasting.

As people mention above, some fragrances are designed to be light - but that doesn't always have to mean poor longevity. For example, I recently sampled Lostmarc'h Lann-Ael. It was incredibly light on the skin - you had to have your nose on your skin to detect it (very pretty, btw), but it lasted 12+ hours in this ethereal state.

An issue connected with longevity that also characterizes the difference between hi/low cost fragrances is the strength and perceptibility of basenotes. Take your average contemporary designer fragrance, and by the time the base appears it's barely perceptible. I always think it's funny when a designer fragrance has a bunch of published basenotes, but you'll never actually smell any of them. Contrast that with something by Parfumerie Generale, Serge Lutens, Montale, etc. and you can actually distinguish and enjoy the basenotes as part of the fragrance experience. I think this largely comes down to concentration of oil and the fact that it's in higher concentration in more expensive fragrances.

Again, this is not an all-encompassing rule, just what I've experienced. My sub $20 Habit Rouge SOTD has a wonderfully perceptible, long-lasting base.
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post #9 of 33
1/25/09 at 7:12pm
Short answer: It is not about the cost of raw materials.

It has to do with trends (Gimme the most clean, fresh, safest, nonobtrusive fragrance ever), perfume chemistry (some citrus oils do not last no matter the quality), other costs (now we have to pay the perfumer to make something stronger), etc.
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post #10 of 33
1/25/09 at 7:56pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by irish View Post

Short answer: It is not about the cost of raw materials.

It has to do with trends (Gimme the most clean, fresh, safest, nonobtrusive fragrance ever), perfume chemistry (some citrus oils do not last no matter the quality), other costs (now we have to pay the perfumer to make something stronger), etc.

Yeah, I suspected that as well. I'll forever be of the "old-school" variety when people weren't afraid to wear strong, pronounced scents.

I blame Cool Water.
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post #11 of 33
1/25/09 at 8:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Butthead53 View Post

Ibut why they WOULD create a short-lasting scent remains a mystery to me...

Short lived fragrances are produced and designed because some people don't want to smell the same fragrance all day. Some just want a burst of something fresh and clean when they leave the house in the morning and don't care if it lasts more than an hour or three. Some styles are just plain short lived because of the ingredients used, a citrusy frag will always be shorter lived compared to something loaded with labdanum or musk.
Also, some frags might have a short life span on you but might last others quite a long while.
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post #12 of 33
1/25/09 at 8:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Butthead53 View Post

Yeah, I suspected that as well. I'll forever be of the "old-school" variety when people weren't afraid to wear strong, pronounced scents.

I blame Cool Water.

But how boring would it be if 90% of all perfumes are of middling strength and tenacity. To use the analogy of bomber loadouts, they do not always carry the heaviest bombs there is - they carry the right balance of right bomb for the right occasion.

If I want to project sillage all day, I'd choose a loadout with my stronger ones. If I have a different event to go to in the evening, I choose a lighter loadout in the morning so I can "reload" with a different olfactory ammo in the evening.

CW to me is a tenacious scrubber. 1 spray in the morning and I can still smell it at night. I had to take off all my clothes and shower to completely wipe all traces of it off me. :P
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post #13 of 33
1/25/09 at 8:17pm
I paid $100 for a steak at a fancy restaurant. I hope it lasts forever in my bowels because it costs so much!
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post #14 of 33
1/25/09 at 8:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirSlarty View Post

I paid $100 for a steak at a fancy restaurant. I hope it lasts forever in my bowels because it costs so much!

Let us know how that works out for you.

If I am buying a FB of juice, it won't be one that has a life span of 1 hour max on my skin. I want longevity from the fragrance. I have yet to run into a frag that was good enough to buy because I loved the scent AND lasted too long. If my agenda changes during the course of the fragrance's life, I take a shower and that is pretty much that.
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post #15 of 33
1/25/09 at 11:14pm
Yes it does.

Generally speaking, the more expensive the scent, the weaker and shorter lasting it is. This is because as scents get more expensive you hit the realm of niche scents, where your experience with L'Artisan is not atypical, although I get a few more hours out of them than you do.

On my skin, the cheaper designer scents usually last much longer than more expensive niche scents, unless the designer ones are citrus/Eau type ones like Eau Sauvage and YSL PH, which have poor lasting power.

There are exceptions in the niche world on my skin - the Serge Lutens ones tend to have good longevity and strength, many of the MPG ones have good longevity but not much projection strength, Lorenzo Villoresi ones tend to have a bit of longevity too, and a few of the Creeds have some longevity (while some like Neroli Sauvage rank worse than Eau Sauvage). The best endurance I've found in a niche is Goutal's Sables - it lasts for ages, but hardly projects - so that few others will smell it. But the rest of the Goutals don't have much longevity on me, neither do Etro, SMN, Miller Harris, ADP and numerous others I've tested.

