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Canada's National SHAME ( warning: bad food contained within )

post #1 of 46
Thread Starter 
Apparently there was some event happening in Vancouver that involved a lot of journalists visiting and reviewing our food. From what I've read it was all very positive, and I can vouch for the fact that Vancouver does seem to overflow with wonderful restaurants at every turn. ( Just avoid Chinatown late at night, trust me - that one place that's open? You don't want to go there. ) You can get everything seemingly everywhere, and from the amount of eateries per square kilometer, I wonder if any Vancouverite actually cooks dinner anymore ( other than those working at said restaurants, that is ).

Inevitably, however, Canada's true paucity of a national cuisine came to light. We're a country, for the most part, of immigrants ( and I'm pretty sure even our modern-day first nation's people would not welcome a return to a pre-colonial diet ), and so the great food in Vancouver is always someone else's. We have our own farms and fisheries, sure, but we're cooking Chinese, Greek, Indian, and a very long list of et ceteras.

To find a main course of some national repute ( BC can offer Nanaimo bars for dessert, best eaten in a bar, in Nanaimo ), you have to leave the blooming cherry trees of British Columbia's west coast, and travel to a barren, desolate, arctic place beyond even the most frigid reaches of eastern Ontario, known as Quebec. People here are rumored to be French, but given that they make neither wine, perfume, nor successful revolutions, I often have my suspicions. To compound that, the national dish of Quebec is a concoction known as poutine, something that many of these food critics from abroad spoke of with an odd sort of wonder.

Never wanting to remain ignorant of what represents us to the outside world, I decided to hunt down this dish in my locale. Finding a Quebec-styled fast food joint nearby, me and my mother decided head out and experience it for ourselves. God - protecting drunks, fools, and little children - let us walk unknowingly into gastronomic damnation.

The place itself seemed an eerie forewarning, abandoned by all but the man behind the counter. We ordered two poutines - mine with "smoked meat" of unknown provenance and hers without - and two spruce beers.

Sipping her spruce bear, mother commented "It's like cream soda... and... turpentine," and promptly put the cap back on.

When the poutines arrived, we started to have an inkling of what we'd gotten outselves into.

The sight of poutine is not for those with a weak constitution. Fries appear drowning in a dark substance, related to gravy but with a stringy, coagulating texture and an eerie shine, in which what appear to be ghost-white blobs of fat are floating.

Skewering one of the blobs with a fork, my mother took a bite. "It's squeaky, like erasers," she opined.

Feeling I was on safer territory with the meat, I decided to try a piece. The only thing sure in its existence - I've yet to ascertain the animal - is that is was most definitely smoked, but how, and with what, remains a riddle for future ages to solve. Perhaps it resided in an ashtray for a month; perhaps it dangled ornamentally from a tailpipe of an SUV. Either way, the taste was sincerely petrochemical.

The "gravy" itself had an odd habit of being extremely difficult to swallow, somehow attaining a texture identical to phlegm, which slowed down an already unpleasant eating process. Perhaps mercifully, it had almost no flavor in itself.

The cheese had defeated my mother, who had stopped eating after two bites. Truly, it's lukewarm temperature and distinct rubbery texture endeared itself to no-one, and had a milk-going-off taste that at least highlighted its origins.

The fries, to be true in recounting this experience, were greasy, soggy ( naturally ), but all in all, harmless. Good is not the right word, for they were only good in the sense of people who see an accident and do nothing are "good". The horror that surrounded them was too intense for those pieces of potato to be considered innocent.

By some force of will I ate the whole plate simply because I wanted to say I'd done it. It was one of the bravest things I've ever done, if you'll forgive a lack of modesty, and half the challenge was in preventing it coming right back up as soon as I'd eaten it.

I am Canadian, I survived poutine, and yes, I think myself and all who've faced their inner demons - and the ones huddling on the plate in front of them - deserve a gold medal.

You have been warned!
post #2 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galamb_Borong View Post

Just avoid Chinatown late at night, trust me - that one place that's open? You don't want to go there.

Hmmmmm.....interesting. Happen to know the address? I might scout it some time.
post #3 of 46
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nsamadi View Post

Hmmmmm.....interesting. Happen to know the address? I might scout it some time.

