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Vintage Guerlain Anomaly: Shalimar

post #1 of 50
9/30/10 at 8:39pm
Thread Starter 

Look again! Did you see it was Shalimar?

Recently I purchased this sealed vintage Guerlain presentation for Shalimar in the bouchon coeur flacon... one reserved in history for only three perfumes: L'Heure Bleue, Fol Arôme and Mitsouko. This unique and rare edition has excited me, as I have never seen or heard of Shalimar being presented in this manner.

I have written a blog piece, with more photos, attempting to determine its vintage:
http://sorceryofscent.blogspot.com/2...-shalimar.html

If anyone can weigh in on this one and offer any additional insights, it would be enormously appreciated.
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post #2 of 50
9/30/10 at 9:16pm
Another family heirloom there!
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post #3 of 50
9/30/10 at 9:17pm
No insights, but that is incredibly beautiful. Congratulations on your purchase!
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post #4 of 50
9/30/10 at 10:11pm
Dimitri- that is a feather in your cap. I have never before seen Shalimar in that bottle- totally amazing ! Congratulations !
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post #5 of 50
9/30/10 at 11:23pm
Is it parfum D?
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post #6 of 50
9/30/10 at 11:46pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks Mimi, JacquesD and Knit_at_Night

Yes, its extrait Mike... very potent and distinguishable through the sealed stopper. I'd like to think of a way to cease the evaporation it has suffered over the years. Its a bit tricky, with the strings and all... perhaps someone can advise?
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post #7 of 50
9/30/10 at 11:59pm
Very nice purchase , congratulations!
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post #8 of 50
10/1/10 at 7:05am
Stunning new purchase Dimmy. It fits like a glove in your beautiful guerlain collection.
But i think you should wear it hihi I couldn`t be satisfied with just looking at it, i would want the smell on me
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post #9 of 50
10/1/10 at 7:18am
Thread Starter 
Thank you castorpollux!

Rick, I will never open this flacon. It is far too precious in its "pristine" state, with hand-tied rope.
Besides, I have adequate vintage Shalimar extrait in reserve to not have the need to open this one.
Also, I can smell this fabulous perfume right through the stopper, and it has perfumed my entire cupboard.
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post #10 of 50
10/1/10 at 7:20am
Dimmy, do they have the same aroma? How is the vintage smell of shalimar parfum?
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post #11 of 50
10/1/10 at 7:28am
Thread Starter 
No, this version is quite unlike others I own (which might suggest to me it is quite old... I mean "older than old").
It is infinitely oriental... ambery, vanillic, and a little 'dirty'. The oldest Shalimar extrait that I have besides this, is from the 50s-60s. It does not possess this deeper, spicier character.
I love Shalimar pretty much in any of her variations, but this one is verrrry thick and honeyed.
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post #12 of 50
10/1/10 at 8:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorcery of Scent View Post

Thank you castorpollux!

Rick, I will never open this flacon. It is far too precious in its "pristine" state, with hand-tied rope.
Besides, I have adequate vintage Shalimar extrait in reserve to not have the need to open this one.
Also, I can smell this fabulous perfume right through the stopper, and it has perfumed my entire cupboard.

Definitely, don't open it, Dimi! It's an absolute rarity and a jewel !
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post #13 of 50
10/1/10 at 8:18am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mimi Gardenia View Post

Definitely, don't open it, Dimi! It's an absolute rarity and a jewel !

Oh I definitely won't Mimi! Though the evaporation is concerning me. Has anyone ever given any advice on how to prevent further evaporation form an existing bottle?
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post #14 of 50
10/1/10 at 8:34am
how about some clear wax? this is not advice, just an idea.
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post #15 of 50
10/1/10 at 8:41am
I tried searching for an answer Dimitri but I can't come up with anything . Perhaps Mr. G can help.

Darkdreams - clear wax is an option I would consider too ...just thinking about what I would do in this situation ..knowing me..I would melt clear wax and apply it with a small paintbrush to the area where bottle lip meets stopper.