Some people consider Caron to be niche, and they smell that way to me, and that makes them the cheapest niche scents around - and they do have lasting power.

I own heaps of niche scents, but when I want lasting power and strength, I pick up the designer stuff.

Renato
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post #16 of 33
1/26/09 at 1:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renato View Post

Yes it does.

This is odd , I was always lead to believe that Parfum or Extrait was the strongest highest concentration , also obviously the more expensive and would have the most longevity . My Jicky parfum - I know its not niche lasts 5 or 6 hours absolute tops
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post #17 of 33
1/26/09 at 1:41am
Jicky just doesn't last that long in any concentration - it's just one of those Jicky things. The EdT only lasts a couple hours.

Perhaps in Australia, everything is reversed (like the direction the water spins in the toilet), therefore explaining why Renato's experience is diametrically opposed to that of nearly every other human being on the planet who collects both designer and niche stuff. I look forward to a bogus mathematical formula to explain this phenomena. I'll bet that kangaroos are more attracted to niche fragrances, and thus when you're running away from them as they chase you, you sweat more, causing the fragrance to dissipate. Makes perfect sense.

If quality of ingredients, specifically amount of perfume oil, plays no part in longevity, then critics wouldn't use the phrase 'running out of budget' when describing a fragrance with poor longevity and/or poor execution in the mid/base notes.

My experience isn't as extensive as many people's here, but still I've done a significant amount of sampling over the last year. While sampling a few hundred niche and designer fragrances, on average the niche fragrances last much longer on my skin and have more distinct notes further into development than designer fragrances. Not all - there are designer frags like Polo, A*Men, Jaipur, Egoiste, and more that last a plenty long time. This isn't always a cost issue either. I have fragrances like Habit Rouge and Eau des Baux that are inexpensive and last forever.

My PGs on average last 12-18 hours, SLs last 8-12 hours, Montales 8-10 hours, and Profumums last 24+ hours easily. Why would Profumums and PGs last so long and my new Prada Infusion d'Homme and Polo Modern Reserve only last 5-6 hours? Concentration and quality. Some houses design fragrances to last, others are designed to smell good on a paper strip so people buy them.

Again, there are exceptions to these generalities, and of course citrus notes don't last as long regardless of who makes them. Regardless, as a general matter longevity is largely a function of expense, which is largely a reflection of quality.
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post #18 of 33
1/26/09 at 2:42am
Actually, most Australian capital cities (where the male Aussie BNers live) - they're not that different to California. Sydney reminds me of Los Angeles, Melbourne of San Francisco in terms of both weather and cultural vibe. Not helped by the coincidence that both Melbourne and San Fran have trams....

I believe that in lower humidity/hot weather like I'm experiencing at the moment, frag oils evaporate so much quicker than say SE Texas now.
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post #19 of 33
1/26/09 at 7:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pour_Monsieur View Post

This is odd , I was always lead to believe that Parfum or Extrait was the strongest highest concentration , also obviously the more expensive and would have the most longevity . My Jicky parfum - I know its not niche lasts 5 or 6 hours absolute tops

There is nothing odd in my statement. The original poster posted a question on the Male Fragrance Discussion board citing male scents sold in EDT strength. My response was in the context of his question.

Your response relates to a female scent sold at parfum strength (which is usually in small volumes relative to EDT and EDP volumes) - something which is well above EDT and EDP strength - which does not strike me as particularly relavent to the original poster's question, as it is not comparing similar categories of scents.
Renato
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post #20 of 33
1/26/09 at 8:18am
Alright love , calm down , I was only making a statement not slighting anything you had said . Jesus some of you people on here are so pissy
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post #21 of 33
1/26/09 at 8:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbBD View Post

Jicky just doesn't last that long in any concentration - it's just one of those Jicky things. The EdT only lasts a couple hours.

Perhaps in Australia, everything is reversed (like the direction the water spins in the toilet), therefore explaining why Renato's experience is diametrically opposed to that of nearly every other human being on the planet who collects both designer and niche stuff. I look forward to a bogus mathematical formula to explain this phenomena. I'll bet that kangaroos are more attracted to niche fragrances, and thus when you're running away from them as they chase you, you sweat more, causing the fragrance to dissipate. Makes perfect sense.

If quality of ingredients, specifically amount of perfume oil, plays no part in longevity, then critics wouldn't use the phrase 'running out of budget' when describing a fragrance with poor longevity and/or poor execution in the mid/base notes.