Not sure. Me and a friend were there late at night, and found Chinatown shut down tight. The nearest open Chinese place was a little ways out of Chinatown proper, down on Main, just slightly up - I think - E. Georgia. We called it "House of Mouse" for a little friend who showed up during dinner...
post #4 of 46
G_B, this is a very good post, thought provoking and entertaining at the same time. I also believe all that L'Arte de Gucci has been sharpening your writer's skills and you are excellent at that. Please consider writing more for us and even earning your living with that gift.
post #5 of 46


Hmm, cheesy
post #6 of 46
Could be much worse - Milk in a Bag, for example.
post #7 of 46
So most food critics liked poutine? Perhaps you should try a more reputable poutine joint, if one exists?

Funny post! You're a good writer!
post #8 of 46
Nothing says Canadian cuisine like poutine, montreal smoked meat and nanaimo bars, to me and I'm from the US. I have to agree with adonis, the milk in the bag thing is weird. Cheese and potatoes are two of my favorite foods, so I don't see that as a bad thing. I'd find word of mouth recs for the poutine and try again.
post #9 of 46
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereotomy View Post


Out, demons, out!
post #10 of 46
The spruce beer caught my attention. I'd like to hear more about that!
post #11 of 46
Where was it that had deep fried butter last year? That's almost as bad......actually worse.....than what has been described to me by a friend as a "Glasgow supper".
post #12 of 46
Galamb- you write so eloquently - despite poutine sounding quite monstrous, I think I would like to try some. Man vs Food style and get the T- Shirt after saying " I ate and survived poutine ! "
post #13 of 46
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by odysseusm View Post

The spruce beer caught my attention. I'd like to hear more about that!

Actually, spruce beer wasn't too bad ( though mom hated it ). It's only "beer" in the sense that root beer is beer, though. It tasted a bit like Mountain Dew with a slight spruce flavor. I think I'd like it if it wasn't sweet and more like a dry/sparkling kind of refreshment ( like club soda infused with spruce, or something ).
post #14 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galamb_Borong View Post

(like club soda infused with spruce, or something).

Ohhh, someone should invent that! Sounds kind of like light gin without the alcohol...yum.
post #15 of 46
I had some of the best apple ciders I ever had up in BC. Home brewers in the Okanagan do a wicked libation...

Ice wines...

Moose Ribs were awesome...

alder smoked salmon...

and pit beans made from Navy beans, cdn bacon and maple syrup hit the spot every time.

Gotham Steakhouse is one of my all time faves and I've eaten a LOT of steak in a lot of places.

Poutine has to be done right, if it's done with cheap ingredients and left to sit in a warmer, it's definitely gross
post #16 of 46
Good Scottish spruce ale is a fine drink. While this dish makes Sloppy Joe look like Haute Cuisine. But perhaps, if you use genuine fresh Cheddar curds (fromage en grains), with hand cut french fries and a natural home made sauce it adds up to something better.
post #17 of 46
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thaifighter View Post


Ice wines.

Another foreign idea that worked well when transplanted here. These are great - an ice wine from Tinhorn Creek was the best wine I've had. If I didn't hate the effect alcohol has on me I'd definitely be exploring our local wines more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thaifighter View Post

and pit beans made from Navy beans, cdn bacon and maple syrup hit the spot every time.

The weird thing is, the only time I've ever seen Canadian bacon is in the US, and in the UK ( sold as gammon ). Never here.
post #18 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by odysseusm View Post

The spruce beer caught my attention. I'd like to hear more about that!

Haha. Took the words right out of my mouth Ody. I've heard of Birch Beer, but Spruce? Now I'm listening.

Oh great post Galamb, very entertaining read.
post #19 of 46
I believe Poutine is also very popular in Belgium too (I thought it originated from Belgium?) and you see it on most menus in cafes and restaurants. I've cooked it myself a few times as comfort food and will eat it maybe every 2-3 months or so as a treat. It's a dish which isn't meant to taste amazing or look pretty, it originated by mistake but I don't think it's that but it's food which is considered 'junk food' and most people eat it as if it's 'junk food'.
post #20 of 46
In Canada, it is simply known as "Back Bacon"...

I mean what else are you gonna call it in Canada???

