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Dude, what?  

post #1 of 33
5/13/10 at 10:40am
Thread Starter 
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/nationa...WS0lXuAnQau5uL

Wat

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post #2 of 33
5/13/10 at 11:12am
WTF?! The irony of it all ... this has better be a bad joke, no?!
post #3 of 33
5/13/10 at 11:21am
I don't see the problem. I tend to view this as a positive symbol that peaceful, non-extremist Muslims want to contribute to the cultural vibrancy of lower Manhattan. I actually find it a rather elegant gesture of support for the city. But I suppose I'll be in the minority on that one.
post #4 of 33
5/13/10 at 11:33am
I think it's a huge provokation.

No offence towards any muslim BNers,
but with the relatively many empty lots in
NYC, why choose this one?!
It will become a thorn in the eyes on all ppl
who lost loved ones in the disaster that is
9/11 ... but hey, maybe thats just me?!
post #5 of 33
5/13/10 at 12:13pm
If the Chinese can tolerate sushi bars in Shanghai, then I don't see why some people can't tolerate a mosque in New York. The only thing that connects these people with the people who carried out the attacks is that they're Muslim, something one in six people in the world have in common.

Though Basenotes isn't the place for this kind of discussion, ethically, philosophically, spiritually, and politically, I am against nearly everything Islam stands for. That being said, a huge part of the world is Muslim, including a significant number in the US, and we need to be able to get along in peace if we don't want to degenerate into the religious wars that have plagued this world for centuries. Hate and hostility only fuels the violence these past decades have seen in the form of terrorism.
post #6 of 33
5/13/10 at 2:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugandaraja View Post

If the Chinese can tolerate sushi bars in Shanghai, then I don't see why some people can't tolerate a mosque in New York.

Yes, but how well does the Muslim world tolerate Christian churches and Jewish Synagogues?

It's always a one way street with these people. Free speech for me, but not for thee. I'm done playing their game. Putting a giant mega-mosque at Ground Zero is insult to injury. I hope somehow this can be stopped.
post #7 of 33
5/13/10 at 2:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indie_Guy View Post

Yes, but how well does the Muslim world tolerate Christian churches and Jewish Synagogues?

It's always a one way street with these people. Free speech for me, but not for thee. I'm done playing their game.

As for Muslim religious tolerance, it strongly depends on the country, location, and the local laws - the Muslim world is not a culturally or politically homogenous mass.

That's a big part of why I can't see why anyone who believes in religious freedom would object to this. They aren't building The Mohamed Atta Appreciation Society, nor do they have ties to those involved in the 9/11 attacks. They're Muslims building a mosque the way Christians build a church.

To deny American Muslims their freedoms in their country because you consider their place of worship distasteful is to trample on the very free speech you hold dear. Being less tolerant in the US isn't going to make - for example - Saudi Arabia more tolerant, it will simply make the US a worse place to be for everyone.
post #8 of 33
5/13/10 at 3:04pm
The question is, my dear Sugan; why do they even want to place it there?!
They know they're heading for alot of trouble ... and will be a menace for
alot of ppl, why place it there to begin with?! It's absurd!

It's in disgussions like this, that I wish, I could do it in Danish, as I can explain
myself a hell of a lot better that way - obviously!
post #9 of 33
5/13/10 at 3:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiveJazz View Post

I don't see the problem. I tend to view this as a positive symbol that peaceful, non-extremist Muslims want to contribute to the cultural vibrancy of lower Manhattan. I actually find it a rather elegant gesture of support for the city. But I suppose I'll be in the minority on that one.

Yea, LJ, I get where your coming from, and it certainly seems logical, but I gotta disagree here. The scenarios posted in the article, (Pearl Harbor, Auschwitz, etc) really sum up my opinions on this. It's just flat out inappropriate, not to mention EXPENSIVE! It should be a memorial, nothing more.

Edit: Also, I have nothing against people practicing Islam, but not in an extravagant holy building on top of the old spot of the WTC.
post #10 of 33
5/13/10 at 3:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugandaraja View Post

If the Chinese can tolerate sushi bars in Shanghai, then I don't see why some people can't tolerate a mosque in New York. The only thing that connects these people with the people who carried out the attacks is that they're Muslim, something one in six people in the world have in common.

Though Basenotes isn't the place for this kind of discussion, ethically, philosophically, spiritually, and politically, I am against nearly everything Islam stands for. That being said, a huge part of the world is Muslim, including a significant number in the US, and we need to be able to get along in peace if we don't want to degenerate into the religious wars that have plagued this world for centuries. Hate and hostility only fuels the violence these past decades have seen in the form of terrorism.

