Are there any other French perfume house catching up to Guerlain's excelence in terms of complexity?

I find Amouage Gold and Ubar to be very old school French.

Is it still 1985? No? I thought so.

Guerlain has fallen far from its lofty heights - its now a commercial frag-popping factory with an occasional good composition (despite Theirry Wasseur's best attempts...) slipping out from the labs, but still barely able to nibble at the feet of the fast reformulated Guerlain classics of yore that the house still pushes to good sentimental effect.

If you are talking about the grand, expansive, loud 'french' style of fragrances then you may have missed the Amouage/ Montale/Serge Lutens revolution (ofcourse not all of their offerings are uniformly good). Try some of them and see which fits you best.

ZZ, you are really BRUTAL!!!!!!

I continue to think a lot of the Parfumerie Generale fragrances i've used are very oldskool french. I'm probably the only one who feels so, too.

Side rant - I was just saying to a Guerlain SA, what I think about when I think of their frags (of old anyway) is that I can RESPECT them even if I don't like them. To highlight one word you used "Complex", I think is a good term. I found many of Guerlain's frags are composed in a way that makes me have to think about them. They're harmonies of unexpected combination and even if I don't actually care for the result, I still respect it. Plus, it's still "reachable" for most of the masses both in terms of what the smell is and their prices.

+1.

If you combined the best of Lutens and Malle it would likely cover the full arc of French fragrance sense and sensibility, from full-bodied eaux de colognes to the richest and most unapologetic orientals. Guerlain R.I.P.

I've always thought Caron was as good myself. I don't think Molinard or Fragonard, although very good, are as good as Guerlain and Caron. No body stick me for my praise of these -ard houses (I don't know Galimard), because I have praised their products on this forum, but I don't think they're as much of a smell/imagination experience/journey, Pollux. So I think you're right when from the comments on the thread you conclude that they're not thought of as highly. Their good I believe, but not as good as Guerlain and Caron.

I also think Chanel keeps the Gallic flame ablaze!

I dunno. I've not thought much of anything Platinum Egoiste and after. Maybe I just don't get the vision they've got for what a person of our times should smell like. I find Sycomore as heartless and lost as Platinum, for example.

I'd be tempted to give a nod to Dior myself, although many recent releases tend to dreadful also. Fahrenheit Absolute, though, is fantastic to put into the mix of our times, and Dior Homme carved out new territory. Also I'm in love with the not so long ago re-releases of Miss Dior, Diorella, Diorissimo, and Diorama. Great fun stuff.

I also don't instinctively class Chanel and Dior with Guerlain and Caron because the latter two make almost only products for the nose (make up too in the case of Guerlain). Chanel and Dior sort of don't fit with the purist houses.

I find that Serge Lutens Royale Shiseido House is indeed up to date and apprises the guerlain house within realms of competition. Serge Lutens and Christopher Sheldrake put concentrated heart and soul amongst their works. Serge's hacienda of
Marrakech has evoked the most illuminating inventions that he has to offer, he discovered the likes of Ambre Sultan, The Serge Lutens best seller. It was amongst these ruins and vicinities that lied The tree that would create history, and considering the fact that it was a scarce entity to look amongst, serge knew what it held and he acted on it! He is innovative and an epoch to fashion..God can only create a man like this and it has me to believe.

He once quoted "When I find something that is more superior to perfumery, I'll take it up in a heartbeat" thus, he also quoted -> [sic] "I think hell, for me, would be a world without change, change is key to a life full of integrity!" Well with those two quotes in hand I'd say that Serge has been consistantly looking in other aspects of life though it's just Perfumery has infinite additives...It's just impossible to stop learning..It's everlasting! He's willing to change...it's just that he hasn't found a replacement yet! :P

from the guerlain perspective (smell, presentation, bottle, timeless accords); Amouage does fit in the bill and so does Malle & Serge Lutens (not exactly from the bottle perspective).

Oh, and Pollux, I forgot to mention Madrigal and Rafale which you asked about.

They're good in a foolproof, reliable gift, good to make dad and uncle happy way, but they're not on par with Habit Rouge, L'Instant PH, Vetiver. They're neat but they don't make a mark in your nose in the powerful way. (Madrigal is from the 20s or 30s, I think, and Rafale from the 70s. Neat.)

I love Guerlain. All the houses are reformulating; and Guerlain and Chanel are doing a much better job than many. Some of Guerlain's newest creations are actually quite good as well, not only their classics. I personally don't agree with the "RIP Guerlain" sentiment.

Having said that, I think that Malle, Lutens, Amouage and to a certain extent Goutal are all carrying forward that same tradition. I think de Nicolai is an exceptional outgrowth of the French perfume tradition and is very underrated. Her packaging does not help her cause, but it does keep the prices down while she is able to keep the quality of her fragrances up.

