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Oakmoss, My kingdom for Oakmoss.

post #1 of 31
11/28/09 at 12:50pm
Thread Starter 
Is there still some fragrances out there that contain real deal ingredients in their original proportions? Pour homme or pour femme? Give me a list please. I want to live on the edge!
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post #2 of 31
11/28/09 at 3:12pm
Of all the oakmoss absolutes I've smelled, and all the oakmoss drydowns I've smelled, the one that smelled closest to a natural Oakmoss soliflore drydown, was the 1993 formulation of "Jacques Fath Green Water". A very interesting and high quality green scent that i describe in detail in one of the "green" thread titles. It's somewhat of an earthier selection verte.
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post #3 of 31
11/28/09 at 3:14pm
Tesla, you may want to investigate AbdesSalaam Attar Profumo Oak Moss--it is all natural, so certainly will contain the real thing.

There are still quite a few commercial fragrances that contain oakmoss--they just restrict the quantity. The most oakmoss-heavy contemporary scent I have is Miller Harris Cuir d'Oranger. Other frags that have it in smaller quantities include Chanel No.19 and Hermes Eau d'Orange Verte.
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post #4 of 31
11/28/09 at 3:28pm
C&S's Oxford and Cambridge has a lot of real oakmoss in the drydown. It blends beautifully with the lavender.
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post #5 of 31
11/28/09 at 4:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SculptureOfSoul View Post

C&S's Oxford and Cambridge has a lot of real oakmoss in the drydown. It blends beautifully with the lavender.

I notice both of my recently purchased bottles of No. 88 and Frankincense and Myrrh have oakmoss extract listed in the ingredients. Will these be replaced soon or is a little bit of oakmoss ok with the new rules?
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post #6 of 31
11/28/09 at 6:31pm
^ it's not completely prohibited, just restricted.

I retested Armani's Oranger (whatever the next word is) and, now that Chanel Pour Monsieur has been tampered with, a good alternative. Not sure if there's much oakmoss in there, but they've given a good impression that there is.
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post #7 of 31
11/28/09 at 8:58pm
I just ordered some Mousse de Chene by L'Aromarine, and I've got great hopes for it. I'll let you know.
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post #8 of 31
11/29/09 at 5:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sofresh View Post

^ it's not completely prohibited, just restricted.

You´re right, it´s not prohibited, but restricted - limited up to 0,1% in the finished product. Vintage Mitsouko is told to have about 5%!!
So, there is no kingdom for oakmoss and treemoss left, just a little, very little county!

http://www.ifraorg.org/Home/Code,+St...s/page.aspx/56
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post #9 of 31
11/29/09 at 6:37am
I've asked this question before on the Make Yer Own threads, but I'm not sure I've ever gotten a completely straight answer. What would happen if you just bought by-God oakmoss absolute and added it to the modern version of Mitouko, for instance? Wd you end up with something closer to the original or would you unbalance the frag in nasty ways?
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post #10 of 31
11/29/09 at 6:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strollyourlobster View Post

I've asked this question before on the Make Yer Own threads, but I'm not sure I've ever gotten a completely straight answer. What would happen if you just bought by-God oakmoss absolute and added it to the modern version of Mitouko, for instance? Wd you end up with something closer to the original or would you unbalance the frag in nasty ways?

Not if you decant several equal amounts of your target frag & mixed with the oakmoss in varying percentages. This will give the opportunity to test each 'concentration' to render the one you like best. Word of advice - let your mix(es) sit for at least a week, with intermittent shakes so the oakmoss can integrate. It works.
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post #11 of 31
11/29/09 at 7:05am
Thanks, SoGent! Have you tried this? Good results?
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post #12 of 31
11/29/09 at 7:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoGent View Post

Not if you decant several equal amounts of your target frag & mixed with the oakmoss in varying percentages. This will give the opportunity to test each 'concentration' to render the one you like best. Word of advice - let your mix(es) sit for at least a week, with intermittent shakes so the oakmoss can integrate. It works.

Hmmm- excellent food for thought. Line up for 'homemade Mitsouko - original and best ! Like moonlighting !
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post #13 of 31
11/29/09 at 8:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strollyourlobster View Post

Thanks, SoGent! Have you tried this? Good results?

Yes I have . . . . bumping the oakmoss in Guerlain's reformulated Vetyver
adding beaver musk to several leather frag's . . . . additional 'woodiness' to cadjmere etc

It's just enhancing a particular note I may enjoy in a product when I feel it could use a boost.

The trick is integration time and starting small with the addtions working UP 'cause you certainly can't subtract from a mix.
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post #14 of 31
11/29/09 at 8:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mysticknot View Post

Hmmm- excellent food for thought. Line up for 'homemade Mitsouko - original and best ! Like moonlighting !