"Us Bacon"???

ona serious note, we make baked beans with ham hocks or bacon (belly) and brown sugar or molasess...

The Cdn version with maple syrup is outstanding!@

TO be honest, the US has very few genuine cuisines. Barbecue is the most original with it's emphasis on low temps and cheap cuts being flavored by smoke, love and spice...
post #21 of 46
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thaifighter View Post

The Cdn version with maple syrup is outstanding!

I've never had it ( only used molasses, as maple syrup is on the pricey side ), but I may have to give it a whirl.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thaifighter View Post

TO be honest, the US has very few genuine cuisines. Barbecue is the most original with it's emphasis on low temps and cheap cuts being flavored by smoke, love and spice...

I think a lot of the US cuisines are immigrant cuisines that evolved into something new there. Certainly American Chinese, American Italian and American Mexican show a large difference between what's served in most places states-side and their home country originals.

I love Creole cooking though. New Orleans was, all in all, more scary than fun, but the food was an unquestionable highlight.
post #22 of 46
On the subject of spruce beer... Anchor Brewery (San Francisco) makes a great Christmas Ale. Each year it is flavoured with some sort of coniferous essence. The beer is much like a stout, very dark and creamy, with an aromatic "zing" from the wood. It is marvelous thing to drink.
post #23 of 46
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by odysseusm View Post

On the subject of spruce beer... Anchor Brewery (San Francisco) makes a great Christmas Ale. Each year it is flavoured with some sort of coniferous essence. The beer is much like a stout, very dark and creamy, with an aromatic "zing" from the wood. It is marvelous thing to drink.

Interesting! I'll be down in San Francisco at the end of this month... I wonder if they'll have any left over from the holiday season?
post #24 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by thaifighter View Post


TO be honest, the US has very few genuine cuisines. Barbecue is the most original with it's emphasis on low temps and cheap cuts being flavored by smoke, love and spice...


Now stop that! It's too late to be getting this hungry. **drooooool**
post #25 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galamb_Borong View Post

I love Creole cooking though. New Orleans was, all in all, more scary than fun, but the food was an unquestionable highlight.

I gotta hear the story behind these words. Lol
post #26 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galamb_Borong View Post

I've never had it ( only used molasses, as maple syrup is on the pricey side ), but I may have to give it a whirl.



I think a lot of the US cuisines are immigrant cuisines that evolved into something new there. Certainly American Chinese, American Italian and American Mexican show a large difference between what's served in most places states-side and their home country originals.

I love Creole cooking though. New Orleans was, all in all, more scary than fun, but the food was an unquestionable highlight.

Creole is a variant of French Cuisine and Haitian/French using using locally available fare. N'awlinz is indeed scary and amazing. In many ways it is still the dangerous and corrupt port city of yore...

The quality of the Chinese/Italian/Mexican/Greek/any cuisine is a reflection of the social status of the immigrants that arrived on our shores...

if there was a large, wealthy Chinese class arriving, then they would demand quality that was comparable to home. THis would lead to support fine dining establishment keeping to the traditions of the homeland.

Quote:
Originally Posted by odysseusm View Post

On the subject of spruce beer... Anchor Brewery (San Francisco) makes a great Christmas Ale. Each year it is flavoured with some sort of coniferous essence. The beer is much like a stout, very dark and creamy, with an aromatic "zing" from the wood. It is marvelous thing to drink.

I LOVE anchor steam!!!!
post #27 of 46
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtgprox05 View Post

I gotta hear the story behind these words. Lol

I wish it was more of an adventure than it is, but for the most part, what sticks in my mind is the ruinous level of poverty I saw, the endless crumbling houses, the sheer filth of much of the city outside the well-touristed areas. I was expecting it to not be in great shape after all it's been through, but I saw something that looked more like Haiti than the USA. Most interestingly, I was traveling with a man who'd spent most of his life there, and some of the most dire areas were apparently much the same before the hurricane.

I love how the locals talk about it, though. "We were caught in a gun fight last night, and you know what - the shooters were white! That's the first time I've seen that this month." ( I swear I am not making this up. )

If you want a serene vision of the Old South, I recommend historic Savannah. If you want to visit a portal to hell with great gumbo served right at the entrance, by all means visit New Orleans.

