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What the Dickens is "dandified frippery" in a fragrance?

post #1 of 27
5/24/10 at 9:42am
Thread Starter 
BTW, Charles Dickens, the English writer, was a dandy--with long, waving hair and brocade waistcoats. (The Comte d'Orsay stood as godfather to one of Dickens' ten children, a son.)

Luca Turin, in his description of Habit Rouge, uses the terms "dandified frippery," and states that the older version (2002 or older?) has more of it.

What constitutes this "dandified frippery" in a scent? A set of notes? Something floral?

My first impression is historical: jasmine or orange blossom.

This may not, however, be the intention of modern marketing.
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post #2 of 27
5/24/10 at 12:02pm
"Frippery" is defined as finery in dress, esp. when showy, gaudy, or the like.

I don't think he's commenting on notes or the scent itself, rather the "personality" of the scent.

I am wearing Beau Cavalier today and indeed am quite dandified.
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post #3 of 27
5/24/10 at 1:42pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by StylinLA View Post

"Frippery" is defined as finery in dress, esp. when showy, gaudy, or the like.

I don't think he's commenting on notes or the scent itself, rather the "personality" of the scent.

I am wearing Beau Cavalier today and indeed am quite dandified.

Thank you, StylinLA. I adore my Beau Cavalier, but use it sparingly, instead splashing on the regular Habit Rouge EDT.

I was thinking of notes we associate with the 19th century: orange blossom, musk, rose, jasmine and lavender. (We *know* who was very fond of his jasmine... )

Today, thinking of the upcoming Arsene Lupin from Guerlain, I am wearing Jolie Madame for its violet/leather!
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post #4 of 27
5/24/10 at 2:42pm
My first thought was orange blossom, musk, jasmine, and a spice note.
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post #5 of 27
5/24/10 at 2:48pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigsly View Post

My first thought was orange blossom, musk, jasmine, and a spice note.

I am reminded of these notes in Mayfair by D.R. Harris. This is an EDT but has some whopping sillage and longevity. This company has a genuine pedigree, unlike some companies:

http://www.drharris.co.uk/product_de...6&detailUID=48
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post #6 of 27
5/24/10 at 2:58pm
The phrase "dandified frippery" seems redundant to me... though perhaps it is better than foppish frippery!
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post #7 of 27
5/24/10 at 4:12pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by odysseusm View Post

The phrase "dandified frippery" seems redundant to me... though perhaps it is better than foppish frippery!

LOL, OdyM! This is wit...I like the alliteration of the latter!
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post #8 of 27
5/24/10 at 4:34pm
That's it! That is how I feel when I wear Habit Rouge Beau Cavalier, I am exemplifying "dandified frippery" and, I love it. Beau Cavalier is definately a dandy choice of olfactory ecoutrement.
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post #9 of 27
5/24/10 at 4:38pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by N_Tesla View Post

That's it! That is how I feel when I wear Habit Rouge Beau Cavalier, I am exemplifying "dandified frippery" and, I love it. Beau Cavalier is definately a dandy choice of olfactory ecoutrement.

I agree that Beau Cavalier seems to be out in the front, to use a horse racing metaphor. Those dandies loved to play the horses!

I adore the more pronounced vanilla in the Cavalier, with the agarwood.
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post #10 of 27
5/24/10 at 4:39pm
What is the point in characterizing the fans of a particular fragrance in such demeaning terms? In French, friperie refers to commerce in old clothes, rags, rubbish, old furniture, etc.

Next, some feckless reviewer will call persons wearing some scent or other "effete and impudent snobs." (BTW, that's the title of an album by a Midwestern noise-rock band called The Cows.)

Frankly, I prefer to think of Habit Rouge as a friandise, a bit of daintiness.
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post #11 of 27
5/24/10 at 4:53pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JaimeB View Post

What is the point in characterizing the fans of a particular fragrance in such demeaning terms? In French, friperie refers to commerce in old clothes, rags, rubbish, old furniture, etc.

Next, some feckless reviewer will call persons wearing some scent or other "effete and impudent snobs." (BTW, that's the title of an album by a Midwestern noise-rock band called The Cows.)