Moonlighting for the moonlight as it were.
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post #15 of 31
11/29/09 at 9:42am
Interesting and excellent idea. Imagine - a souped up Mitsouko! Your personal reformulation of a classic, eh? Time to invest in that chemistry set too, huh?
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post #16 of 31
11/29/09 at 11:39am
This is a very exciting idea to me. And it seems so natural. Oakmoss is, after all, readily available and quite cheap.
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post #17 of 31
12/1/09 at 4:31am
Be warned that oakmoss EO is VERY concentrated stuff. I have good quality oil, sourced out of Yugoslavia, Evernia Prunastri . I took a pin and put two tiny micro-dots in a simmering potpourri of water, about 3 tbsp. Well, that filled the room with a deep woody mossy smell. For my nose, it got overwhelmingly rich after a while (and I like oakmoss). So my point is that you might have to do a tincture of a tincture to get the level down to what you'd have in a bottle.
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post #18 of 31
12/1/09 at 6:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sables View Post

You´re right, it´s not prohibited, but restricted - limited up to 0,1% in the finished product. Vintage Mitsouko is told to have about 5%!!
So, there is no kingdom for oakmoss and treemoss left, just a little, very little county!

http://www.ifraorg.org/Home/Code,+St...s/page.aspx/56

Is that 5% of the total composition of the perfume oils or 5% in the diluted ready-to-wear fragrance?
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post #19 of 31
12/1/09 at 7:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diamondflame View Post

Interesting and excellent idea. Imagine - a souped up Mitsouko! Your personal reformulation of a classic, eh? Time to invest in that chemistry set too, huh?

I think so ... oooh, I feel so much better about reformulations now I can make my own . ( Ever the control freak that I am ! ) Basteri has a whole farm of oakmoss - I shall have to buy mine from him !
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post #20 of 31
12/1/09 at 8:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by surreality View Post

Is that 5% of the total composition of the perfume oils or 5% in the diluted ready-to-wear fragrance?

5% of the perfume-concentrate.
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post #21 of 31
12/1/09 at 7:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strollyourlobster View Post

I just ordered some Mousse de Chene by L'Aromarine, and I've got great hopes for it. I'll let you know.

Great idea! Wonderful (yet linear) stuff, but if it's oakmoss you want this is a great affordable option.
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post #22 of 31
12/1/09 at 7:46pm
Parfums Regence, the people behind Kolnisch Junchten, have a scent called simply Oakmoss.

I've smelled it and it's basically the mossiest chypre you could possibly imagine.
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post #23 of 31
12/2/09 at 1:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by surreality View Post

Is that 5% of the total composition of the perfume oils or 5% in the diluted ready-to-wear fragrance?

Here is my source:

http://1000fragrances.blogspot.com/2...ouko-note.html

Octavian refers to the extrait and I´m quite sure that means 5% of the un-diluted fragrance.
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post #24 of 31
12/2/09 at 2:10am
Because of the dilution factor, EdTs and even moreso, EdCs could actually have more oakmoss in them than EdPs (more oakmoss as a percentage of the formula, anyhow). Just something to consider.
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post #25 of 31
12/2/09 at 7:00am
I'd recommend Frederic Malle's Vetiver Extraordinaire. It had been sitting unused for some time now but yesterday I just had on one spritz on one lower arm / elbow region yesterday morning. Well into the afternoon, a co-worker (with a very good nose) came over and said whatever I had on was very good. VE has a very sizable dose of Evernia Prunastri extract which is the real thing, i.e. oakmoss. You really should try it if you haven't.
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post #26 of 31
12/2/09 at 7:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SculptureOfSoul View Post

Because of the dilution factor, EdTs and even moreso, EdCs could actually have more oakmoss in them than EdPs (more oakmoss as a percentage of the formula, anyhow). Just something to consider.

I don't understand?
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post #27 of 31
12/2/09 at 8:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delmar View Post

I'd recommend Frederic Malle's Vetiver Extraordinaire. It had been sitting unused for some time now but yesterday I just had on one spritz on one lower arm / elbow region yesterday morning. Well into the afternoon, a co-worker (with a very good nose) came over and said whatever I had on was very good. VE has a very sizable dose of Evernia Prunastri extract which is the real thing, i.e. oakmoss. You really should try it if you haven't.

I didn't realize this. That may be why I liked this one so much right away. I thought it was one the best vetivers out there. It certainly is velvety smooth and deep!
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post #28 of 31
12/2/09 at 3:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sofresh View Post

I don't understand?

Well, the reason that is so because the ultimate limitation is 0.1% of the final product.

So, let's just compare some numbers...

Let's say we have oakmoss at 5% of the perfume concentrate. What percent is that of the final product? Well, that depends on the dilution level of the perfume concentrate. Let's do some math*:

EdC concentration - 3% perfume oil to 97% alcohol. Let's assume this is a 100ml bottle. 3% of 100ml is 3ml, so there is 3ml of juice, total. Now, 5% of that (the oakmoss) = 3 * .05 which = 0.15ml. That's the amount of actual pure oakmoss in the bottle. But what percentage is that of 100ml? Well, 100ml = 100% of the product so .15ml = 0.15%. That's still too high. With a dilution of 3% perfume oils, we could only use 3.33% oakmoss to end up at the 0.1% of final product IFRA limitation.