( With apologies to any New Orleans natives who've been offended by this - here's hoping things get better for you soon! )
post #28 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galamb_Borong View Post

Interesting! I'll be down in San Francisco at the end of this month... I wonder if they'll have any left over from the holiday season?

Check it out, you may have to ask around. Anchor says its holiday beer (because of the wood element which is a preservative) can age and improve. I've drunk it a year later and it is still good. Not many beers can make that claim. Here's a label.
post #29 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galamb_Borong View Post

I wish it was more of an adventure than it is, but for the most part, what sticks in my mind is the ruinous level of poverty I saw, the endless crumbling houses, the sheer filth of much of the city outside the well-touristed areas. I was expecting it to not be in great shape after all it's been through, but I saw something that looked more like Haiti than the USA. Most interestingly, I was traveling with a man who'd spent most of his life there, and some of the most dire areas were apparently much the same before the hurricane.

I love how the locals talk about it, though. "We were caught in a gun fight last night, and you know what - the shooters were white! That's the first time I've seen that this month." ( I swear I am not making this up. )

If you want a serene vision of the Old South, I recommend historic Savannah. If you want to visit a portal to hell with great gumbo served right at the entrance, by all means visit New Orleans.

( With apologies to any New Orleans natives who've been offended by this - here's hoping things get better for you soon! )

I've heard similar things from a friend who must travel through New Orleans often for his job. He literally will not even stop for gas there, and doesn't travel through the area without carrying pistol in his car, within reach (after a guy with a knife tried to mug him while he was gassing up in the city, and the sight of the gun was the only thing that dissuaded the guy from attacking). It's sad - such desperate levels of poverty and lawlessness in an American city. I'm sure its an interesting place to visit, minus the crime, but for now I think I will stick with Canada if I want some French-North American culture.
post #30 of 46
Hi folks-I'm a new Candian in your midst. I live in Ontario. At one point in my life-I used to go to school at The University of Windsor. There was not much fun to be had in Windsor. So, every so often we would head to Detroit for fome Jazz. Detroit is another world altogether compared to Canada. It looks like a ghetto in some parts-very scary. Even when I go to L.A. to visit my mother--it's not the same as Canada-not as clean-not as safe. There's a run down look about it.

As for poutines-you need to have stomach of steel for that stuff-- That-or a a box of Zantac for the after effects.
post #31 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanore View Post

Hi folks-I'm a new Candian in your midst. I live in Ontario. At one point in my life-I used to go to school at The University of Windsor. There was not much fun to be had in Windsor. So, every so often we would head to Detroit for fome Jazz. Detroit is another world altogether compared to Canada. It looks like a ghetto in some parts-very scary. Even when I go to L.A. to visit my mother--it's not the same as Canada-not as clean-not as safe. There's a run down look about it.

As for poutines-you need to have stomach of steel for that stuff-- That-or a a box of Zantac for the after effects.

errrr...

Detroit is another world altogether from the rest of the US!!!!

That's like traveling to Saskatoon or Winnipeg and thinking that represents all of Canada!
post #32 of 46
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thaifighter View Post

Detroit is another world altogether from the rest of the US!!!!

That's like traveling to Saskatoon or Winnipeg and thinking that represents all of Canada!

This is very true - there is a BIG variety in American cities, likely much more than in Canada. Some, like San Francisco, I feel very at home at ( there are dangerous areas, like any city, but in general it's clean, friendly, and very culturally similar to my home town and Vancouver ). Some, like New Orleans, I'd rather not spend any time in at all, especially away from the touristy parts. Many are in-between, and one has to be careful what side of town one finds oneself in ( Miami and Seattle both struck me as being this way ).

Certainly, if I judged my time in the US by my very first night there, I'd have never gone again. After getting off the ferry, I was stuck at the Seattle bus station with no money, my ticket stolen, my credit card not working, and without anywhere to go but a run-down bus station that looked like it had phoned central casting and ordered fifty generic street thugs. And yes, it happened to be a dark and stormy night.

I can say that every experience I've had in the US since has been an improvement on that.
post #33 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galamb_Borong View Post

Certainly, if I judged my time in the US by my very first night there, I'd have never gone again. After getting off the ferry, I was stuck at the Seattle bus station with no money, my ticket stolen, my credit card not working, and without anywhere to go but a run-down bus station that looked like it had phoned central casting and ordered fifty generic street thugs. And yes, it happened to be a dark and stormy night.