Frankly, I prefer to think of Habit Rouge as a friandise, a bit of daintiness.

LOL, JaimeB! I place the blame squarely on the back of Luca Turin and his Guide! Thank you for the etymology.

I think of "dandyish" as not too ostentatious, but a bit aguicheur--seductive. A man quite aware of his attractiveness on many levels, and not afraid to show off (...just a little bit) his wit, his intelligence or talents, his clothing or his pulchritude.

I could bathe in Habit Rouge, to be honest.
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post #12 of 27
5/24/10 at 5:37pm
I like the term as much as I like HR BC
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post #13 of 27
5/24/10 at 6:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JaimeB View Post

What is the point in characterizing the fans of a particular fragrance in such demeaning terms? In French, friperie refers to commerce in old clothes, rags, rubbish, old furniture, etc.

Next, some feckless reviewer will call persons wearing some scent or other "effete and impudent snobs." (BTW, that's the title of an album by a Midwestern noise-rock band called The Cows.)

Frankly, I prefer to think of Habit Rouge as a friandise, a bit of daintiness.

Great note, Jaime. I sense the background of class clash here ... since frippery has a connotation of gaudy, outre, ostentatious... all purely subjective assessments.
Lovely word, friandise. Et avec un soupcon de frisson, peut-etre?
Everything goes better with frisson.
As for myself, I'm still in search of more feck. What the heck, gotta get more feck.
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post #14 of 27
5/24/10 at 6:27pm
Dear Luca couldn't use the term "SHABBY CHIC" as it's trademarked, I think!

Which means that he may see HR as anachronistic?

(laughs at the very idea. Luca... sound in here?)

Ody... definitely in need of more feck.

We can't be having any fecklessness here, now, can we?
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post #15 of 27
5/24/10 at 7:37pm
Thread Starter 
In the 19th century, there was the true dandy, truly blue-blooded or at least (as with Beau Brummell) enough cash for him to live the lifestyle of leisure and pleasure in pursuit of the four vices: women, horses, drink and gambling. LOL! (I think there ought to be a fifth vice: fragrance. ) The order of preferences of these vices would vary according to the dandy in question.

His lower-class counterpart was the "swell" or the "masher." This fellow (a shop clerk, a green grocer...) attempted the *look* of the dandy but without the bespoke suits, boots and hats, or gold jewels and watches. He wore glass gems and pinchbeck, and wore off-the-peg. (This reminds me of the line from "Trial by Jury," from Gilbert and Sullivan, "...and a ring that looked like a ruby.")

I can see how the lines are blurred these days, but people always associate the *real* dandy with *real* elegance: fine clothing and fine fragrance of the likes of Derby and Mouchoir de Monsieur.

It is good breeding to display a good deal of feck, BTW. LOL!
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post #16 of 27
5/25/10 at 12:43am
I do get "dandified frippery" from mainly two categories of scents: old school citrus-floral pairings as in Le Vainqeur by Rance or most of the ADP colognes

And, also, lavishly beautiful, somewhat almost histrionically "heavy artillery" frags of yesterdays ancestors of powerhouse: the already mentioned Mouchoir de Monsieur, most vintage formulations of several male, unisex and also female Penhaligons, Creed, Floris frags, as well as... of further Guerlains
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post #17 of 27
5/25/10 at 5:52am
Having owned a bottle of Habit Rouge from the 1970s and being a wearer of the current version of HR, I immediately understood what Turin was talking about when he wrote about "dandified frippery." Trying to explain it is harder, though. I think what he meant was that the earlier version of HR smelled overly fussy or too "prim and proper". Although the earlier formulation I had was good, it was extremely powdery and was sweeter than the current version. It had a very "prim and proper" feel to it, compared to the current version, which I find to be much drier and less sweet and powdery.

