What Fate Awaits the House of Guerlain?

I see Guerlain as a house in decline. All this is in my opinion, of course, but Guerlain's recent releases have neither continued the classical traditions of the house nor have they broken new and daring ground.

Guerlain will see the decline in the artistic department the way Christian Dior and Givenchy did. After all, they're all under LVMH. Unless, a miracle happens and someone would be daring enough to release something a little out of the norm. Samsara was pretty good IMO, if only the scent was not cloned by toilet scents. But the more safe they try to play it, the more this house will decline in the eyes of the Perfumistas, just like how Dior and Givenchy fell.

I do hope, however, the surprise perfume that Jean Paul Guerlain would come up with within this year continues the tradition of those rich opulent scents that Guerlain is famous for, instead of the few recent dissapointments (idylle, the aqua allegoria line, L'instant, insolence, Guerlain Homme) they may sell good but at the cost of artistic intergerity.

Good thing I have purchased enough scent in the past six months to, perhaps, last the rest of my life then.

(but yes, it would be a shame if the classics and new classics did not come from the LVMH version of Guerlain.)

The other sad fact is their distribution: here in malaysia, L'instant eau extreme has been spirited away due to poor sales (or so the sales rep claims), and apres l'ondee, l'heure bleu and the rest of the iconic stuff is nowhere to be found. Only mitsouko, jicky, habit rouge, shalimar, vertiver and their more modern offerings...

/rant

I think it was inevitable. All the classic Guerlains had a powdery iris note that, to me, comes close to ruining even the ones I love, like Mitsouko and Liu. The smell of grandma's CornSilk powder just isn't coming back and they haven't been able to replace that guerlinade with anything equally compelling but more modern. Just my $.02 though.

I agree that Guerlain is probably on the decline- its heyday is over and it does make me sad. I have Idylle but frankly I now don't think I like it much . It's not inspired as were Jean Paul and Jacques Guerlain's creations were . I think being bought by LVMH is like a death call for such a house as Guerlain. How can LVMH understand what a perfume house like Guerlain needs ,to survive ? It's the old oft repeated and tired phrase... " it's all money money money".
We'll wait and see the outcome.

Makes me wonder if little houses will make the next great scents. Just thinking.

Most probably the niche houses

It seems to me, that this just might be the case. They seem to have more creative control than the biggies like Guerlain IMHO .

Some of the l'Art et Matiere line is impeccable. HR EDP is one of the finest masculines around too. I think they still have a bit of life left in them yet, personally.

but sadly not accessible......I have the HR EDT and i feel its already quite impressive. Sadly the EDP as well as a bunch of other Guerlains are nowhere to be found in my country. Most of their counters closed, now leaving only 4 counters in the whole of Malaysia.

As long as JP Guerlain is alive, i still have hope that they would come up with something that would remind me of the wonders of perfumery(like the older offerings of apres l'ondee).

I just realized that L'instant PH has a lot of similiarities with eau de beaux / armani attitude(diamonds? the one with cocoa in the notes) another "our version of..." GUERLAIN!!!! NUUUU BE ORIGINAL!!

A few comments...
I think if you moved this conversation to Guerlain's exclusives we'd have a different thread going. I limit my sniffing to higher quality scents, and can say that Rose Barbare held up to 98% of the roses out there has no equal. The Art and Material line in general is one of my favorites (along with the Caron fountain parfums). The Charnal line plays it safe, but even so is pretty darn good.

Guerlain, IMO, has done a bravo job of bringing their scents into the new world of IFRA and global warming (with its shrinking materials supply). I've tried vintage Guerlain of my favorite fragrances, and prefer the newer EDP versions (see my thread on Chamade).

Nope, this house isn't going anywhere, me thinks, but they do need to start taking more risks, because houses like JHaG and Sonoma Scent Studio are a definite threat.