That sounds like any skytrain station in Whalley or Downtown Lower Eastside Van...

I'm glad to hear of the improvement in your experience. I would suggest to you that if you are the adventurous type that you try New Orleans again with a local that really knows the city. It will always be a dangerous place, but it has it's splendors and amazements that make it well worthwhile.

Tiptina's in midtown is one such place. On one occasion I watched Stanley Clarke make a bass guitar sound like a symphony and lead an en rapt audience for three solid hours of solo performance that was virtuosity to an extreme. Another trip found the David Grisman Quintet preaching to the choir...

all in an atmosphere that had cheap, quality beer, fun people and a great vibe. If you went to downtown Van and mixed Blunt Bros with the Cambie and threw in the best live music anywhere for the small stage and it's an experience worth living at least once...
post #34 of 46
I find downtown San Francisco quite dirty and the surrounding suburbs almost antiseptic and void of any distinctive character. If it wasn't for the great Golden Gate views and the world class tech industry, I wouldn't give Metro San Francisco a second look.

(Downtown) Detroit may be ragged and downtrodden, but it has one of the best airports in North America !
post #35 of 46
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thaifighter View Post

I'm glad to hear of the improvement in your experience. I would suggest to you that if you are the adventurous type that you try New Orleans again with a local that really knows the city. It will always be a dangerous place, but it has it's splendors and amazements that make it well worthwhile.

I was traveling there with a man who'd spent most of his fifty-fifty-year life as a resident of New Orleans. I don't think I can do much better than that, and from what I saw of New Orleans, you'd have to pay me a great deal of money to entice me to return. To each their own, of course...

Quote:
Originally Posted by zztopp View Post

I find downtown San Francisco quite dirty and the surrounding suburbs almost antiseptic and void of any distinctive character. If it wasn't for the great Golden Gate views and the world class tech industry, I wouldn't give Metro San Francisco a second look.

Oh, shush, you, your stated location betrays you.

I really didn't find San Francisco dirty at all outside of obvious no-goes such as the Tenderloin. Probably in the US, New Orleans tops the "dirty" bill in my experience, with Charleston following not far behind ( though Charleston is very area-dependent - very nice areas are less than a mile from slums ).

Of course, places like some of the suburbs I stayed in around Salt Lake City are completely spotless, but dull indeed if you want to do something apart from staring at mountains.
post #36 of 46
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thaifighter View Post

Downtown Lower Eastside Van...

It's been infamous since my mother was growing up in Vancouver. I'm not sure why it hasn't changed, given its fairly desirable and convenient location ( things that have utterly transformed places like Granville Island and Lower Lonsdale, which used to be much the same ).
post #37 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galamb_Borong View Post

Out, demons, out!

That's quite popular as a hangover "cure" in Whistler if I'm not mistaken. (shudders at the very thought)
post #38 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by zztopp View Post

I find downtown San Francisco quite dirty and the surrounding suburbs almost antiseptic and void of any distinctive character. If it wasn't for the great Golden Gate views and the world class tech industry, I wouldn't give Metro San Francisco a second look.

You're totally right. Aside from Berkeley and Oakland (as well as not-quite-SF-suburbs like Santa Cruz and a couple of coastal areas), most of the Bay Area is just a suburban sprawl nightmare, no different than you can see anywhere, though much more diverse in terms of population.

And SF does generally stink like pee. You get used to it...
post #39 of 46
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogalal View Post

You're totally right. Aside from Berkeley and Oakland (as well as not-quite-SF-suburbs like Santa Cruz and a couple of coastal areas), most of the Bay Area is just a suburban sprawl nightmare, no different than you can see anywhere, though much more diverse in terms of population.

I can't think of a city in the US or Canada that isn't this, and even in the UK, if a place doesn't have a generic suburb around it, it's usually a small cathedral town whose main industry is tourism. There was a great post a while back from a resident talking about the houses tourists see in Amsterdam versus what most of the locals live in . The generic suburb is a curse of the modern world, I'm afraid.
post #40 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galamb_Borong View Post

I can't think of a city in the US or Canada that isn't this, and even in the UK, if a place doesn't have a generic suburb around it, it's usually a small cathedral town whose main industry is tourism. There was a great post a while back from a resident talking about the houses tourists see in Amsterdam versus what most of the locals live in . The generic suburb is a curse of the modern world, I'm afraid.