Oh yes, of course Caron, Narcus. The mens side of the line especially. The women's side has fared pretty poorly on reformulation as compared to Guerlain and Chanel as far as I'm concerned.

Amit, you should get paid for how much you promote Parfumurie Generale.

Is there no love for L'Artisan? I find Dzing! to have a very similar dry down to Jicky EdP (however I've not sampled side by side.) I also think they have a broad range even though some think they are too watery.

I probably already do get paid haha. Attachment 3855

Oohh, Haha, L'artisan is an amazing house aswell..though Serge Lutens has me at a tangent of lust! I find it's more intimate with the Serge Lutens house, like a personal relationship..though whereas with L'artisan's house it feels professional...mildly cordiall..yet mostly professional, I don't know...it's weird though I do get a inclined feeling once presented with the juice of a fine made serge lutens bottle. Which so far, is all!

- Balava

I suppose it's just a matter of taste. I like several of the l'Artisan fragrances, but the line as a whole is not really my favorite.

If any house deserves ZZ's thrashing it is Caron. WTF? They destroyed most everything they had. Guerlain is still tops! Insolence is pure genius! Guerlain Homme Intense is very, very good.

Haha. True that...I find Carons potential is ever-so-slipping atm, Though it's still a milestone! They'll thus re-invigorate their name!
- Balava

Another vote for Chanel, plus Givenchy, YSL, Hermes, Boucheron, Van Cleef & Arpels and Rochas- as designer houses
Serge Lutens, Roger & Gallet, Rance 1795- as niche houses

Up to different extents, with highly variable degrees of success and through different means, they are all some of the names who manage, more or less, to keep a more significant proportion of the original French style alive and give in much less to reformulations, generic youth culture, postmodern globalized economy and its profit margins (e.g. mass-market production mostly at the expense of quality)

I am finding whispered echoes of old-world Guerlain in the offerings of Mona di Orio.
Chamarré and Nuit Noire have this beautiful appeal to me.

Serge Lutens comes closest, IMHO, but Serge really needs to pull up his socks these days...

Patricia de Nicolai, who is after all a Guerlain herself, MUST be mentioned here.
The golden age of Guerlain is clearly over. A LVMH brand has other priorities than making the best possible perfume, which I believe the Guerlain family was truly commited to, without losing sight of economic necessities. That doesn't mean Guerlain is now all bad, but brands of this size are no longer the place to look for the ultimate in craft and aesthetics, I believe, just as you very rarely find the really good music in the Top 40 these days, or even signed to Majors.

Oh, most definitely! However, the only reason why I (personally) never considered Patricia de Nicolai is largely due to the fact that I have yet to find a perfume FBW. Most of her creations are extremely good but I'm always left wanting something more. Subjective, yes, but I definitely know I'm not the only one who has the same sentiments about this house.

Maitre Parfumeur et Gantier and Patricia de Nicolai for sure. When it comes to individual fragrances, few can match Eau d'Hermes - it's incredibly french.

Caron is nowadays very poor, I also have no interest whatsoever in L'Artisans new releases. It has been downhill after Jean Laporte left them to establish MPG. They are weak and lacking depth. Usually there is a good idea for a scent, which just is not enough when the execution is so mediocre.

I very much doubt it unless they find someone to replace Richard Fraysse

Histoire des Parfums is producing some complex "classically French" style fragrances.

Apart from their masculines and Tabac Blond I don't have much experience with the Caron classics (before and after reformulations). Going by the noise created by Caron fans, Guerlain looks pretty good by comparison ! I think the real destruction of Guerlain will come when JPGuerlain is no longer around to say "Waitaminute....thats just too absurd and cheap a formula to pander around!" from his retirement home.

mrclmind, haha, Is Mr. Richard From Caron a Perfume Iconoclast now?? wow, Hope he leaves!


- Balava!

I have some problems with Parfums de Nicolaï in a list of grand tradition French parfumers. Yes, Patricia de Nicolaï is a descendant of the Guerlain dynasty, but, IMO, she is missing some of the family's grand tradition genes. I find everything about her creations to be far too earnest. The anti-art direction, the dreary, communist headquarters-style shops, but mostly, the primness that typifies many of her creations. Guerlains are often quite sexy and can be quite loud. I can't think of one PdN that I would wear with the same vigor that I get from Shalimar, Que Plus Jamais or even Insolence, for that matter.
I feel that Amouage is one of the few houses that incorporates the grand tradition into its product, and therefore, walks the walk.
Serge Lutens is certainly close, but his oeuvre is too tightly wound up in oriental ornamentation to count as true, grand perfumery IMHO.

Personally, I think a great deal depends on how much you like Guerlain's particular style of perfumery. If you find Guerlain to be the apex of perfumery, then there is little chance another house is going to become as high in your estimations, even if it is high quality, they're likely to be making fragrances in their own style, rather than aping Guerlain.