And just as much, I'm against just about everything MOST organized religions stand for (except for the peace, love, and tolerance-oriented ones, most org rel seems a control device and a moneymaking machine to me.) So any large cathedral, ubermegachurch, or other Gigantic Relic of someone's bigger-than-your invisible friend just seems kind of... tacky these days.

No offense meant to anyone who is devout in their religious beliefs, I just have a huge mistrust of organized just about anything, particularly when the basic tenets of that organization set forth that the members of said organization have a get out of hell free card. (don't believe in hell either.)

As to the source of that mosque story, I dunno what I make of the Post either.

I do know that there is a community center there, and perhaps the plans got larger. If the community has a lot of Muslims, and there is a call for that kind of center... based upon our society of so-called religious freedom, if the investors have the cash, why not.
post #11 of 33
5/13/10 at 3:41pm
The U.S.A. should start planning to build monolithic Christian Cathedrals in the very heart of Islam. Fair exchange ain't no robbery.
post #12 of 33
5/13/10 at 4:28pm
My wife and I look forward to praying there.
post #13 of 33
5/13/10 at 4:38pm
Thread Starter 
I was later informed that NYPost is apparently a tabloid. I had no idea. So I'd take what they say with a grain of salt.
post #14 of 33
5/13/10 at 4:52pm
Well stated opinions aside, I don't think the Mosque will be built judging on the rising crescendo of opposition from the public.

And yes, tabloid "news" should be taken with quite more than a grain of salt
post #15 of 33
5/13/10 at 5:06pm
Wrong! ^^ There are more than ONE meaning for a word. A tabloid is not JUST "The National Enquirer". It could be "an industry term for a smaller newspaper format per spread" OR "a newspaper that tends to sensationalize and emphasize or exaggerate sensational crime stories, gossip columns repeating scandalous and innuendos about the deeply personal lives of celebrities and sports stars". Well known "tabloids" include The New York Post (the paper in question), Philadelphia Daily News, the Chicago Sun-Times, the Rocky Mountain News in Denver, the Boston Herald, the New York Observer, Newsday on New York's Long Island, the San Francisco Examiner and Baltimore Examiner.

According to Wikipedia...
Quote:
With the exception of the supermarket tabloids (see below), which have little mainstream credibility, the word "tabloid" in the U.S. can refer more to format than to content... The tabloid format is used by a number of respected and indeed prize-winning American papers.
post #16 of 33
5/13/10 at 5:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manuel View Post

My wife and I look forward to praying there.

Dude, really? That seems like quite an insensitive remark to make. You and your wife are 100% free to practice whatever religion you please, but how can you not acknowledge the crude gesture that building a mosque on the site of the WTC attacks is? It's a symbolic kick to the balls.
post #17 of 33
5/13/10 at 5:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtgprox05 View Post

Dude, really? That seems like quite an insensitive remark to make. You and your wife are 100% free to practice whatever religion you please, but how can you not acknowledge the crude gesture that building a mosque on the site of the WTC attacks is? Is a symbolic kick to the balls.

Islam, too, was hijacked on that horrible day.
post #18 of 33
5/13/10 at 6:10pm
Its also on CNN - is the muslim org invading the country and forcibly building a mosque near the spot (not on the spot) or are they going through the proper channels ?

BTW I thought this was more provocative (and the rule that lead to it): http://www.cnn.com/2010/TRAVEL/05/13...ex.html?hpt=T2
post #19 of 33
5/13/10 at 6:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by actiasluna View Post

And just as much, I'm against just about everything MOST organized religions stand for (except for the peace, love, and tolerance-oriented ones, most org rel seems a control device and a moneymaking machine to me.)

No disagreement here!

Quote:
Originally Posted by AromiErotici View Post

The U.S.A. should start planning to build monolithic Christian Cathedrals in the very heart of Islam. Fair exchange ain't no robbery.

Islam is a religion, not a location. American Christians are Americans, American Muslims are Americans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mtgprox05 View Post

The scenarios posted in the article, (Pearl Harbor, Auschwitz, etc) really sum up my opinions on this.

Only if Muslim means terrorist, German means Nazi, and so on through all the cultural cliches. ( I mean seriously - Bach equals Nazi holocaust? Really? Even a Wagner society I can sort of understand the offense, but not Bach... )

Quote:
Originally Posted by mtgprox05 View Post

It should be a memorial, nothing more.

This I do agree with. I remember the memorial idea was popular early on, but was scrapped in favor of the ginormous skyscraper they currently are planning on building. The land is worth too much; capitalism won out, as always...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Grand Duc View Post

The question is, my dear Sugan; why do they even want to place it there?!

Why not? No more or less tasteful than any other place, really, though I do agree with mtgprox05 that in general a memorial would be more tasteful, but we're not getting that anyway. On this count, a mosque is no more distasteful than a Starbucks, and would likely be more architecturally attractive.
post #20 of 33
5/13/10 at 6:51pm
Interesting opinions.

