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question about a BN transaction" dispute"

post #1 of 20
8/26/10 at 12:41pm
Thread Starter 
Dispute might be too strong a word, amybe more of a disagreement. Wanted to get feedback from experienced users:

Recently purchased a fragrance from another BN'er. Told him my offer was $115 firm. He agreed. Sent the payment through Paypal as goods sold (not gift) as I don't know him and have never dealt with him before. Upon seeing the money in his account he only netted $111, and thinks I should have sent as "gift". I explained that 1) he never specified that in his e-mails and 2) I would not have felt comfortable doing that anyway, as I didn't know him and it could leave me more vulnerable to fraud (in general, not saying he specifically would have ripped me off).

He now feels I should send him the remaining $4 once the package arrives. I disagree.

Wanted to see if perhaps I was unaware of some sort of Basenotes transaction protocol/custom and what the general consensus on this type of situation is.
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post #2 of 20
8/26/10 at 1:05pm
Typically, it's a custom to send money as a "Gift" simply to avoid PayPal's transaction fees.
He probably should have told you about it, but over such a paltry amount, I'd pay the $4 and keep the "Gift" option in mind in the future.
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post #3 of 20
8/26/10 at 1:09pm
If you've said your offer was $115 and you've both agreed, you've agreed for the recipient to receive $115, which in this case they haven't because PayPal have got their paws on a fee. Didn't PayPal ask you if you want to pay the fee when you sent the money ? Even sending as a Gift, it sometimes asks me if I want to pay the fee and other times it doesn't which I can never understand, as I always thought a GIFT payment was fee less. I know $4 is not much to squabble about, but if I was in your shoes I would send it out of courtesy.
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post #4 of 20
8/26/10 at 1:20pm
Thread Starter 
Craig, I would disagree with your $115 point. If I said $115, that meant $115 out of my pocket. And I would think just like in real estate, unless otherwise agreed upon, seller pays all closing costs. If it was agreed upon $115 shipped, it's his discretion if he wants to send it as inexpensively as possible or overnight delievery (much more expensive). Would you think in those situations I should consider my offer $115+ the unexpected. To me it falls under the "cost of doing business" heading.
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post #5 of 20
8/26/10 at 4:47pm
I if had been he, I'd have written to you:
"Ouch!! I cannot believe I forgot to tell a newbie to send the money as a gift! Just for future reference, that's how we do it, so that our full asking price arrives and the sellers are not jeopardized by Paypal.'
And then I'd have hoped that you'd taken the 'cue' to proffer up the cash. And if you hadnot, I'd simply have chosen not do business with you again.

If I had been you, I'd have swallowed my pride, paid him back, and chalked it up to a learning experience.

Why? because we are a community of good graces, generosity to others and sharing. I feel so lucky to have had such lovely transactions here, wit such lovely people. And it would not work otherwise.
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post #6 of 20
8/26/10 at 5:03pm
Thread Starter 
Hillaire,

Thanks for the feedback....shaming won't work on me though, since I have no shame!

It seems pretty unanimous that it is common practice to do so. Can't say I agree it should be expected, especially considering the risk of fraud, but I guess as they say "when in Rome, do as the Romans do". It's never been about the $4, per se. I just want to make sure this is a common consistent practice, because those $4 can add up with a lot of transactions.

For the record, I don't think I need to swallow any pride. I asked specifically to find out if there was a custom I was not aware of. Since there is, I will respect it. If I wasn't trying to be considerate, I would have said tough luck and never asked the question.
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post #7 of 20
8/26/10 at 5:08pm
I would send the $4 out of courtesy.
But then again, if I were the seller, I wouldn't make you pay the $4. After all, you have parted with the requested amount.
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post #8 of 20
8/26/10 at 5:16pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks boosh,

I already e-mailed him saying I will. I am of the same mind as you though. I think it's more of a courtesy than should be expected or to "make amends" as others have suggested.

He seems like a good guy and I think it would be silly to have hard feeling over such a small amount.
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post #9 of 20
8/26/10 at 5:19pm
My view (as someone who has never engaged in a BN transaction) would be that it's the seller's responsibility to explain the terms of the transaction, and that in this case of an honest misunderstanding, he should take the loss and resolve the explain this in the future.

But I also wouldn't care all that much, and I'd probably pay the four dollars. And then I wouldn't deal with that seller again, because apparently I do care _some_, and the experience would leave me unhappy.
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post #10 of 20
8/26/10 at 5:34pm
Force, it seems as though you're reading more into the answers than is there. You asked for opinions and information and were given exactly that. So, why the need to take issue with those who suggested you send the $4 to make things even?

If as you say you "have no shame" I'd say that choosing the gift option with PayPal in future should trouble you not at all...
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post #11 of 20
8/26/10 at 6:07pm
In my opinion it is wrong for the seller to expect any further payment. You paid the stipulated amount on the seller's stated terms.
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post #12 of 20
8/26/10 at 6:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by actiasluna View Post

If as you say you "have no shame" I'd say that choosing the gift option with PayPal in future should trouble you not at all...

