Missing Link: Did Pierre Bourdon create Creed's Orange Spice and copy it with Kouros?

Ruggles, if you could provide the link to the other thread you quote from, that would be of interest.

I'll buy the story off the strength of Pierre Bourdon's level of taste and execution, in pairing with the vacuum of pre-1980 CREED info.

Well we all wonder what is truth and what is fiction about Creed's history. How much is marketing creative story telling and how much is actually fact. My first bottle of Orange Spice was purchased in the mid 1990's so I am little help.

Somebody should ask Mr. Bourdon himself! Does anyone here know him personally? I understand he has retired. He should put together a book that explains the evolution of the fragrances we all know and love from his past years of experience. His early history and close friendship Edmond Routnitska and his early work for Roure Bertrand would turn up very interesting foundational developments of the growing perfume industry in the 1970's.

But the real Creed history is a perplexing issue. Who knows what is real there.

This has the potential of being a fascinating thread, but unfortunately no one seems to really know what Creed's history really is, other than the Creed family itself, and I dont' have much faith in them revealing the truth. I think the fact that information about Creed pre-1980s seems practically nonexistent speaks volumes.

Although I have yet to smell Orange Spice, I am an ardent Kouros fan, and like Ruggles, I'd love to know the truth about the origins of these two scents.

It was a funny shock to try Orange Spice. I shot it onto a sample card and recoiled laughing. Right out of the bottle- it shares a lot with Kouros, that's for sure. I haven't given it a longer test wear, so don't know what kind of dry down it has.

Any lover of Kouros has to give it a shot, just for the big grin when you first spray it out. What do I know, but the 1950 date seems a stretch. It may just be me, but I have a tough time imagining my dad's generation using something that intense in the 1950s.

As for Creed's mysterious history, the optimist in me tends to think they may have made small batches throughout the years, but probably didn't burst out as a main stream perfumer with any real retail presence until the 70s. It's certainly not impossible, but some of their older scents (Orange Spice excepted) just seem like they're from an earlier time. RSL, REL, TABAROME, AMBRE CANELLE.

You'd think we'd have one really old cranky Basenoter who would remember them from the 50s or 60s. OR, someone who remembers their dad always wore Epicea, Vetiver or Cuir de Russie.

According to a Basenoter (I forget her nick), Fleurs de Bulgarie has been listed in Empress Eugenie's official bio as a commissioned scent.

To think that no Creed scents existed before the 1970s is too unbelievable...maybe they didn't exist for commercial consumption. Also, the oldies have probably been reformulated.

BTW, does the fact that you made an effort to create this thread indicate that you like Orange Spice ?

I totally agree. I'm sure they've dabbled in scent for years and years whether or not it was commonly and easily available.

I think they would have to reformulate. Those early perfumes had to combat a LOT of stench. I can just imagine how potent some of that stuff was.

Weren't there pictures of Creed bottles from the early 20th that were just listed like "Eau de Cologne" or something like that? They were then relabeled into current formulations. I think you're right in that most of Creed's scents were just in house bespoke blends that weren't for public sale.

Orange Spice = Kouros? Not a chance. I smell very little similarity between the two. Orange Spice has an old-school, "barbershoppy" feel to it. Kouros smells much more modern chemical to me.

And the "no Creed before 1970" idea. . . umm. . . have to say, sounds like something out of the "fake moonwalk" conspiracy theory handbook.

I agree. One also has to admit as evidence the similarity between Creed's Original Santal and Montblanc's Individuel--also created by one Pierre Bourdon...