But , on the other hand , one would have to be careful not to get any wax on the 'thread' or get excess wax elsewhere (wouldn't want to lessen the value of this rare piece . )

So the question is ...how to stop evaporation without tampering with this bottle in its fine condition.Now I'm talking to myself.... *LOL*
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post #16 of 50
10/1/10 at 8:48am
Dimitri: There is a direct correlation between evaporation rate and temperature, so refrigerating the bottle at 10 degrees C. will slow the process down significantly. It is likely that the bottle was never under refrigeration thus causing the amount of evaporation shown in your picture over time. The other alternative might be to seal the bottle in a glass container and replace the oxygen with gas that will minimize evaporization. Congratulations on the purchase.
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post #17 of 50
10/1/10 at 8:52am
Great info , N_Tesla ! I worry that refrigeration will cause condensation ( damaging the label and paper ) should Dimitri ever remove the bottle from the fridge especially during hot months of the year...what are your thoughts ?
The 2nd idea..... like 'vacuum packing ?'
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post #18 of 50
10/1/10 at 8:58am
There is a possibility of damage to labels and boxes in the old conventional refrigerators, but in the frost free types it is less likely, so my fragrance refrigerators are all frost free. Also, minimizing the time the door is open helps. The problem with vacuum packaging is that the gas in the bottle will seek equilibrium and possibly be sucked out of the bottle. A good seal on the bottle and refrigeration is the economically feasible method of storage IMO.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Mimi Gardenia View Post

Great info , N_Tesla ! I worry that refrigeration will cause condensation ( damaging the label and paper ) should Dimitri ever remove the bottle from the fridge especially during hot months of the year...what are your thoughts ?
The 2nd idea..... like 'vacuum packing ?'
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post #19 of 50
10/1/10 at 8:59am
Thread Starter 
These are all very sound ideas... I have thought about shrink-wrapping or vacuum-sealing, but that would just look peculiar. Refrigeration also crossed my mind, but as you said Mimi, it will condensate quickly if removed in the hot Perth climate. I also considered the wax idea, though it can be a little hit and miss, and would hate to get any on the label etc. I also thought of applying blu tac or modelling clay around the neck of the bottle too, but that would not prevent air passing through as it is ultimately porous. I'm not entirely sure now. N_Tesla, perhaps your idea of sealing it in some receptacle and removing the oxygen is worth more thought.

Or perhaps I ought to email L'Osmothèque in Versailles (or a similar institution) for advice.
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post #20 of 50
10/1/10 at 9:01am
I think emailing L'Osmotheque would be a good way to go especially with a special bottle like this Dimitri- I wonder if L'Osmotheque even have one like it !
And perhaps Octavian Coifan would have ideas too .
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post #21 of 50
10/1/10 at 9:10am
Just gorgeous Dimi! You've got some really rare Guerlain presentations now. I will control my envy and just enjoy the fact that these gems exist and that they belong to someone who has passion and love for it.
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post #22 of 50
10/1/10 at 9:13am
Dimitri,

I emailed Guerlain store manager in Vegas. That Guerlain Rep. will be there this weekend. I sent her a link to your blog so she can see it. Hopefully they will have something for me Sunday. All I can say is you get the best bottles and I am so Jealous!


Cheers!
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post #23 of 50
10/1/10 at 9:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gojira View Post

All I can say is you get the best bottles and I am so Jealous!