I don't think Turin was trying to make fun of people who wear powdery or "dandified" fragrances. I think he was just saying that certain fragrances bring to mind images of the Victorian-era dandy. For me fragrances are very visual - when I'm wearing a scent I like, often times certain images come into my mind when I catch a whiff of the scent. Now that the subject has come up, I have to admit that the earlier version of Habit Rouge did in fact make me think of the dandy image of guys like the Scarlet Pimpernel or Beau Brummel! Curzon by GF Trumper and Ungaro II also do that to me.
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post #18 of 27
5/25/10 at 8:08am
I would probably ask N_Tesla , isnt this how he tries to portray himself on Basenotes ?
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post #19 of 27
5/25/10 at 8:10am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by shamu1 View Post

Having owned a bottle of Habit Rouge from the 1970s and being a wearer of the current version of HR, I immediately understood what Turin was talking about when he wrote about "dandified frippery." Trying to explain it is harder, though. I think what he meant was that the earlier version of HR smelled overly fussy or too "prim and proper". Although the earlier formulation I had was good, it was extremely powdery and was sweeter than the current version. It had a very "prim and proper" feel to it, compared to the current version, which I find to be much drier and less sweet and powdery.

I don't think Turin was trying to make fun of people who wear powdery or "dandified" fragrances. I think he was just saying that certain fragrances bring to mind images of the Victorian-era dandy. For me fragrances are very visual - when I'm wearing a scent I like, often times certain images come into my mind when I catch a whiff of the scent. Now that the subject has come up, I have to admit that the earlier version of Habit Rouge did in fact make me think of the dandy image of guys like the Scarlet Pimpernel or Beau Brummel! Curzon by GF Trumper and Ungaro II also do that to me.

I have a bottle from the early 2000s (gold cap) and the scent is a bit deeper, more floral, less citrusy and less leathery. Maybe it's the florals as we know the men in the 19th century were very fond of their florals.

BTW, I can see a character like the Scarlet Pimpernel (BTW, a character created in the early 20th century, yet set in the 1790s) is very much Ancien Regime in his affinities as an Englishman, so I can see floral scents to match his lace jabot and Cadogan hair. OTOH, Beau Brummell despised perfumes and scent of ANY kind, only believing in bathing and clean underlinen to keep a man fresh. The Comte d'Orsay almost two decades later said it was fine and....dandy...for a man to use fragrance.

BTW, the image of a dandy as "prim and proper"...if one reads their biographies...nothing can be farther from the truth. Some of these men were rakehells of the first order--and proud of it!
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post #20 of 27
5/25/10 at 8:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by shamu1 View Post

I don't think Turin was trying to make fun of people who wear powdery or "dandified" fragrances. I think he was just saying that certain fragrances bring to mind images of the Victorian-era dandy.

Not poking fun at all. He ranks HR one of the 10 best scents for men. I just think me meant the earlier formula was bit more old school, especially when contrasted with modern scents.

I have come to love HR, but I can see it's not for everybody. I find the opening of the EdT could be very off putting to a lot of people and while openings are actually fleeting, that's more than enough to chase many away.
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post #21 of 27
5/25/10 at 8:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by shamu1 View Post

I don't think Turin was trying to make fun of people who wear powdery or "dandified" fragrances. I think he was just saying that certain fragrances bring to mind images of the Victorian-era dandy.

Not poking fun at all. He ranks HR one of the 10 best scents for men. I just think me meant the earlier formula was bit more old school, especially when contrasted with modern scents.

I have come to love HR, but I can see it's not for everybody. I find the opening of the EdT could be very off putting to a lot of people and while openings are actually fleeting, that's more than enough to chase many away.
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post #22 of 27
5/25/10 at 8:19am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by StylinLA View Post

Not poking fun at all. He ranks HR one of the 10 best scents for men. I just think me meant the earlier formula was bit more old school, especially when contrasted with modern scents.

I have come to love HR, but I can see it's not for everybody. I find the opening of the EdT could be very off putting to a lot of people and while openings are actually fleeting, that's more than enough to chase many away.

Are you referring to the modern HR EDT or our beloved Beau Cavalier?
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post #23 of 27
5/25/10 at 8:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Primrose View Post

Are you referring to the modern HR EDT or our beloved Beau Cavalier?

Well, both kind of. To me, the EdT in particular is really intense and almost harsh when first applied. But it gets much better.

