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Indoles.. love them and hate them... now I know why?

post #1 of 35
4/14/10 at 5:29pm
Thread Starter 
Quote from a review:

*Indoles are organic compounds, which are naturally presents in white flowers (such as jasmine, orange blossom) and human feces. At high concentration, they have a very strong fecal odour, but in low doses, which is how indoles are normally used in fragrances, they attain a fascinating floral character, rich and sensual.

Here's a picture of a Photinia in my front yard that when it starts to blossom smells fairly good, never sweet, but somewhat fragrant... but as it reaches full bloom it starts to smell rather "impolite"... then downright rude.


Is it any wonder it stinks? There must be a few kilos of blossoms on that plant!

My question: Which scents in your opinion do the same thing that my Photinia does with respect to indoles?
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post #2 of 35
4/14/10 at 5:36pm
Serge Lutens A la Nuit .... gorgeous in v light, well dispersed 'mist-over' but anything more it's indole overload for me and I smell like crap, literally. Btw how tall is that Phonitia plant in your front yard? It towers rather imposingly from the pic...
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post #3 of 35
4/14/10 at 5:44pm
Thread Starter 
It's... about 20' at the top. HUGE bugger. Huge smelly thing it is. (but lovely.)
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post #4 of 35
4/14/10 at 5:57pm
I don't tolerate them very well - Patou's Joy is about as indolic as I can take on myself, and even that's a bit too much at times. 1000 might be my general limit. There must be others that I have and wear, but none come to mind - I didn't realize what minorities those two are in my wardrobe.

I'm not completely sure that indoles are completely to blame, but I believe they are at least partially responsible for my inability to get along with most big tuberose, gardenia, and some jasmine scents. They come across as oily or overly-unctious and bilious to me, even sinister, like carniverous flowers that lure their prey with the stench of rotting flesh...well, they're not all quite that bad, but that's the idea.

That's one big ol' stinky bush you have there, but it's plain impressive when you don't have to smell it!
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post #5 of 35
4/14/10 at 5:59pm
I love indoles ,actiasluna ! That plant you have is glorious- I think my mother would adore that! She loves plants .
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post #6 of 35
4/14/10 at 6:19pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangeline View Post

I don't tolerate them very well - Patou's Joy is about as indolic as I can take on myself, and even that's a bit too much at times. 1000 might be my general limit. There must be others that I have and wear, but none come to mind - I didn't realize what minorities those two are in my wardrobe.

I'm not completely sure that indoles are completely to blame, but I believe they are at least partially responsible for my inability to get along with most big tuberose, gardenia, and some jasmine scents. They come across as oily or overly-unctious and bilious to me, even sinister, like carniverous flowers that lure their prey with the stench of rotting flesh...well, they're not all quite that bad, but that's the idea.

That's one big ol' stinky bush you have there, but it's plain impressive when you don't have to smell it!

Oh... yes. The carrion flower (I studied horticulture science at some point in the past century)... it's not like that but does make you wonder if your sewer line is "acting up")... The bees absolutely adore the Photinia... they are used quite a bit in urban landscaping for the visual impact, but seldom near a doorway (where I work they are about 8 feet from the exits, where the smokers congregate... I wonder if the landscape architect who put them there thought it would discourage gathering? They obviously don't know smokers.)

I think that I have a low tolerance for indole-heavy scents... in fact there is some scent I've recently used that is permeating my house with the "baby powder in use on a baby needing changing soon" smell right now. Hmm. I think I must check my scent wardrobe and see...
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post #7 of 35
4/14/10 at 6:21pm
Thread Starter 
Stapelia gigantea... "a bit much" says the grower of one. (I bet!) ... wonder if any perfumers have tried to capture THAT odor?

http://www.ubcbotanicalgarden.org/fo...ad.php?t=32273
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post #8 of 35
4/14/10 at 6:28pm
Yep! That cool but evil-looking flower is exactly what comes to mind when sniffing certain fragrances, except in my mind they bloom on thick and coiling, malevolent (probably super-fast growing) vines.
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post #9 of 35
4/14/10 at 7:02pm
I often wonder if I'm correctly identifying indoles. I've gone on Turin's and others descriptions, however, and assumed its that slightly astringent, piquant, motth-ball-like note I detect in most heady jasmine fragrances, and to a lesser extent in orange flower and tuberose. To my nose it's only slightly dirty, and almost soapy in high concentrations. ( Kind of fresh/rank at the same time. )