My experience isn't as extensive as many people's here, but still I've done a significant amount of sampling over the last year. While sampling a few hundred niche and designer fragrances, on average the niche fragrances last much longer on my skin and have more distinct notes further into development than designer fragrances. Not all - there are designer frags like Polo, A*Men, Jaipur, Egoiste, and more that last a plenty long time. This isn't always a cost issue either. I have fragrances like Habit Rouge and Eau des Baux that are inexpensive and last forever.

My PGs on average last 12-18 hours, SLs last 8-12 hours, Montales 8-10 hours, and Profumums last 24+ hours easily. Why would Profumums and PGs last so long and my new Prada Infusion d'Homme and Polo Modern Reserve only last 5-6 hours? Concentration and quality. Some houses design fragrances to last, others are designed to smell good on a paper strip so people buy them.

Again, there are exceptions to these generalities, and of course citrus notes don't last as long regardless of who makes them. Regardless, as a general matter longevity is largely a function of expense, which is largely a reflection of quality.

You are dead right - your experience isn't as extensive as many people's here.

I've listed a large number of niche scent brands which in general underperform designer scents on me, and extrapolated my general conclusion from them.

You've listed a much smaller number of niche brands which you say do perform - and surprise, surprise - one of them is one which I also said performs on me, and I didn't addressed your other three. So from your limited sample, you extrapolate and form the exact opposite conclusion to mine. And I notice that your sample is selective - you haven't addressed other niche brands you own (L'Artisan, Nikolai, SMN, Creed) in forming your general conclusion.

The original poster asked a general question, and your response comes from a very limited sample base - hence why it is erroneous, in my opinion - unless he sticks solely to your cited scents.

Oh - and as your source of physics and world knowledge about the effect of coriolis forces on flushing toilet appears to be The Simpsons, I suggest you do a quick check of the internet where you will find countless articles explaining that it is a nonsense, that the force only applies to very large volumes, and that the coriolis force is swamped by other factors in toilets.
Renato
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post #22 of 33
1/26/09 at 11:54am
Not neccessarily. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Sorry, I don't have more clever answer. The majority of L'Artisan scents I know have rather bad strengt/longevity, whilest they are expensive. The inexpensive The Dreamer has an unbelievable longevity.
Anyhow, the best longevity -although only on paper- I've had is Clive Christian 1872 Men. I sprayed it sparely on wednesday, five and a half days ago, it's in my pocket barely open, and I can clearly smell it as I'm sitting here. Price is rather high, that's true.
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post #23 of 33
1/26/09 at 1:14pm
Do you think longevity has any link to the way fragrances are applied???
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post #24 of 33
1/26/09 at 2:06pm
I think that a large movement happened in the fragrance industry with men's scents around 1992. A need was made to make the scents lighter and I believe for marketing purposes. Young men were starting to be a new targeted market sector for the industry to tap into.

Women (not all) will buy a scent and wear it for years for a little spritz last hours for a majority of women's scent are based on florals - which are long lasting.

Men's scents turned lighter and require now to be reapplied and it seems the industry has trained men now to reapply fragrance boosting therefore the need to buy more bottles. Notice that for example:

A 1.7 spray for Calvin Klein Euphoria for women retails for $58.00 while the men's version at 1.7 retails for $48.00
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post #25 of 33
1/26/09 at 2:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pour_Monsieur View Post

This is odd , I was always lead to believe that Parfum or Extrait was the strongest highest concentration , also obviously the more expensive and would have the most longevity .

Interesting, I would think most parfum extraits have more longevity. But my Lalique le Faune EDP does not last. Longevity is poor, althought the scent itself does feel "thick". The EDT lasts OK if applied generously ( 5 or 6 sprays as opposed to my prefered 3 sprays). I guess it depends on which fragrances.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbBD View Post


Perhaps in Australia, everything is reversed (like the direction the water spins in the toilet), therefore explaining why Renato's experience is diametrically opposed to that of nearly every other human being on the planet who collects both designer and niche stuff.

This likely explains why musicians Silver Chair became so famous in the 1990s and no one realized that they were a ripoff of Nirvana and many other American grunge/alternative rock bands:toppie:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renato View Post


Oh - and as your source of physics and world knowledge about the effect of coriolis forces on flushing toilet appears to be The Simpsons

So are you saying that the toilets in Austrailia don't flush the opposite way ? I'll confess to using The Simpsons to make many assumptions about things.
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post #26 of 33
1/26/09 at 2:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pour_Monsieur View Post

Alright love , calm down , I was only making a statement not slighting anything you had said . Jesus some of you people on here are so pissy

I can understand why you feel that way. Some people can't handled criticism that they've posted a pet irrelevancy.
Renato
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post #27 of 33
1/26/09 at 2:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Surfacing View Post

So are you saying that the toilets in Austrailia don't flush the opposite way ? I'll confess to using The Simpsons to make many assumptions about things.