Shame has nothing to do with it. If you send payment as a gift and then receive the wrong item, or a misrepresented item, or no item at all, you have no basis to file a dispute with PayPal. To be clear, that is NOT what happened in this case, but there is a risk that some buyers may prefer not to take.
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post #13 of 20
8/26/10 at 6:16pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by actiasluna View Post

Force, it seems as though you're reading more into the answers than is there. You asked for opinions and information and were given exactly that. So, why the need to take issue with those who suggested you send the $4 to make things even?

If as you say you "have no shame" I'd say that choosing the gift option with PayPal in future should trouble you not at all...

First off, this should be squashed as I've already said that I was going to send it out of courtesy and honoring the custom. Not really sure why you feel the need to talk down to me....BUT since you do:

The only comments I "took issue" with were that I disagreed it should be assumed that it was on me to make up the difference of the fees, especially after the fact. There were other posters who agreed with that view so it wasn't just me.
The other was the one that, suggested I was being overly prideful and ignorant ("chalk it up to a learning experience"). There was also the suggest that I was unfit to do business with.

It's not a matter of "shame" that would trouble me in sending the money as gift, just that it is less safe and it's mixing business with personal. While I am sure the large majority of the BNers are great and trustworthy people, even in my searching through posts I came across those who were ripped off by other on here. Perhaps you think I am being a little harsh, but I would argue you might be being naive, especially when dealing with a stranger over the Internet. There is a reason there is a feedback feature - to notify of those who may be less honest or professional than others.
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post #14 of 20
8/26/10 at 6:18pm
Thread Starter 
Thank you PaulSC...you said it better than I could.
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post #15 of 20
8/26/10 at 6:52pm
There have been cases where people with 100% positive feedback (and a number of transactions under their belt) have gone on to rip others off. I wouldn't send payment as a 'gift' and I'd be leery of anyone that *expected* me to do so. Granted, they could ask that I then cover the cost of fees and that would be fine, if it was established up front, but the idea that the default behavior here should be to send payment as a gift is absolutely ridiculous.

I agree with those who say it's the seller's responsibility to list the complete terms of the sale, and that the seller should swallow the $4. I'd be leery of dealing with anyone who was so upset over $4 on a $115 transaction. It seems rather petty, especially when it was their oversight that led to the issue in the first place.
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post #16 of 20
8/26/10 at 7:20pm
I've bought from a BNer who requests that if you pay by PayPal and want to use the "goods purchased" option, you add .30 plus 2.9%. That way, the seller gets the full payment and the buyer pays the fee.

I think this is a good system. I would not be comfortable calling my payment a gift-- one loses the advantage of PayPal protection that way. I'd rather pay the fee and retain PayPal protection for my payment.

The important thing is that it be spelled out in advance. I think if the seller failed to specify his terms, he should not be tacking on the fee now. He should chalk it up to experience.

But to the buyer, I would say, why not be a good guy and offer to split the fee-- $2 each?

Edit: I see the buyer already agreed to pay the fee. Well, the seller can still step up to the plate and take the responsibility for half of it. My suggestion, that's all.
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post #17 of 20
8/26/10 at 8:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SculptureOfSoul View Post

I agree with those who say it's the seller's responsibility to list the complete terms of the sale, and that the seller should swallow the $4. I'd be leery of dealing with anyone who was so upset over $4 on a $115 transaction. It seems rather petty, especially when it was their oversight that led to the issue in the first place.

Yes, absolutely. Communication is key on both parts, and just as ChickenFreak mentioned above: it's just the cost of doing business. As a seller here on Basenotes, I would find it unbecoming to put the buyer in an awkward state by requesting they send the money as a 'gift'. Perhaps after a relationship has been built and a level of trust established through one or more dealings, the buyer can choose to do so at their discretion. I see the PayPal feature as a means of security for the buyer's hard earned cash and the seller's reputation.
But again, I can't stress it enough: COMMUNICATION
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post #18 of 20
8/27/10 at 5:21am
Send the 4 bucks ... it's close to nothing,
and you avoid negative feedback.
I feel embarrest, that he even insists on
getting them. I mean, come on, it's $4!!!

Some people ...

PS. I've always send money as a gift when
buying off BN, I didn't know that was a bad
thing.
One cannot open a disbute, if clicked gift?!
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post #19 of 20
8/27/10 at 11:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Grand Duc View Post

One cannot open a disbute, if clicked gift?![/I]

One can always open a PayPal dispute, you have that right. But if you click "gift" you are indicating that you are transferring money and expect nothing in return. So if you then receive nothing (or the wrong thing), opening a dispute will do you no good. From PP's perspective, the other party is a gift recipient, not a seller, and as such the other party has no obligation to send you anything.
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post #20 of 20
8/27/10 at 11:48am
I've bought from an experienced BN trader before and as a 'noob 1st time buyer', knew nothing about the 'gift' option. But the seller was magnanimous enough about it and absorbed the fee. He conceded that he had not specify the terms clearly from the start. If your version of events is true I must disagree with the seller. Imo to squabble over $4 for a $111 purchase is simply not a smart way to start a business relationship with someone who could potentially be a repeat customer.
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Basenotes › Basenotes Forums › Fragrance Discussion › Just Starting Out › question about a BN transaction" dispute"