My wonder, however, comes from the fact that I find flowers in real life often have "dirty" notes quite different from the note I identify as indole. Tuberoses are rubbery at times; gardenias are cheesy; jasmine emits an overripe fruit note, yet none of these are what I've been identifying as indoles as they don't smell that way to my nose ( for example, A La Nuit is very indolic, but bereft of that decaying fruit quality I smell in the flowers ).
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post #10 of 35
4/15/10 at 1:00am
Indoles by themselves don't smell of faeces: they have more of a mineral quality, like mothballs or hot tar before a storm. The animalic facets of flowers can come from other things. For instance, paracresol, which gives the horsy note (it is present in horse sweat and manure). If you smell indole and paracresol together you'll get a reasonable impression of jasmine. Indole diluted does come off as floral.
The over-ripe fruit note is a combination of effects more than the indoles themselves. As for the "crappy" note in certain perfumes, I'd point the finger at civet (or rather, civet reconstitution) as it also contains a molecule called scatole, which does what its name indicates.
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post #11 of 35
4/15/10 at 5:05am
It makes sense from a biological perspective. Flowers exist for insects to find them. I've always thought it was interesting that wasps and hornets are most drawn to rotting meat and over-ripe figs, while many flies are drawn to animal feces, in which they lay eggs. And many blooming flowers don't smell "good" at all! It's spring in Georgia right now. I smell lots of flat or metallic or plasticky scents when walking outdoors, especially from flowering vines. I'm not sure what percentage of flowers in bloom smell "good" to us but would bet it's not large.
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post #12 of 35
4/15/10 at 5:30am
I do love Joy, but also find it is about my limit, indole-wise.

And do gardenia fit this category? I really struggled in Penhaligon's Gardenia yesterday evening. A little of that stuff goes a mighty long way.
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post #13 of 35
4/15/10 at 6:41am
I thought I had included gardenia in this category for a reason, but now that you ask I can't actually think of an indolic gardenia that I have, or have a problem with. It can be strong to be sure, but I don't get the same queasy sort of feeling about it, so maybe it's not so indolic - I guess I included it because in my mind it should fit that category being so lush and white and tropical, but it's actually a cleaner, greener sort of scent, and a bit fresh...definitely heady and rich, but not oily.

Thanks for calling my attention to that, soirdelune - I might have gone through life believing I had to avoid gardenia fragrances!
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post #14 of 35
4/15/10 at 7:07am
Thanks Evangeline

Coming as I do from the frozen wastelands of northern Europe (currently covered under a cloud of Icelandic volcanic dust!), I have never had the experience of smelling such a tropical beauty as a gardenia, so have no idea as to how they actually smell in nature

I also looked at my old review of Penhaligon's Gardenia, and it is replete with -- ta dah! -- tuberose, magnolia and ylang-ylang, so I guess there probably is quite a lot of indolic stuff floating around in that particular juice.
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post #15 of 35
4/15/10 at 7:25am
Fascinating thread! I love Basenotes...such a smart bunch of folks here.

The indolic note is something I'm experimenting with more and more lately. Sometimes that indolic, oily note is more tasted than smelled!
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post #16 of 35
4/15/10 at 7:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by soirdelune View Post

I also looked at my old review of Penhaligon's Gardenia, and it is replete with -- ta dah! -- tuberose, magnolia and ylang-ylang, so I guess there probably is quite a lot of indolic stuff floating around in that particular juice..

I wouldn't be surprised if they were common companions of gardenia, or even completely responsible for a gardenia accord. I've said this before, but I think of tuberose and ylang-ylang as the Rosencrantz and Guildenstern of perfumery because I'm always getting them confused. I also suppose other notes in the composition might be to blame in some instances - as carmencanada points out, civit might be a culprit, but I don't recall having a reaction specifically to civit, either. Take Joy - it could be the indoles that sometime bother me, but it could also be the civit, or the combination of the two, or either one with anything else.....what do I know???

Oh, I know what I know! Luca Turin almost ruined my enjoyment of sniffing my orientals lilies in my garden by pointing out the savory "hammy" note lilies tend to have. It's not hard to detect once you have the idea of it in your head, and I bet that's the indole!

eta - I've never found magnolia indolic, thank goodness!!
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post #17 of 35
4/15/10 at 7:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mochi227 View Post

The indolic note is something I'm experimenting with more and more lately. Sometimes that indolic, oily note is more tasted than smelled!

I know exactly what you mean, and it actually makes my gorge rise a bit! (That's gross - sorry.) It sounds like it must be the indolic bits that I'm reacting to, also.
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post #18 of 35
4/16/10 at 1:54am
As gardenia essence is extremely costly to extract (in fact I only know of one small, artisanal supplier) the scent is always re-created with other materials, but gardenia are indolic like all white flowers, so indoles could be part of the blend -- or not, depending on the perfumer's option. What makes people queasy with gardenia is usually their mushroom note though, which also exists in tuberose: it's very noticeable in Annick Goutal's tuberose, for instance, but in Un Matin d'orage the gardenia is treated in a very clean, non-indolic, non-mushroomy way.