Some observations:
1) Burling Coat Factory bulding already exists, and is more than likely being bought following the normal capitalistic processes. It is not a new building on some memorial site.That is a much more sensitive issue, and that is why any kind of structure is still missing from ground zero after 9 years.

2)Vast majority of muslims, over the centuries have been apolitical, and perhaps even anti-political where peaceful society has been the end-all and be-all and not some idealistic worldview.

3)This kind of action has much less to do with practicing religion in a normal manner, and a whole lot more with politics/making statements and what not. I don't think it would find much creedence/support with a vast majority of American Muslims simply because most of us want to live in our own world away from the spotlight. Feeling a sense of belonging culturally might not be that high up on the list for most of us as over 95% of American Muslims could count themselves as Immigrants within the last 40-50 years.

4) The organization purportedly going for this project has just as much to do with mainstream Islam as the fanatics, and both devour attention - as opposed to mainstream muslims.

5) We don't live in a perfect world, and never will. Any romantic view of some specific organized religion's past or present is half as far from the truth as that of "organized" opposition to organized religion. Get over the fact that not being a part of an organzied religion somehow makes a society more tolerant or humane. The excesses done by all the organized religions combined throughout history could come nowhere to the excesses committed by breaking away from organized religion that happened after Rennaisance.
post #21 of 33
5/13/10 at 7:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mudassir View Post

Interesting opinions.

Some observations:
1) Burling Coat Factory bulding already exists, and is more than likely being bought following the normal capitalistic processes. It is not a new building on some memorial site.That is a much more sensitive issue, and that is why any kind of structure is still missing from ground zero after 9 years.

2)Vast majority of muslims, over the centuries have been apolitical, and perhaps even anti-political where peaceful society has been the end-all and be-all and not some idealistic worldview.

3)This kind of action has much less to do with practicing religion in a normal manner, and a whole lot more with politics/making statements and what not. I don't think it would find much creedence/support with a vast majority of American Muslims simply because most of us want to live in our own world away from the spotlight. Feeling a sense of belonging culturally might not be that high up on the list for most of us as over 95% of American Muslims could count themselves as Immigrants within the last 40-50 years.

4) The organization purportedly going for this project has just as much to do with mainstream Islam as the fanatics, and both devour attention - as opposed to mainstream muslims.

5) We don't live in a perfect world, and never will. Any romantic view of some specific organized religion's past or present is half as far from the truth as that of "organized" opposition to organized religion. Get over the fact that not being a part of an organzied religion somehow makes a society more tolerant or humane. The excesses done by all the organized religions combined throughout history could come nowhere to the excesses committed by breaking away from organized religion that happened after Rennaisance.

and those excesses continue to this day...

Thank you for your observations sir, I wish you all the freedom in the world to live in your own way. I share you frustration as to why that site stands empty nigh a near decade later.

Even if I had the right to build a cathedral in the middle of Mecca, I would never do so out of respect for those that abide there...

This is an out and out provocation.

"To deny American Muslims their freedoms in their country because you consider their place of worship distasteful is to trample on the very free speech you hold dear. Being less tolerant in the US isn't going to make - for example - Saudi Arabia more tolerant, it will simply make the US a worse place to be for everyone."

This is an example of what Richard Feynman so famously referred to when he said "Keep an open mind, but not so open your brains fall out"

No one is trying to deny "them" their freedoms. They can build their mosque. New York is full of them. THey can speak freely as they like. As far as building or converting a space for use, that is neither a free speech or even a freedom of religion issue. That's a zoning and land use issue.

and as far as that site?

No.

period...

show some respect for others and some self-respect...

This goes over about as well as the Westboro Baptist Church Protesting American Soldier's Funerals...
post #22 of 33
5/13/10 at 7:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by thaifighter View Post

No.

period...

show some respect for others and some self-respect...

I fail to see how a mosque is inherently disrespectful, but then as I elaborated earlier in this thread, I don't equate Muslim with 9/11 terrorist, nor equate Islam with terrorism. If Al-Qaeda was like McDonalds and could set up shop there, that would be distasteful and disrespectful, but terrorist organizations don't tend to work that way...

Now, an argument that anything other than a memorial is distasteful is something I would be more on board with. That ideal being dead, a mosque is no more distasteful than an office block to me.
post #23 of 33
5/13/10 at 7:50pm
tell you what...

the mosque can be built...

as long as I can have a pig farm at the land leading to the entrance...

Really...

just watch where you step!
post #24 of 33
5/13/10 at 8:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indie_Guy View Post

Yes, but how well does the Muslim world tolerate Christian churches and Jewish Synagogues?