+1, but I'm not really a bottle collector so I would just open everything that came my way and ruin the presentation... It's better that they go to someone who spares them.
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post #24 of 50
10/1/10 at 9:32am
It just his classic flacons that I like. I am with you, I would ruin it. To me Guerlain has always had the best looking Flacons. It could be I just like Art deco.
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post #25 of 50
10/1/10 at 9:44am
Demitir: Yes, L'Osmothèque in Versailles is the best source that I have found in matters of fragrance consevation. Please let us know what they suggest. You might also check with the biology dept. at your local college about implimenting whatever L'Osmothèque suggests.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorcery of Scent View Post

These are all very sound ideas... I have thought about shrink-wrapping or vacuum-sealing, but that would just look peculiar. Refrigeration also crossed my mind, but as you said Mimi, it will condensate quickly if removed in the hot Perth climate. I also considered the wax idea, though it can be a little hit and miss, and would hate to get any on the label etc. I also thought of applying blu tac or modelling clay around the neck of the bottle too, but that would not prevent air passing through as it is ultimately porous. I'm not entirely sure now. N_Tesla, perhaps your idea of sealing it in some receptacle and removing the oxygen is worth more thought.

Or perhaps I ought to email L'Osmothèque in Versailles (or a similar institution) for advice.
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post #26 of 50
10/1/10 at 10:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tott View Post

+1, but I'm not really a bottle collector so I would just open everything that came my way and ruin the presentation... It's better that they go to someone who spares them.

I think just like tott.
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post #27 of 50
10/2/10 at 5:03am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. G View Post

Just gorgeous Dimi! You've got some really rare Guerlain presentations now. I will control my envy and just enjoy the fact that these gems exist and that they belong to someone who has passion and love for it.

Thank you Mr. G. I owe much of this to you, and your glowing words for this house.
I think once the virus gets in your system, it can never be shaken.
You once said to me that every Guerlain collector has an enviable collection... and yours is indeed is the yardstick against which all others are measured!
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post #28 of 50
10/2/10 at 6:33am
Dimitri,

I got a message from Jorganne Magness Manager of the Guerlain Boutique in Vegas. She sent your picture of the bottle to that Guerlain Rep, she was still in Paris. I guess she has some info. for you. Once I get the info Sunday, I'll try and get online and send it to you.

Cheers!
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post #29 of 50
10/2/10 at 7:20am
Thread Starter 
Oh, how interesting Gojira, thank you
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post #30 of 50
10/2/10 at 7:39am
I hope its worth it once I get it. I don't want to disappoint. I leave for the airport in a hour. I forgot when I was in Vegas 3 weeks ago, Jorganne showed me a picture of even more expensive exclusive. I will see if I can get some information on that. It was a really interesting bottle and was it expensive, I think she said it was 27,000.

Cheers!
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post #31 of 50
10/2/10 at 11:27am
This is absolutely stunning and I really dont know how you do that Dimi.

Match up with totts chanels and MrG and you'd have set the milestone and you collections will never be matched...


Seriously, any advice on where to look for ancient Guerlains?
It's a shame flee markets arent what they used to be anymore...
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post #32 of 50
10/2/10 at 1:51pm
I sincerely hope it's the real deal, esp since historically the bouchon coeur flacon was reserved for only three perfumes: L'Heure Bleue, Fol Arôme and Mitsouko.

I don't mean to sound so skeptical but there is real opportunity here to make some nice $$$ from passionate collectors. After all diehard collectors are not only willing to bid crazy prices for rare vintages, they are also highly unlikely to tamper with the packaging, the bottle nor the juice. Time to bring in some 'forensics' experts, perhaps? I'm curious - is there a scientific way of ascertaining the age of the rope, the seal, the bottle and label?
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post #33 of 50
10/2/10 at 5:43pm
Thread Starter 
I was a little skeptical at first too Diamondflame, but I did my research before making this purchase. As my linked blog article states, it has since been authenticated by Christie Mayer Lefkowith and Genevieve Fontan; two published perfume historians, the latter of whom has specialised in the parfums of Bourjeois, Nina Ricci and Guerlain. My article also goes on to suggest why it may have been presented in this manner.
The rope, bottle, packaging are all vintage, and the paper label on the base also suggests it is a bona fide bottle. If someone had intended to make a lump of cash selling this item to me, then I would have paid more. A LOT more than I did. This was not an auction sale either. It was purchased outright from a person who obviously had no clear idea of its value, both historical and monetary.