The kind of creative impulses Guerlain gave to perfumery in the 19th and 20th centuries can no longer be expected these days from larger firms and even less conglomerates such as LVMH, due to the unwavering tyranny of profit above all. Guerlain is slowly turning into a Nazgul in Sauron's hand, economically powerful, yet just a ghostly shadow of its former palpable aesthetic self, reigned by the pure evil of profit maximization and brand exploitation. The future for lovers of perfume lies in artisan perfumery and ultimately in non-IFRA controlled "therapeutic" and bespoke perfumery, where certain banned essences will remain permitted due to a different regulatory code.

I have a different perspective. We look back upon the Guerlain 'greats' with great fondness and proclaim that they embody their 'era' remarkably. Point in case: the whole 1930s aviation theme with Vol de Nuit and Sous le Vent etc... a time of spirited forays into uncharted territories.
I wonder - with hindsight being 20/20 of course - whether we will look back upon these "less attractive" recent releases and find they actually epitomise our "cultural fingerprint" in the 90s, 00s and 10s. It is true that sometimes we have to take a step back in order to see the broader picture (think: Monet).

Although I too feel the efforts of Thierry Wasser have been lack-lustre to date, I do hope Guerlain is not so much a house on the decline, but rather a house undergoing a modern transformation that one day may be viewed (perhaps by our children, or our children's children), with a similar measure of fondness.

This set off a weird imagination, of a fragrance LOTR's with Andy Tauer as Bilbo Baggins, Ellena as Gandalf and Olivier Creed as Gollum.

Back on topic, Guerlain is just another stud brand on LMVH's cash cow ranch, along with Dior, Givenchy, Kenzo etc. Corporate priority is to maximize shareholder gain; corporate officers can be fired or even sued if they are percieved as not acting in accordance with this aim. That's not to say corporations are evil Mitsuoko-devouring monsters, just that the creation of epic perfumes (on par with those formulated under the older, less commercial system) will be incidental to fulfilling the shareholders' wishes. Putting money towards advertising looks like a much better bet, Britney Spears' perfume proved that people will buy anything if the marketing is right.

Exactly! The epicenter of artistry and aesthetic innovation has shifted elsewhere. Guerlain is no longer an idea, just a profit-generator. Anything good left in it is due to the (fading) strength of its heritage - and what is truly to be mourned is that all the knowledge and experience amassed by the dynasty is now in hands unwilling to put it to a better use than maximizing profits.

There are so many good points made here in relation to Guerlain -in particular by Dimitri ,the good life and Zizanioides. Can't say it better !

Interestingly- i think the houses that are making exciting stuff right now are Romano Ricci's JHAG and parfums de Nicolai. Does Caron have a grandchild out there???

On the other hand, if the folks at LVMH are smart enough to eye on the success of Creed and Annick Goutal, they might just leave Guerlain to be a more artisanly perfume house so that they can tap into the niche market. It wont be too long before they realize that a house releasing bad perfume but with good marketing wont work.

anyone wanna leave this link at slyvanie delacourte's blog?

They need some consistency with regard to their position in the market IMO . They should either be exclusively high end which is how I imagine LVMH would like them to be seen - although it would be commercial suicide , completely cut out the mass market bread and butter crap - Idylle , Monsieur Guerlain etc , or go the other way and just be like many other fragrance houses with mass market appeal and very little integrity . Either way IMO they are walking a very shaky path

they should, continue to produce quality and creative mainstream stuff like what they were doing before JP Guerlain retired. I do not want to see a Guerlain's version of Le Male. now thats truly sad.

'Commercial suicide' is right, but the threat for Guerlain could lurk in their past. Guerlain's best sellers aren't the Aqua Allegorias or the new releases; on every market analysis of the best selling perfumes that I've seen (scant few) Guerlain's best entry (by market/gender etc) is usually a fragrance that was created 30-80 years ago. Habit Rouge is often their best selling men's and Shalimar for women. Guerlain aren't so much perfume makers as they are perfume archivists, faithfully recreating their classics year after year for the commercial public. But the tide of reformulations can wash away the customers accumulated over decades as their cherished product is replaced with a thin changeling. Reformulations are less frightening if you are a company that successfully pumps out new blockbusters (Dior, Coty, L'Oreal subsidiaries etc.) but older firms could be at risk of a fatal mauling. Some people love the new fragrances and others (myself included) dislike them but only time will tell who the customers side with.