I've been intrigued by this question since Turin established the GIT-Cool Water link. I would not be surprised. As to Creed history, we've been over this so many times
Other niche brands have shown that you can create a line of dozens of perfumes out of nowhere in very short time. So it is not impossible that Creed truly only started in the late 60s. On the other hand the style of some fragrances is clearly old-fashioned, though I do not buy most of the dates floating around - e.g. Vintage Tabarome is mid 20s earliest (post-tabac blond and habanita). It is possible that Creed produced (or had made for them) generics following the trends of the day, but this would have been a negligible side of their tailoring business. I simply do not believe that a tailor catering to the courts of Europe, travelling from court to court with his entourage to take measure of kings & queens had time to waste on concocting perfumes in the back room. David G. Williams in Perfumes of Yesterday draws a compelling picture of Victorian perfumery as widely based on the coyping or slight modification of standard prescriptions from handbooks by pharmacists etc. with professionalization driven by ionly a handful of pioneers like Guerlain and Rimmel. Whatever Creed may have been selling at the time has little to do with their current offerings, I believe. I'm also sure that Bourdon is not the only pro that master perfumer Olivier Creed has made use of. I would not be surprised if numerous other better-known noses were behind Creed perfumes.

I would be very surprised if this was not the case ! Michael Edwards might know more, or one of the giants like Givaudan, Symrise or Firmenich. But to my knowledge it's been in the contract of perfumers / perfume labs never to release the name of the noses behind orders executed.

That has changed a little after one or the other 'outsider' had started to introduce a few important perfumers to the public (guess who). But to this day Creed seem to claim doing everything in-house, and their magical talent seems to be heritable, a god-given like imperial crowns.

That would explain why most Creed fragrances are so awesome. Don't you agree Narcus? (That most Creed fragrances are awesome) ?

I don't know what narcus is going to say, but in my book the last awesome Creed was Bois du Portugal (1987). Royal Delight (1993) and Neroli Sauvage (1994) are excellent, if not quite awesome. I haven't been blown away since. Even great noses produce a lot of mediocrities.

I would easily add Feuille Verte (2006) to the list. Perhaps your tastes have changed and you are now looking for some more woody/ambery/oriental frags.

+ 1

I doubt that Creed started making fragrances as late as the 70s. Perhaps for broader public consumption, yes.

A lot of these wouldn't make sense to have been created in the 70s and beyond. They feel as if they come from an earlier period.

Until Creed gives a real release date for Orange Spice there is no way to know. Indeed Kouros could have been released first, unless there is someone here that can personally vouch for a bottle of Orange Spice before 1981.

I can't judge what I'm not meant to wear. It was never sold in Europe, as you surely know. I tried some from a mini-vial, but it wasn't enough for a full evaluation. Anyway, a perfume house pursuing a policy of keeping the really good stuff super-limited and ultra-expensive can kiss my behind, whether it's Creed, Guerlain or whoever else. As to my taste, it is simple, like Oscar Wilde's.

Allow me to insert another possibility, that Bourdon's relationship with Oliver was in part founded by Bourdon's admiration for Orange Spice.....if indeed Orange Spice is the 1950's technicolor marvel we find it to be. I would love to know more of Pierre Bourdon's initial contact and early dealings with Olivier Creed.

As do I.

There are several reference books on perfume bottles as collectibles (your local library might have one or two). Guess how many Creed bottles you will find in them?

I am of the opinion Creed may be much better at advertising than most realize. Possible benefits over controversy to their claims as to when they actually introduced or began their fragrance lines could be well thought out by the Creed Ad department. It might just be in their best financial interests to not say a word clarifying any controversial statements they have made both in advertising and in media releases about their fragrances.

Controversy definitely sells and some savvy firms know this is a proven way to increase sales. Controversy produces both negative and positive interest and those states of mind in the public appear to work hand in hand to increase revenues.

Consider that Creed is almost always in the headlines in a number of Basenotes threads and enjoying the benefits of continual controversy. My bet is Creed has one or more of their employees reading and evaluating every post about Creed here and on other fragrance sites as to the monetary effectiveness of their advertising and published history.


http://www.affiliateasshole.com/2009...enerate-sales/

The thing I find so funny is that if they did create a frag for this or that dignitary, then what happened? From the history, or lack thereof, it would seem that they were terrible frags that nobody wanted, and perhaps the dignitary was nice enough to just have a servant put it in the storage cellar, never to see the light of day again. However, some of them would have seen the light of day eventually. On the other hand, if the frags were so great, why wouldn't they want to make some money on that part of the business, like other companies did? It does not pass the smell test, pardon the pun !