My toilet flushes straight down. The toilet in the house we stay at in Italy flushes straight down.

I have never seen a toilet that swirls around in any direction when flushing - unless it's blocked.

The Simpson's usually research their programs very well, and then deviate somewhat in the application of that accurate background - e.g. when Principal Skinner was using his telescope, the terminology he was using would have been totally familiar to any amateur astronomer, as was Bart's subsequent action when he discovered the comet. But the comet itself subsequently didn't behave like any known comet.
Renato
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post #28 of 33
1/26/09 at 2:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandy View Post

Not neccessarily. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Sorry, I don't have more clever answer. The majority of L'Artisan scents I know have rather bad strengt/longevity, whilest they are expensive. The inexpensive The Dreamer has an unbelievable longevity.
Anyhow, the best longevity -although only on paper- I've had is Clive Christian 1872 Men. I sprayed it sparely on wednesday, five and a half days ago, it's in my pocket barely open, and I can clearly smell it as I'm sitting here. Price is rather high, that's true.

Clive Christian 1872 lasted about a day and a half on my arm, which was very, very good for a scent that wasn't particularly heavy. If you get the opportunity, try race it off on your arms against Joop Homme and Goutal's Sables.
Renato
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post #29 of 33
1/26/09 at 3:00pm
There are two factors affecting strength:

1) The aroma molecules in question evoke a superior olfactory response
2) There is a high concentration of a certain aroma molecule in a fragrance

as for longevity:

3) There is a high concentration of a aroma molecule and/or
4) It evaporates slowly from the sprayed fragrance on your skin/clothes/whatever.

Now. There is absolutely no correlation between 'cheap to synthesize' or 'cheap to naturally extract' aromachemicals and strength/longevity. If IFF/Giuvadan/Symrise etc. develop a certain synthetic aromachemical I'm sure longevity might be a property they're looking for, but for sure it's not the most important property. It's not the drive to develop a certain aromachemical. Because it's more important how it smells, what it adds to the perfumer's palette is more important.

So the answers are:

a) Yes. A higher concentration of a certain aromachemical makes the cost for a unit fragrance more expensive so strength/longevity is correlated with expenses

b) No. Carefully, expensively engineered synthetic molecules or painfully and expensively extracted aromachemicals do not necessarily have the intrinsic property of higher perceived strength in them. A 50-step synthesized aromachemical might have worse strength/longevity properties than a simple 10-step synthesized aromachemical, and vice versa.
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post #30 of 33
1/26/09 at 5:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GourmandHomme View Post

Sydney reminds me of Los Angeles

Sydney is easier to drive around than LA (and has better beaches).
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post #31 of 33
1/26/09 at 5:40pm
I believe that all perfumes are designed "on spec" for a price point - so if the spec does not specifically say, "Lasts all day on even dry skin chemistry" then the perfumer is not obliged to do that, do they?

Maybe the brief says, "Fleeting smell of the night in a Grasse valley." I don't know about you but that one I wouldn't expect to last more than 3-4 hours max even in EDP strength.

So for people who think a lot of modern perfumes do not last as long as they'd like - it's very simple. Vote with your dollar and do not buy short-lasting perfumes then - at whatever price point. Either that or start your own niche company called "The Tenacious Perfume Company" and brew up your own EDPs at 25% perfume oil concentration.
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post #32 of 33
1/27/09 at 3:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by GourmandHomme View Post


So for people who think a lot of modern perfumes do not last as long as they'd like - it's very simple. Vote with your dollar and do not buy short-lasting perfumes then - at whatever price point.

Very, very true - if you can get hold of it to try it, that is.

But as you know, we have a voracious bunch of blind buyers around here - especially when they see something on sale on the net.
Renato
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post #33 of 33
1/27/09 at 11:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renato View Post

Clive Christian 1872 lasted about a day and a half on my arm, which was very, very good for a scent that wasn't particularly heavy. If you get the opportunity, try race it off on your arms against Joop Homme and Goutal's Sables.
Renato

Thank you for your advice. Today I received my 1872 samples (for men and women) and I'm stunned. What a nice scent the one for men is... it has a lingering nature, now you feel, now you don't. It may well be one's signature scent - maybe it will be mine. Very expensive, but as far as I can see from today's experience, very little is enough. And if I continue buying one-two bottles a year, then I can afford even that one.
I had once Joop Homme and I can very well remember its having a decent longevity, but the scent itself is nowhere near. Still I haven't had the opportunity to try Goutal, I will try my best.
But in the last 5 weeks I had the privilage to try five Amouages, four Nasomattos, lots of L'Artisans, all of Clive Christians, several Miller Harris' - a really great period, thank you basenotes
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