IMHO it's also good to keep in mind that Guerlain has created more than 300 fragrances, and we tend to focus on the handful that have come down to us as classics. I can't imagine this is the first time creativity has been at loggerheads with commercial viability in this house. Although it's tempting (very tempting) to say that LVMH sounds the death-knell for Guerlain, I'm willing (for the moment) to consider it an awkward growth stage. The Eternal Optimist, eh?

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, I'll wait for the next blockbuster as I continue to enjoy the classic Guerlains. Of course, waiting doesn't = inactivity, and I'll be sniffing around other houses with an open heart and mind.

Lets just hope that this is just a learning curve for Guerlain and not its doom.

however after seeing CD and Givenchy, my confidence isnt exactly at its peak with LVMH.

Sad but true Guerlain's biggest money maker is not fragrance but their bronzing range.

Perhaps if they went the Serge Lutens route and started releasing some of the boutique exclusives in department stores as limited editions it might just get the normal perfume buying public interested. It would also give them more of niche feel. The newest fragrance releases are just the same old same old as the other popular sellers of the moment. Oh florals are in this season so every house releases the same fragrance with their own name on it.

They already have a niche exclusif range. La petit robe noire, Le arte en matiere, Les exlirs charnels etc......

Simple. Fewer releases. Cut out the stupid practice of releasing some perfumes at an unbelievably exhorbitant prices and instead sell high quality fragrances at a mid-high price points in sensible sized bottles. Drop profit on the individual unit so as to gain higher overall profits by increasing sales volume.

Yeah right.

In the current state of global economic organisation things can only get worse.

Betrand Arnult will point at creeds and say "if they can, so can we!"

and thus, Guerlain, Dior and Givenchy now have Niche exclusif stuff priced at a kidney or a heart valve or two.

I'm of course still a neophyte to the house of Guerlain (see my wardrobe); but I feel:

L'instant Magic is a superior creation that is worthy of being called a modern L'Heure Bleue.
L'instant PH is also pretty good.
Idylle is nothing special but still lovely.
Reformulated Mitsouko EDP still smells pretty good (wearing it today actually).

Guerlain is making money and still has large fan base. Where's the problem? Oh yea, the proliferation of their product line, and us BN'ers being snooty at times and preferring the "artisanal" frags created by perfumer-wannabes with their chemistry lab sets..

Bud Light is making money and still has a large fanbase. Shitty beer, though, to anybody who appreciates quality brewing.
Sure, it's not easy. I suppose the Guerlain family saw no viable (and equally lucrative) alternative to selling out to LVMH. They might have ultimately closed, a mid-sized company unable to survive among cosmetic/luxury megacorps and wily little niches. I realy don't care who makes perfume as long as it's good, but I do believe economics of scale work against quality in the luxury business, including perfume, which is why most of what LVMH touches becomes mediocre.

Exactly. You begin by cutting a few corners here and there, very few if anyone notices. So you cut a few more every now and then until you end up with a beautifully packaged mediocrity. LVMH are great at creating the imagery of luxury, but there is little real substance left when they've streamlined and cheapened every possible aspect of the production.

I am still scratching my head over what happened to the House of Houbigant in the last 100 years or so. They also have a long pedigree (back to the 18th century, if I am correct) but look at the 1970s and beyond. The last release I can recall was Lutece, and that was so-so. The famed Musk Oil is still found here and there...

Guerlain is actually doing pretty badly in the fragrance dept here in Asia tho.

jacques guerlain was a poetic soul.
no more guerlains like he made them, those days are over.
and i think turin was spot on when he mentioned patricia de nicolai as the should-be heir of guerlain.

Sadly I have to agree. I've mentioned this before: Thierry Wasser is the last person I'd expected as a chief nose for Guerlain. It is a huge miss-step by JP Guerlain and it's taking down the dodgy path of mass market mediocrities. Guerlain wd have done better had they poached Jacques Polge, or Bertrand Duchafour or even Francis Kurkdjian. Based on what I hear in terms of style, PdN is the heir-apparent.