Creed appear to have a mix of both positive ad reinforcement aimed at more knowledgeable fragrance users and to a lesser extent the general public while at the same time not openly discouraging the much more limited controversy about the veracity of their fragrance history. Only Creed know to what extent both approaches are working.

Ok, I have been holding up from mentioning this story for a while....but I suppose I will have to. Note I can not disclose any names, specific dates, places or events. Merely due to the fact I can not be accounted for their accuracy.

I personally know someone in the fragrance business, who has ownership of the "flagship" of many of the big houses in a certain country. I'm not sure how else to explain that. You know when you ask a house like say, YSL, to bring their products to a country, and you'll be responsible for the distribution?

Anyway, I've heard this story from one of his siblings; He was at a perfume event while working for one of the big designer houses, around the 80s or 70s. Oliver Creed was there, at his creed table which had, according to his sibling, only a single completed perfume, putting aside the conceptional/rough work. Now he liked that creed perfume and ended up offering to distribute it in said country. Of course, that single perfume was the only one that creed was readily able to produce, and distribute initially. My guess is that perfume is Creed Cologne?

Now if this story is true, and I shall check with him next time I see him, it does not prove creed did not create perfumes prior to 1970s. Orange Spice could have been made before Kouros. However, the question is, when and why did Pierre Bourdon smell orange spice, or get a bottle of it, then copy it. And most importantly, why would he even bother to copy something not very well known at the time?

I did not hear the story first hand so a lot of things are probably missing. I just thought it'd be interesting to share. And that said person perhaps could let me know a lot more about creed history. He is certainly a fan of the house, so no biased crap here.

1950 Creed Orange Spice (X)=1981 YSL Kouros (Pierre Bourdon)
1985 Creed Green Irish Tweed (Pierre Bourdon)=1988 Davidoff Cool Water
2003 Montblanc Individuel(Pierre Bourdon)=2005 Creed Original Santal (Olivier Creed[prob. Pierre Bourdon])

Orange Spice. Kouros. Which came first? I mean are we to believe that Olivier stuffed Pierre Bourdon into a DeLorean and sent him back in time where he saw Olivier's dad with beakers in hand, rockin' it out in 1950 with the groundbreaking "technicolor marvel" of Orange Spice (to the fanfare of crickets), before adding, "I guess you guys aren't ready for this, but your kids are gonna LOVE IT!"? LOL

I'm craving some Huey Lewis right now.

It does seem that people inside the business (the ones I have talked to about this) don't take Creed history seriously at all. For one, because they probably know things about Creed of the kind you just reported, but also because they are all quite cynical about the preponderance of bullshit in fragrance marketing per se.

Well, what difference would it make anyway if the true history of creed is revealed? They're still ripping people off at $280 a bottle. While the best ones are worth $150 at best.

Then you get the limited edition BS. People argue that those limited edition like Windsor and Vintage Tabarome make little profit for a company as large as creed. Maybe....But they hype they make in the fragrance community is enormous.

Creed is just good marketing all around. And let's face it, most of their creations are not that bad. They're just twice as expensive as they should be to keep up with their marketing.

Creeds used to cost a few dollars in the 70s/ early 80s as far as I know. So much for a house that only made perfumes for royalties. But maybe it's inflation, who am I to judge them?

Though the question right now is, is Pierre Bourdon a fan of Olivier creed or is it the other way around? I'm just waiting for creed to rip-off Iris Poudre.

"...are we to believe that Olivier stuffed Pierre Bourdon into a DeLorean and sent him back in time where he saw Olivier's dad with beakers in hand, rockin' it out in 1950..."

Where did the OS 1950 date originate? When was it first stated? If I could bet a nice sum of money on it never being proven (that it's from 1950 or thereabouts), I would.

Cale.it probably has the most accurate Creed launch dates. They even state the reformulation years (for e.g., REL was reformulated in 1805): http://www.cale.it/fragranza-scheda....ofumazione=162

I'm not sure what you are trying to communicate, zztop. Are you claiming that Cale.it has the relevant historical documents in their possession, or has examined these documents (if they exist)? If not, what are you claiming?