@Evangeline: tuberose and ylang-ylang have entirely different smells, and are not categorized in the same olfactory families by perfumers. You'll usually be able to detect tuberose because of its fresh, almost medicated wintergreen note.
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post #19 of 35
4/16/10 at 2:13am
Are indoles responsible for the flowers that smell like the front of a flasher's mac, too? I'm thinking of ivy blossom and may/blackthorn/hawthorn. Where you catch a beautiful fleeting green scent on the breeze, but recoil when you get close to the source.
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post #20 of 35
4/16/10 at 3:08am
Indoles can contribute a mothball like note? They can be somewhat oily? Hmm.. interesting. I'm wondering if it is indoles that I find so fascinating in Amouage Reflection Man - I get a mothball like note, a slightly oily jasmine (balanced by other drier notes), and some other oddities in the scent. It wouldn't surprise me if it was indoles tho - the scent is a white flower monster with notes of ylang ylang, neroli, and jasmine.
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post #21 of 35
4/16/10 at 3:16am
Often, indoles are added when a white floral note is "reconstructed", ie when perfumers don't use much of the natural essence (though I doubt this is the case with the Amouage). And oddly, if you reconstruct the jasmine rather than use the natural essence, indoles then to stand out a lot -- they're more blended in the natural.
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post #22 of 35
4/16/10 at 5:28am
These are really interesting insights, Carmen. Thank you
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post #23 of 35
4/16/10 at 11:58am
Blackcurrants and Elderflowers both smell a bit like the cat peed on them to me if I get too close to them. But the real 'honker' for me is jasmine. I had to move tables at an Italian restaurant because it smelled so much like bad drains when I sat at a table right next to it, it was a gorgeous waft from further away. Civet doesn't seem to bother me though (I love Jicky and Mouchoir de Monsieur).
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post #24 of 35
4/16/10 at 12:14pm
LOVE an indolic white floral!
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post #25 of 35
4/16/10 at 12:39pm
Petra Ichor, "Front of a flasher's mac" is one way to say it. It seems to me that a lot of flowers have a fairly disgusting "semen" note that's not often (or ever?) discussed. Some privet-like bushes and other shrubs and vines have it, and the photinia may, too, if my recollection is correct. The buds on ours are not quite open yet, so I can't check for a day or two.

I grow orchids, and all of the ones that are pollinated by flies smell like feces, semen, dead meat, rotten fruit, or some combination thereof. I had to laugh at the promotional hype on the Halle Berry Orchid fragrance, which claimed that the perfume smelled like Masdevallia orchids. They even showed a picture of one. Masdevallias are one of the genera that's pollinated by flies. I leave the rest to your imagination.
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post #26 of 35
4/16/10 at 5:06pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Elly View Post

Petra Ichor, "Front of a flasher's mac" is one way to say it. It seems to me that a lot of flowers have a fairly disgusting "semen" note that's not often (or ever?) discussed. Some privet-like bushes and other shrubs and vines have it, and the photinia may, too, if my recollection is correct. The buds on ours are not quite open yet, so I can't check for a day or two.

I grow orchids, and all of the ones that are pollinated by flies smell like feces, semen, dead meat, rotten fruit, or some combination thereof. I had to laugh at the promotional hype on the Halle Berry Orchid fragrance, which claimed that the perfume smelled like Masdevallia orchids. They even showed a picture of one. Masdevallias are one of the genera that's pollinated by flies. I leave the rest to your imagination.

Nice.

The photinia is still pleasant but is moving into its "mushroomy-smelling" phase right now and I can understand the semen reference. Next it will go somewhat "gassy" and eventually be full-on sewer. Doesn't deter the bees and other flying things.

And interesting about the privet comment... most privets have white flowers, but...the golden vicary privet is one I can NOT stand, it's as though it sucks the air out of the... air. (and I think I'm allergic to it, many are.) The scent is SO heavy especially in a warm climate... I could have an asthma attack just looking at a photo! (and I don't have asthma).
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post #27 of 35
4/17/10 at 4:23am
Box shrubs are nasty. Pure wee. I can't understand it when fancy restaurants put little box shrubs (clipped into curious shapes) outside. I flee.
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post #28 of 35
4/17/10 at 6:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by soirdelune View Post

Box shrubs are nasty. Pure wee. I can't understand it when fancy restaurants put little box shrubs (clipped into curious shapes) outside. I flee.

I second that! I had a friend who planted an entire hedge of boxwood all the way around her entire yard. I can't bear to stand and talk out there any more, it reeks of cat pee.
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post #29 of 35
4/17/10 at 6:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Elly View Post

It seems to me that a lot of flowers have a fairly disgusting "semen" note that's not often (or ever?) discussed. Some privet-like bushes and other shrubs and vines have it, and the photinia may, too, if my recollection is correct. The buds on ours are not quite open yet, so I can't check for a day or two.