For my part, I enjoy some Guerlain, but the entire house could go down like the Titanic and it wouldn't be taking any of my favorites with it.

I think Guerlain, Caron, and Chanel are all to some degree retaining some of the traditions - and historic fragrances - of French perfumery.

Annick Goutal I'm on the fence about, as it seems to be on the fence of a lot of categories, somewhere between designer and niche, not quite old enough to be a classic house, but going well before the majority of the modern niche houses. I'm not sure about complex per se - my favorite Goutal, Sables, is actually quite simple - but undeniably very French.

If I had to name one modern French house that carried those traditions forward in a complex way, it would be Parfumerie Generale. Complex, nuanced fragrances that are focused more on abstract blends than individual notes.

Though it's something that's probably better covered in another topic, I feel many modern niche fragrances, French or otherwise, have taken a different stylistic road from the classicism of traditional French perfumery. There is much less of a focus on abstraction and more of a focus on individual ingredients given a starring role, like Montale's seemingly endless variations on oud; Lutens' classics like A La Nuit ( jasmine ), Iris Silver Mist, Chergui ( tobacco ); Malle favorites like Carnal Flower, Vetiver Extraordinaire, Musc Ravageur. Not to say these are less complex for doing so, merely that the style and focus seem to have shifted in a different direction from the abstract fragrances of yesteryear.

Of course, there's no way of predicting where each house will go next, whether it's Serge giving us something fresh or an Avante Garde house like CdG putting out something like Daphne ( which smells to me like some floral from the '70s! )


Going on some opinions over on the womens' forum, it may be the case that the demise of the Caron feminines was greatly exaggerated.

I don't know that I would say it's highly exaggerated... but that it's a matter of preference. The reformulations of Caron's classic feminines have definitely changed many of the scents, sometimes to an extreme. Some people actually prefer the new formulations. For someone to say that the scents are virtually unchanged is surprising to me. The changes in some are actually quite dramatic.

Loving this thread. V well put, Galamb.

While I appreciate the trend of fragrance interpretation revolving around the single note, I find more often than not, wishing for more subtle blending and complex layers reminiscent of Guerlains of old. Truth be told, I'm already getting weary of Lutens and on the verge of giving up on Guerlain's prospects with Wasser at the helm. Hunting and hoarding vintage juice seems to be the logical step forward though I find myself drawn to retro indie houses like Sonoma Scent Studio, oriental attar houses like Amouage and the neo-classic stylings of Histoires de Parfums. Indeed, change is inevitable and it's probably time to pick new favorites.

+1.


New York, Nicolai pour Homme, Patchouli Homme and Vetyver are on the same level, IMO!

Astonishing. It took 27 posts to list, to me at least, the most obvious choice. This was an instant thought when I read the title, in fact I almost didn't come in here because I figured the whole thread would be about Nicolai. I DO NOT care for PdN's creations, for the reason stated in the thread title, they smell too "old school french" for my relatively contemporary tastes.

Actually I mentioned her in post #15.

Unlike you, I like quite a few of her creations. I think she is much more understated and discrete than the "old school french."

Don't know who is correct but the general consensus is that Caron screwed up big time. Fraysse should be held responsible - J. Polge once stated that 85% of his job at Chanel involves adjusting the classic formulas to conform to the latest fickle industry and regulatory requirements with minimal deviation from the original accords. Not only is Fraysse supposedly quite inadept at this, but his insipid and frankly embarrassing (but thankfully infrequent) original launches are fit for a Caron urn in a literal sense.

I am not a big fan of Wasser but looking at Fraysse's work I realize it could be worse! With that said, I have heard that Caron has some boutique-only exclusives that are rather good...can anyone verify this ?

Oops sorry mrclmind, I must have missed it then. It keeps coming up that classic french perfumery was "loud", when I think of classic french perfumery I'm more talking about the note structure and usage.

True, she does have a number of very intensely composed creations, but much of her work I find tends toward more well done simplicity and understated elegance. I guess it really depends on which scent you are talking about. Take Vie de Chateau, Cologne Nature, Cologne Sologne, Eau Provence, de Nicolai Pour Homme, Baladin, Balle de Match, Rose Pivoine, Tonka Vanille for example. These compositions tend to be very well composed but don't jump out and scream PERFUME like much of the traditional french style tends towards...

I'm rocking L'Ombre Fauve today, so count me there too.

I'm surprised there's only one mention of MPG. I consider their creations to be in the grand French style (albeit the reformualtions and the current status of the house). To me, MPG is a precious gem.
By the way, very interesting thread.

Parfumerie Generale, Mona di Orio, Parfums de Nicolai, - I`d add +100!

No one mentioned Robert Piguet. I`d add that House to the discussion. Yes, reformulated perfumes - but I feel those perfumes as very French with classical shapes.

Bandit just got annihilated by the IFRA reforms, it's not even recognizable =( The early stuff is still very good, though.

Mpg