Enough with the historical documents mate!
I am claiming cale.it may know something that we don't (unless they have fabricated these dates by themselves). If Creed are fabricating launch dates, there's no need to provide a 'reformulation date'...the original fib would be fine.

Very good point. I've never seen anything Creed related in perfume reference books!

For me, zztop just showed us all how blinded by Creed claims a person can become. If there are no documents, how did Olivier know that this or that frag went back that far. This has gotten to the point of being silly !

LoL are you serious? I just posted a link to some information you weren't aware of. I am not "blinded" by this or that nor do I care much. It is just another point to consider if you are having fun asking all these questions about Creed and Olivier.

I kind of have a suspicion that the Creed story is more or less true. If you look at Pierre Bourdons career, his first job directly out of school was starting in 1971 as an apprentice with Roure Bertrand working in Grasse. The first 5 years of his career was considered as "in training" as he had no experience in perfumery busines until this first job where he did work with Edmond Roudnitska among other established perfumers who were employed by Roure Bertrand. He worked for this firm for 11 years and during this time he is given credit for creating Kouros as a project for YSL but all through his firm Roure Bertrand. This company Roure Bertrand was one of the largest processers of natural florals and other naturally grown herbs etc for fragrance. In fact Roure Bertrand got their start in Grasse many years earlier and were a leading producer of floral formulas used to fragrance leather. During the 18th century, making fragrant leather was a huge industry. Fragrant gloves were a raging fad back then. There were 70 companies in Grasse who only created fragrant formulas to give a particular fragrance to leather for gloves, mostly, but in all types of apparel. Specifically fragrant leather was a huge fashion trend in the 1700's and into the 1800's and producing these leather fragrance formulas to cover the smell of the hides was big business. Roure Bertrand was a leader in this field. It was not until the early 1900's that they are given credit for developing the eflourage process to work with flowers. Their business gradually transferred from making fragrant leather to making fragrances.

Creeds oldest fragrance formulas are mostly leather formulas or fragrance formulas that might have been used for an exotic leather fragrance (the huge trend). Creed is well documented as a courturier or clothier to the upper end clients. They used these fragrant leather formulas as did many other shops. It is very possible that Creed may have been apart of the fragrant leathers supplier business and got the idea to requisition some of these same exotic scented leather formulas as perfume for clients. Creed claims Royal English Leather to be the oldest fragrance used today still in existence. I am sure when the first encountered this fragrance it was probably a leather fragrance as leather fragrancing was all the rage. The advent of perfume companies using the materials from Roure Bertrand for perfumes slowly increased in the 1800's and became their primary business in the mid 1900's. It seems very likely that the formula for Creed Royal English Leather may have come from Roure Bertrand and it was adapted from a leather fragrancing formula that they used. Pierre Bourdon would have known about these formulas due to his apprenticing in the business when he got one of his first jobs to work on YSL Kouros for Roure Bertrand, the supplier of the natural distillastions. Roure Bertrand was also well known for have using all natural ingredients for their distillations of fragrance oil.

Pierre Bourdon was moved to the Paris office of Roure Bertrand where he was known for his work in skin creams, shampoos and deodorants. During his first eleven years at Roure he created Kouros. He left to become co- founder of Takasugo Europe where he reportedly created Cool Water as well as Jil Sander and Sun Joop for men. It wouldn't surprise me at all if inspiration for both of these fragrances (Cool Water and Kouros) came from other work done at Roure were he apprenticed and got his first 11 years on the job. He worked often with Roudnitska and Kouros definitely has influences from Roudnitska'a use of animalic muscs and cumin used in Dior Eau Sauvage. Bourdon went on from Roure Bertrand to become the Creative Director for Quest in 1991. Roure Bertrand was bought by the Swiss fragrance giant Givaudan who predominantly created synthetics and want to add Roure's expertise in naturals. Bourdon left Quest after a brief stay, to form the French branch of Creative Resources where he was managing director. He is given credit for many fragrances there, among them, GOOD LIFE by Davidoff versions for men and women. Bourdon helped create many fragrances including Renee Lezard and Aigner Leather. He worked often with creative directors of other companies however there is no mention of working with Creed. My guess is that his company where he apprenticed, Roure Bertrand had worked with Creed in years past, possibly many generations earlier in the leather trade which was evidently the seedbed for the creation of the perfume industry itself in Grasse. Lots of those early Creeds sound like they could have been perfumed leather garments or gloves made for clients back then. It is only a slight fudging of details to not mention that the perfume was made to fragrance leather articles and not necessarily as stand alone perfumes. Most of Creeds first marketed fragrances were noted for their high naturals content and Roure Bertrand was the leading source for naturals in all of Grasse. But there definitely could have been Creed fragrance formulated at Roure and some may have come from old leather formulas too that Creed had used for clients back in the dates they claim.