It's always a one way street with these people. Free speech for me, but not for thee. I'm done playing their game. Putting a giant mega-mosque at Ground Zero is insult to injury. I hope somehow this can be stopped.

Hmmmm.. as a proud american I'm proud I don't live in a country ruled by Sharia Law so I guess in theory of my personal principles this concept of a mosque near ground zero would be ok. But somehow I still can't wrap my mind around the whole "how the heck could this be appropriate" -ness of the subject brought up
post #25 of 33
5/13/10 at 9:04pm
Interesting news and interesting comments.

>Yes, but how well does the Muslim world tolerate Christian churches and Jewish Synagogues?

Pretty good actually. That's how we can have a jerusalem with all kinds of religious buildings. That's how the Orthodox Patriarchate has been able to exist in Istanbul undisturbed. Simplifying things united by religion has always been dangerous.

>The U.S.A. should start planning to build monolithic Christian Cathedrals in the very heart of Islam. Fair exchange ain't no robbery.

Interesting. Is New York the very heart of Christianity? It's disturbing for me to see such remarks that can be easily made in response to news like this.
Pushing people to extremes. This shouts provocation to me.

The proper action can only be defined by reading people. As it is, I think this will inevitably be a situation where it will be translated as winning or losing for two parties that are hard to name. I'm afraid it's not really possible to avoid this after this point.
It's a lose/lose situation.
post #26 of 33
5/13/10 at 9:19pm
I thought Basenotes was non political /religious ..." Scents sans frontiers" ...how long before this thread gets locked down ........
post #27 of 33
5/13/10 at 9:23pm
saripatates... this country (the US) has a very vocal minority (or at least one HOPES they are a minority, they are at least in my small circle) that "loves to hate" and also "loves to win against those they hate." That is what worries me right now, particularly with a not-so-trustworthy media (of which I fear the NY Post is one of the sensational and "not quite true" fact distributors.) So, while there are those who tend toward the sensational and provocative comments, I think that the truth here is closer that the establishment of such a mosque IS NOT ON GROUND ZERO ...

The comment about monolithic cathedrals, made by AromiErotici is to my mind "typical" of the knee-jerk reaction that those vocal few put forth, based only on its sensationalism and that individual's bias. And is as such completely nonconstructive.

I really would like to see particularly on a site so varied in culture, even if our basis for coming here is fairly hedonistic THINGS THAT SMELL NICE... to see if we could actually set aside those knee-jerk reactions and find a common ground. Who among us does NOT want to live a happy life, enjoy the finer things, enjoy ones' family and friends, and live in peace and health in a pleasant environment?

I dare say none of us wants the opposite of that. I believe that embracing what we all have in common is the thin end of the wedge to real cooperation and understanding... regardless of religious or political beliefs.

(they may say I'm a dreamer... but I'm not the only one... John Lennon)
post #28 of 33
5/13/10 at 9:32pm
Agreeing with Actiasluna on a number of fronts, but most importantly that article's sensationalism. I encourage people to search other, more mainstream news sources - or even the website of The Cordoba Initiative itself - to see that it is in fact a few blocks from the Trade Center was, and not "over" ground zero like the article states.
post #29 of 33
5/13/10 at 9:32pm
I agree with both mystic and actiasluna

I think US of A is -still- such a wonderful concept. The last thing it needs is alienation of its own parts and in turn xenophobia.

I think one good idea could be building a uniting memorial or building on that site. One that has muslim jewish christian and even pastafarian temples for example. Intelligently secular, united, and protective of freedoms.
post #30 of 33
5/13/10 at 10:40pm
To be honest, if anything, the mosque should be sponsored by the city, as it is a clear message that Islam had no part of what happened on 9/11.
That is of course we assume that 9/11 was conducted by "Muslims", which fact proves it wasn't, but that's another topic.

Anyhow, I personally do not see how it is in any way shape or form disrespectful or symbolically offending to build such a building in the spot allocated. I truly believe Islam was one of the biggest victims on that day, including all the innocent people who died tragically.

And since when does a whole community of Muslims, have to pay the price for the supposed few who weren't even from the same country? We should learn from our mistakes and open our hearts and arms to all Americans, whether Muslim or not, we all live in the same culture and pay the same taxes, we should get the same treatment.
post #31 of 33
5/13/10 at 11:00pm
Am I missing something here? Is the mosque being forced upon the city/site? If its illegal by city/state/fed laws to build near that site, surely the authorities will step in...until then lets just refrain from the redneck religious fanaticism ..
post #32 of 33
5/14/10 at 2:00am
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post #33 of 33
5/14/10 at 4:23am
This thread illustrates the reason the politics and religion board was closed.
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Basenotes › Basenotes Forums › General Discussion › Off topic › Dude, what?