It would appear that there is some tiptoeing into this arena going on http://perfumeshrine.blogspot.com with a slight nod to those who care about such things with their "Guerlain Aqua Allegoria Bouquet Numéro 1," which references lineage and perfumer(s) and odd things like that. We'll see.

even if Guerlain were to re-invent itself and go for a different direction, nothing much will change because there's more innovative perfumers out there who can create something just as similar.

But smart thing for Guerlain to do would be to bring those rich smelling baroque perfumes back into style. That way they'll be able to carry on further as after all styles and trends are all controlled by the industry and the people in them.

I'm not really up on the who's who of perfumers but I recognize every name in your post and can think of a few very good juices they've put together . . .all except Therry Wasser. I guess he did Truth for CK but that's the only one I've heard of. An unusual choice indeed and hardly the obvious candidate for chief perfumer of (arguably) the most lauded perfume house.

I have to agree with those who see the Guerlain flacon as half empty and not half full.

Bud Light? Not really a very apt comparison. I will say a more appropriate comparison would be with a company such as Microsoft. A glowing tech history, still considered a giant in its domain, and was most innovative during the early years, but clearly not as cutting edge today (arguable atleast in Microsofts case), and shaky leadership. Still occasionally puts out a great product once in a while but relies mostly on relaunches of its core products to shore up sales and nostalgia (Windows, Office).

Yes, Guerlain is the Microsoft of the perfume world.

err.. that is not really a very apt comparison. in fact, it makes no sense at all.

Don't blame Thierry Wasser for mediocrities. Blame LVMH for briefing him to create mainstream stuff on a shoestring.

I also wonder about Patricia de Nicolai. I don't know that much about her as a person or a business exec. But I've tried a number of her perfumes and they're great -- original, but not weird. It is said that many of them have been reformulated, which I've experienced personally with Odalisque. And it did seem as though PdN didn't put up much of a fight. I wonder what her long-range plans are.

I've written about this before but I can't help see many parallels between the music business of the 80's into the 90's and the perfume business now. Small labels putting out quality music get devoured by big conglomerates run by bean-counting Suits who are afraid to rock the boat. The business model: throw money at it, if it doesn't stick right away, dump it and on to the next thing. No respect for the consumer, no real development, just the short-term thinking that has, imho, drive all the "creative" businesses right into the ground.

Yes but what happens if you live outside Paris or the US(yes there are other countries), just because you guys get it all doesn't mean we do. I was referring to releasing these as limited edtions for the rest of the world, not just the US which gets everything. Every department store world wide as Serge Lutens does with his Paris exclusives for one year on general release.

Department stores in the UK and Ireland have nothing but the usual suspects and even then if you want more than edt you have get it ordered in especially.

It wont make sense to you if you don't know how Microsoft operates or what Microsoft is. To me I can draw enough parallels between Guerlain and Microsoft and it makes sense to me because I am in the business technology domain. You may choose to make an artsy/design corporate/classical music comparison if you choose.

Maybe you could be more helpful and actually explain your Microsoft comparison to him.

Also, being in a particular domain doesn't mean you automatically make sense.

See my post #45. I don't know what more I should say, its self explanatory. I dont have time to put it in simpler english he can run it through a translation tool.

Your comparison to Microsoft is flawed and you try to hide it by telling more trivial stuff such as that 'you are in the business technology domain', as if that would make anything you say have more sense. Way to go.

Guerlain has been acquired by LVMH because it couldn't operate alone anymore. Now LVMH is dictating the mediocrities from above for this brand. Microsoft, as you might know, is an independent company, very capable of deciding its own direction, producing more technology patents than almost any other company in your 'business technology domain'.

Your comparison is wrong.


He understands your English just fine, just like most non-native English speakers here on the forum do. Do you really need to be this degrading to people who speak English as a 2nd or 3rd language? This only shows your lack of eloquence.

I've heard of LMVH being compared to Microsoft, but certainly not Guerlain. Guerlain is too small to be compared to Microsoft unless they bought a bunch of smaller perfume houses along the way.