I guess that all of Creeds claimed history has some kernal of truth to it. This is becuase the companies were all there making natural florals and other ingredients. Bourdon apprenticed there and probably absorbed these earlier formulas and was inspired by them when working on Kouros and later of Cool Water.

It is definitely a mystery why someone at Creed, or possibly Piere Bourdon (retired) doesn't give a little more detailed history of events to help clear all this up. What harm could come from full disclosure.

Perhaps they signed an NDA?

In my opionion Creed knows all too well that the guessing game leads to curiosity which leads to further discussion which leads to increased exposure and ultimately more sales of product. The Hunt for Red October made a hit movie. The subsequent Docking of Red October as a follow-up movie is a dead issue.

Thanks for the info Buzzlepuff!

"I just posted a link to some information you weren't aware of."

If you make a historical claim you need historical documentation. Do you think that site contains historical documentation? And can you answer a simple question, which is, if they have all these precise dates from the 1700s and 1800s, don't they have to be written down somewhere? Or do you believe that it was all handed down orally, from one generation to another?

I agree they have to be written down or recorded somewhere. For that you may have to contact cale.it yourself.

For example, Creed announced a few years ago that 2000 Fleurs was now reformulated. Basenotes carried the story. I smelled the fragrance and it smelled a bit different that year. So that alongwith the Basenotes announced is enough for me.

Not sure what "enough for me" means. If I liked the frag, I couldn't care less what the historical claim was. If we are talking about historical claims, it is something that either is consistent with modern historigraphical standards or it is not, however.

(Just smelled Orange Spice so found this thread)


I never thought I'd find myself in this position, but here goes... I think I'm actually going to defend Creed here. I don't have any real hard evidence, just intuition, but my belief is that Creed has probably been around as long as they've claimed, predominantly as a tailoring house or as a leather goods perfumer as explained above. If I understand the history, it wouldn't be that unusual for court tailors to offer other products such as fragrances, which would have just been another luxury good to upsell with.

Whether Creed's people actually made up their own formulas, or they were commissioned with input from clients, or just knocked off whatever was popular in the time, who knows, and as to the point about royal warrants, well that may have been a stretch, along with the 'used/created for X' when it's probably more like 'we gave a bottle to X and they use it sometimes'.

So actually, I do believe Creed when they say they've been making fragrances for as long as they have (in the sense of design, but not PRODUCTION), but it was probably just some tiny batches of a few bottles here and there for random clients with the formulas going into a notebook. Then the house sort of fizzled out and somewhere around the 70's Olivier tried to revive it by re-producing a fragrance line to add to their clothing line, the first one sitting on that table Ekove spoke about. Slowly they've added a few new ones as well as re-produced a lot of their historical ones, and here we have the house today.

That would explain why they have so many fragrances, why so many of them smell very dated, but yet why there aren't any actual old vintage bottles lying around (either extremely small production, or NO production for huge stretches of time), etc.

So the Creed we know today, the big commercial machine that pumps out bottles and advertises, really only 'started' around the 70's, but in some half-truth, they are correct in saying they produced fragrances for various high officials and have been around for a while, just more in a name rather than function.


just my $0.02