NYC is but one example. Manhattan blows my mind everytime I walk through it (and I am quite well traveled around the world)...the density of character packed into the island of Manhattan is staggering. The surrounding suburbs do degrade in the razzle and dazzle (and some can be shockingly 3rd world like) but even there places like Brooklyn and Queens impress and are more than a sterile suburb. Philly and Chicago are some other examples. San Francisco just seems tiny by comparison (and with the quakes the area can go off anytime) but it has its fans..I am just not one of them.
post #41 of 46
Regarding food in Canada--there is no bagel like a bagel made in Montreal.
post #42 of 46
The best hot chocolate I've ever had was in Canada. And for an entre, the four cheese plate at a little cafe in Mt. Tremblat beat anything similar I've had in the US.

Sadly, most US cities have very poor areas and miles of nice but undistinguished suburbs. The question for each is, does it have a city within the city that you really want to visit? It's 20 years since I last visited either, but SF and NOLA's French Quarter both always answered, "Yes." Some of us are talking about meeting in New Orleans for a winter vacation and BN Meetup in 2011.
post #43 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by ECaruthers View Post

Sadly, most US cities have very poor areas and miles of nice but undistinguished suburbs. The question for each is, does it have a city within the city that you really want to visit? It's 20 years since I last visited either, but SF and NOLA's French Quarter both always answered, "Yes." Some of us are talking about meeting in New Orleans for a winter vacation and BN Meetup in 2011.

A resounding New Orleans YES for 2011 winter. I have over the years spent quite a bit of time in the French Quarter (making wearable masks which I sold there) and love the atmosphere and the history. There is a bespoke perfumer there (whose family also owned the mask store in which I sold) ... so other than the FQ ambiance, there's also a BN-related reason to visit.
post #44 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galamb_Borong View Post

I can't think of a city in the US or Canada that isn't this, and even in the UK, if a place doesn't have a generic suburb around it, it's usually a small cathedral town whose main industry is tourism. There was a great post a while back from a resident talking about the houses tourists see in Amsterdam versus what most of the locals live in . The generic suburb is a curse of the modern world, I'm afraid.

That and the "Malling" of the world. When every shopping center looks just like every other... how DULL is that?
post #45 of 46
Quote:
Many are in-between, and one has to be careful what side of town one finds oneself in ( Miami and Seattle both struck me as being this way ).

Certainly, if I judged my time in the US by my very first night there, I'd have never gone again. After getting off the ferry, I was stuck at the Seattle bus station with no money, my ticket stolen, my credit card not working, and without anywhere to go but a run-down bus station that looked like it had phoned central casting and ordered fifty generic street thugs. And yes, it happened to be a dark and stormy night.

I think you're a great writer Galamb, keep it up!

I'm sorry that you had a bad experience in Seattle. For the most part I think we are pretty laid back around here and have a wonderful downtown vibe. Then again, I don't ever hang out at the bus station :O
post #46 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by *bloomy* View Post

I think you're a great writer Galamb, keep it up!

I'm sorry that you had a bad experience in Seattle. For the most part I think we are pretty laid back around here and have a wonderful downtown vibe. Then again, I don't ever hang out at the bus station :O


Yes. I used to work at a storefront for a wrought iron artisan (Ironworks? yeah) in Pioneer Square, and because of the rather ... um... piddly yeah that's the word wage... I took the bus back to Everett. There is a triangular "park" that one of the bus stops was near... and there were sketchy types frequenting that area... the one day I ventured that way, several of them were fighting over ... god only knows what. I moved my bus stop to front of the Library after that. I LOVE Seattle, but indeed, there are areas one really needs to avoid. That said, from Seattle Center (the bottom of Queen Anne hill) to downtown is safe in daytime and "interesting" at night.

And I love Vancouver, but suspect it suffers the same kind of pockets of sketchiness as does Seattle. Very pretty city, and I got to visit "Wreck Beach" (with clothes as it was a bit cold at the time.)
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