I'm actually relieved to know this and that it's not my imagination. I lived on a tree-lined street in Boston (Jamaica Plain, actually) for a while and when those trees were in pollen it smelled just like semen, and it was strong! We called them "Spoo trees" - haha! They're all over Mass - I thought they were some variety of Mimosa, but really have no idea what they were and I haven't encountered them since.
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post #30 of 35
4/17/10 at 11:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mochi227 View Post

...The indolic note is something I'm experimenting with more and more lately. Sometimes that indolic, oily note is more tasted than smelled!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangeline View Post

I know exactly what you mean, and it actually makes my gorge rise a bit! (That's gross - sorry.) It sounds like it must be the indolic bits that I'm reacting to, also.

I think I know what you two mean about this. A strong indolic note invades the whole head.

Wow, Actiasluna, that is one healthy Photinia! We have them, too, but they've not had that many blooms, at least in recent years. I don't love or hate indoles, but what I find is that I crave them in small doses from time to time. That is when I get out my Amaranthine decant (must get a bottle!) or my Saffron James Nani.

Regarding the cat pee and male juice (!) smells, I'm OK with them in small doses or from a distance. Interesting discussion here!
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post #31 of 35
4/17/10 at 11:35am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haunani View Post

I think I know what you two mean about this. A strong indolic note invades the whole head.

Wow, Actiasluna, that is one healthy Photinia! We have them, too, but they've not had that many blooms, at least in recent years. I don't love or hate indoles, but what I find is that I crave them in small doses from time to time. That is when I get out my Amaranthine decant (must get a bottle!) or my Saffron James Nani.


Regarding the cat pee and male juice (!) smells, I'm OK with them in small doses or from a distance. Interesting discussion here!

The photinia in my yard must be special. (actually, I believe it's been left to its own devizes for several years, the landscaping here has the earmarks of my old horticultural science landscape architect teacher's plant choices, and she was known for SHOWY. That, it is. In the rain, now, it's not as pronounced but the wet-mushroomy smell is still detectable.) Honestly I haven't seen another like it in this town (which is a "tree city" and a lot of the homeowners go kind of wild).

I can see how those "heart notes" of the Photinia would be nice with an oakmoss, with cedarwood... with vetiver... it would make a lovely earthy smell.
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post #32 of 35
4/17/10 at 11:52am
Here in the Pacific Northwest, photinias are trees. 20 feet is nothing. The rhododendrons here also grow to be 20 feet tall. So do the Himalayan blackberry vines, one of the 10 plagues of the Pacific Northwest. When I moved out here, I employed the strategy I had learned elsewhere of planting 20 things for every one that will survive. Here, I plant 20 things and, not only do they all survive, they produce 40 more within a year. Garden plants seem to spontaneously generate. LOL!
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post #33 of 35
4/17/10 at 11:55am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Elly View Post

Here in the Pacific Northwest, photinias are trees. 20 feet is nothing. The rhododendrons here also grow to be 20 feet tall. So do the Himalayan blackberry vines, one of the 10 plagues of the Pacific Northwest. When I moved out here, I employed the strategy I had learned elsewhere of planting 20 things for every one that will survive. Here, I plant 20 things and, not only do they all survive, they produce 40 more within a year. Garden plants seem to spontaneously generate. LOL!

Yes they do. I miss that, living in OK. The Scotch broom and blackberries, on the other hand, I can do without, PNW-style. It's like a horticultural land of the giants up there, compared to Oklahoma!
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post #34 of 35
4/18/10 at 11:56am
I've a bottle of 10% Indole in Isopropyl Myristrate. Believe it or not, it does not smell fecal or rotting as you thought it would. Although recently, I recognize it as part of the smell that you get when "you walk by a street on a warm evening and someone just been washed off horseshit off the street with water so a bit of it still lingers."
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post #35 of 35
4/23/10 at 7:49pm
Thread Starter 
Just a FYI... my Photinia passed the phase where it starts to smell strongly and is now nearly unnoticeable. I DID notice that the Photinia bushes at work are in their full-on-glorious-stink phase (sewer + skank deluxe) right now, so I am wondering whether the apparent Photinia I have is just a "more-cultured cultivar" or another thing altogether.

And I believe that the lily-of-the-valley in Anthracite may be what turns to athletic pong + white floral skank on my skin. (reminded me SO much of the stink of a soccer pal who wore a LARGE scent that turned very unpleasant on his soccer-sweaty skin)...annoying because I adore Anthracite's top and heart. (may just have to find a scent to make it all better when the Anthracite reaches the base.)
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