If we have an EdT at 10% dilution, we can only use 1% oakmoss in the perfume concentrate to = 0.1% of the final product.

If we have a EdP at 20% dilution, we can only use 0.5% oakmoss in the perfume concentrate to stay within the IFRA limits.

As you can see, the higher the ratio of perfume oil to alcohol (the higher the concentration), the lower the amount of oakmoss in the concentrate has to be.


*The easier math is to just multiply out 3% * 5% (.03 * .05) to arrive at the .15% number (.03 * .05 = 0.0015 = .15%) but as this is not as illustrative of the concept I went with the more long-winded version shown above.
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post #29 of 31
12/8/09 at 2:36pm
Received my Mousse de Chene by L'Aromarine today. At first what registered was mainly lemon. I had expected something that smelled woody and so I was at first not clear that I even had the right stuff. As it dried down it developed in a couple ways. One is it turned a bit salty, and I recognized that salty facet of several florals that I love, particularly Bandit and Odalisque. It also developed a kind of soapy/loamy/powdery thing. It's very complex and pleasant but also a good deal more shrill than what I had imagined. I suppose I was expecting something that behaved more like a basenote and smelled more like forest floor. What I got--and of course I have no idea what's actually in the stuff--remains almost citric, pungent, along with the other qualities I've described.
The other thing that seems clear is that one aspect of several very dear eau de colognes that I had thought was rose, is mostly oakmoss. I'm thinking of Chanel Pour Homme, Monsieur de Givenchy, and Acqua di Parma Colonia in particular, but lots of others. Also helped me make sense of a weird note that had always bothered me in Azzaro pour Homme.
Clearly I'm going to have to get some of the solid and dilute my own to finally know what it smells like, but do I seem to be describing oakmoss, those of you who know?
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post #30 of 31
12/9/09 at 6:14am
EXACTLY my thoughts too lobster . . . . Mousse de Chene is NOWHERE near unadulterated oakmoss - it was compared with my solid dilution.

You may be happier going DIY, I know I was.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Strollyourlobster View Post

Received my Mousse de Chene by L'Aromarine today. At first what registered was mainly lemon. I had expected something that smelled woody and so I was at first not clear that I even had the right stuff. As it dried down it developed in a couple ways. One is it turned a bit salty, and I recognized that salty facet of several florals that I love, particularly Bandit and Odalisque. It also developed a kind of soapy/loamy/powdery thing. It's very complex and pleasant but also a good deal more shrill than what I had imagined. I suppose I was expecting something that behaved more like a basenote and smelled more like forest floor. What I got--and of course I have no idea what's actually in the stuff--remains almost citric, pungent, along with the other qualities I've described.
The other thing that seems clear is that one aspect of several very dear eau de colognes that I had thought was rose, is mostly oakmoss. I'm thinking of Chanel Pour Homme, Monsieur de Givenchy, and Acqua di Parma Colonia in particular, but lots of others. Also helped me make sense of a weird note that had always bothered me in Azzaro pour Homme.
Clearly I'm going to have to get some of the solid and dilute my own to finally know what it smells like, but do I seem to be describing oakmoss, those of you who know?
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post #31 of 31
12/9/09 at 6:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SculptureOfSoul View Post

Well, the reason that is so because the ultimate limitation is 0.1% of the final product.

So, let's just compare some numbers...

Let's say we have oakmoss at 5% of the perfume concentrate. What percent is that of the final product? Well, that depends on the dilution level of the perfume concentrate. Let's do some math*:

EdC concentration - 3% perfume oil to 97% alcohol. Let's assume this is a 100ml bottle. 3% of 100ml is 3ml, so there is 3ml of juice, total. Now, 5% of that (the oakmoss) = 3 * .05 which = 0.15ml. That's the amount of actual pure oakmoss in the bottle. But what percentage is that of 100ml? Well, 100ml = 100% of the product so .15ml = 0.15%. That's still too high. With a dilution of 3% perfume oils, we could only use 3.33% oakmoss to end up at the 0.1% of final product IFRA limitation.

If we have an EdT at 10% dilution, we can only use 1% oakmoss in the perfume concentrate to = 0.1% of the final product.

If we have a EdP at 20% dilution, we can only use 0.5% oakmoss in the perfume concentrate to stay within the IFRA limits.

As you can see, the higher the ratio of perfume oil to alcohol (the higher the concentration), the lower the amount of oakmoss in the concentrate has to be.


*The easier math is to just multiply out 3% * 5% (.03 * .05) to arrive at the .15% number (.03 * .05 = 0.0015 = .15%) but as this is not as illustrative of the concept I went with the more long-winded version shown above.

I think what you are saying is...not that you will have MORE oakmoss in the bottle, because you can have 0.1% of oakmoss in any 100 ml, regardless of whether it is EDC, EDT, etc. However, you will have a larger PROPORTION of oakmoss in relation to the entire composition if you produce it as an EDC.
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