HRBC is much smoother from start to finish. Turin's review was of the EdT I'm sure. I never tried the older formulation EdT so I can't really judge it. But to my nose, HR in general is a very "different" frag for anyone who has gotten into frags in the last few years. They don't make 'em like that anymore.

I remember rushing out to buy a bottle after reading so much about it and being a little shocked at first. HRBC is what really got me into it.

(BTW Primrose- I've turned into "one of those people" and already bought my backup bottle of BC anticipating the end of the "limited edition." This might be my favorite. At least it is right now.)
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post #24 of 27
5/25/10 at 8:37am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by StylinLA View Post

Well, both kind of. To me, the EdT in particular is really intense and almost harsh when first applied. But it gets much better.

HRBC is much smoother from start to finish. Turin's review was of the EdT I'm sure. I never tried the older formulation EdT so I can't really judge it. But to my nose, HR in general is a very "different" frag for anyone who has gotten into frags in the last few years. They don't make 'em like that anymore.

I remember rushing out to buy a bottle after reading so much about it and being a little shocked at first. HRBC is what really got me into it.

(BTW Primrose- I've turned into "one of those people" and already bought my backup bottle of BC anticipating the end of the "limited edition." This might be my favorite. At least it is right now.)

LOL! StylinLA, what do you think of the Beau Cavalier bottle, BTW? Do you like it or despise it? I like the stirrup design all over the silver bottle. Tacky? Hey, not understated by any stretch, but the dandies of the 1830s liked their jewel-topped canes, bright colours, rings and breastpins.
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post #25 of 27
5/25/10 at 11:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Primrose View Post

BTW, the image of a dandy as "prim and proper"...if one reads their biographies...nothing can be farther from the truth. Some of these men were rakehells of the first order--and proud of it!

I don't doubt what you say about their actual behavior as being true; I don't doubt these guys were big time womanizers and drinkers. However, it seems to me that the 1800s dandy was trying to exude an appearance of being prim and proper. Ascots, breast pins, walking sticks, etc. seem pretty prim and proper to me.
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post #26 of 27
5/25/10 at 11:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Primrose View Post

LOL! StylinLA, what do you think of the Beau Cavalier bottle, BTW? Do you like it or despise it? I like the stirrup design all over the silver bottle. Tacky? Hey, not understated by any stretch, but the dandies of the 1830s liked their jewel-topped canes, bright colours, rings and breastpins.

In photos, it looks a bit tacky. In reality, it's fine. I'm not much of a "bottle" guy. In my pre-Basenote years, I bought many a "pretty bottle" that happend to have a scent in it. Now, you could put any of my faves in a Mason jar and I wouldn't care.
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post #27 of 27
5/25/10 at 11:40am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by shamu1 View Post

I don't doubt what you say about their actual behavior as being true; I don't doubt these guys were big time womanizers and drinkers. However, it seems to me that the 1800s dandy was trying to exude an appearance of being prim and proper. Ascots, breast pins, walking sticks, etc. seem pretty prim and proper to me.

There are two main "schools" of dandyism, both very different:

The Beau Brummell variety (early 19th century): cut in clothing is everything, austerity, no perfume. Sober colours. Clean-shaven and clean linen is all you need.

The Comte d'Orsay variety, known as the "butterfly dandy": cut is important, but also lines and curves. Perfume is essential as clean linen and bathing. Sidewhiskers or a beard (well-groomed) are a must. Bright colours, velvets, brocades, jewellery are OK, too.

This came to an end in the late 1840s, when all men went for dark colours and austerity. A few men effected some fanciful items in their older years, such as Benjamin Disraeli and Charles Dickens.

Beau Brummell detested perfumes of any kind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StylinLA View Post

In photos, it looks a bit tacky. In reality, it's fine. I'm not much of a "bottle" guy. In my pre-Basenote years, I bought many a "pretty bottle" that happend to have a scent in it. Now, you could put any of my faves in a Mason jar and I wouldn't care.

LOL! I love bottles, but you are right--it's the juice. Still, I like the new Derby bee bottle than the original cockroach carapace bottle!
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