Secondly, Microsoft's products are starting to improve. That's not the case with Guerlain, Dior or anyone else swallowed by LVMH.

Which aspect of Guerlain does it has in common with Microsoft? Honestly i work in the IT sector and that comparison dosent make sense at all.

Since you intend to stretch this out, let me give you a go at it.

The comparison isn't a 1-to-1 match but its pretty close. You don't need to teach me about Microsoft, I have thorough knowledge of their patents and history (another stat: in a recently released report they lag only IBM in the total number of patents awarded overall in the Tech industry, but IBMs share is more in the server/hardware sector). If you are a Microsoft fanboy, I can understand the harsh disagreement (they are a fairly stubborn bunch), but the general consensus is that the company isn't the force it once was (the recent lull is due to cloudy leadership and immense size). BTW, LVMH is not primarily a perfume company.

As one of the leading tech giants in the industry, my comparison was intended to highlight Guerlains clout in a similar manner as that of Microsofts. An influential initial progenitor of the industry and still highly regarded (at this point we can disregard the other 'early groundbreaking' companies such as SDC/DEC/ or Molinard/Coty/etc in the perfume business. Just like how Microsoft built on the early breathroughs by these computer companies yet still blazed an early and innovative trail in the industry, Guerlain did the same by improving and building on the Coty foundations and entrenched in perfume history.

The comparison is especially apt when comparing the expanding product line - just like how Microsoft increasingly relies on past hits for positive feel and growth, Guerlain does the same with its classic line while exploring diverging product lines which aren't as innovative as its past hits. A sense of conservatism now exists in both companies (although one can argue with that both are recently resurgent with Natal/Bing and the L'Arte line) with an unwillingness to innovate as before. Both companies still exert immense influence in the industry, sometimes able to strong arm sources into obtaining the best materials or acquire software companies.

I will be glad to take this to PMs if you want more but I will not further engage in any efforts by you to either create a stir in this thread and derail it. If you don't agree with my views thats fine, present yours and we can see what you have to say.

I appreciate your ability to simultaneously see the micro and macro of things, being cognicient of the correlations and disconnects between them.

As a possible ray of hope.....who is doing the new Guerlain Eau De Cologne?

I"m hopeful for Guerlain's future, actually. i own full bottles of apres L'ondee (1906), l'heure Bleue and Mitsouko (1912 ish), nahema (1979?), Bois D'armenie (2006). Chamade is my next purchase, and Cuir Beluga i'll buy this fall.

It's also not that i don't like Tonka Imperial or Boise Torride, i'm just not a fan of gourmands (But i do appreciate the quality of these gorgeous scents)

What a bunch of nervous Nellies here! Guerlain, which not too long ago was a floundering family owned business, would have probably be long gone, or a shadow of its former self, if it weren't for the LVMH take-over! Would you rather that Guerlain went it alone and ended up trashing their classics like Caron due to a lack of funds and access to top quality resources? Guerlain is still creating and releasing some truly amazing fragrances, why are you all making such short shrift of them?
Plus Que Jamais
Insolence EdP
Spiritueuse Double Vanille
Bois d'Arménie
L'Instant Pour Homme
Monsieur Wasser's very own Quand Vient La Pluie
and Jicky, the current formula still smells great!
Would you all prefer they continued with things like Champs-Elysées, Cherry Blossom and Mahora instead?

Sylvanie's blog is this way: http://espritdeparfum.com/ leave a french comment saying that "oh look! they're talking about guerlain!" :P

k i'll do it in a bit


I have never encountered Mahora yet but Champs seems to be doing quite good here in malaysia, along with samsara. I see the tester for Champs at almost every counter and i can find it at the discounters as well. Cherry blossom was medicore.


however i do wish they'd leave at least 1 counter here in malaysia with their classics like l'heure bleu, apres l'ondee, mouchouir de monseiur etc, or the very least some of their colongues like eau imperiale (i understand this is a tropical country, and heady/baroque perfumes wont sell much) so that we can appreciate it more :P

I like l'instant PH, but its similiarities to eau de beaux is kinda disturbing especially for what i paid for it.