My issue is not with regard to its genuineness, but rather its exact age.

@ Timaru: thank you
The internet is your best tool, as is a great deal of patience.
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post #34 of 50
10/2/10 at 6:38pm
I am very happy this bottle has gone to you, Dimitri because you really truly love ,appreciate vintage perfume ,the bottles,the houses, the history . A great custodian of this rarity .
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post #35 of 50
10/2/10 at 7:13pm
It's so lovely...and I'm so envious!

I'm also certain it's worth a lot to many many collectors. The juice looks like it's EDT or vintage cologne, though. '90s parfum also has the same hue.
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post #36 of 50
10/2/10 at 7:27pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks Dom.
Its extrait, as mentioned in post no. 6.

Thanks.
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post #37 of 50
10/2/10 at 8:45pm
It appears that this is not as unusual a bottling that we all thought. Apparently there was at least one other run of Shalimar in this bottle named the Shalimar Yellow Gold spcecial edition. Click below to see the picture of Shalimar in this kind of bottle. This, of course, does not detract from the rarity of the item, which is quite a wonderful find. A search on google image under vintage Shalimar reveals many different bottling styles for Shalimar including at least the one Yellow Gold Limited Edition, which appears to be somewhat recent and not in extrait.

http://www.fragrantica.com/perfume/G...tion-4861.html
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post #38 of 50
10/2/10 at 8:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by N_Tesla View Post

It appears that this is not as unusual a bottling that we all thought. Apparently there was another run of Shalimar in this bottle named the Shalimar Yellow Gold spcecial edition. Click below to see the picture of Shalimar in this kind of bottle.

http://www.fragrantica.com/perfume/G...tion-4861.html

Seeing so many variations of the flacons gives me an urge to try & seek an example of all of them

Yesterday, I took another step & purchased this 'Golden Sixties' teardrop bottle( 8 - 8.5 oz I believe,coz the seller says it's 6 3/4 inches tall) for $55:


Asking price on listing yesterday was $79.99, but I offered $45 half-heartedly, thinking the seller would probably ignore it. But after some hours, he countered with $55. I dallied and debated whether to whittle it down to $50, but decided to just accept the offer.

When it arrives safely, I would have finally completed my collection of EDC, EDT, EDP, parfum & extrait of this classic.
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post #39 of 50
10/2/10 at 11:01pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by N_Tesla View Post

It appears that this is not as unusual a bottling that we all thought. Apparently there was at least one other run of Shalimar in this bottle named the Shalimar Yellow Gold spcecial edition. Click below to see the picture of Shalimar in this kind of bottle. This, of course, does not detract from the rarity of the item, which is quite a wonderful find. A search on google image under vintage Shalimar reveals many different bottling styles for Shalimar including at least the one Yellow Gold Limited Edition, which appears to be somewhat recent and not in extrait.

http://www.fragrantica.com/perfume/G...tion-4861.html

Yes N_Tesla, this was a very recent 2008 Xmas release. I made mention of this in the comments of my blog piece also.
It was launched with EDT versions of L'Instant Magic and Insolence.
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post #40 of 50
10/3/10 at 4:50pm
Dimitri,

I tallked to Marie Line from Guerlain today. She is shocked by the size of it. She didn't have whole lot of information about it, but she said she will research it and ask Jean Paul Guerlain. She can't believe its 80ml. I sent her a link to your website and ask her to email you about it.

Time for me to go play some poker. As I smell Wild Amber by Jean Paul and its one of kind,It cost 20,000. AWESOME is what I smell right now!

Cheers!
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post #41 of 50
10/3/10 at 5:16pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks Gojira.
In terms of the volume of the flacon, there is no marking on the bottle or box to suggest this. Instead, I have used the Michele Atlas / Alain Monniot printed Guerlain resource to determine its capacity. It stands 11.8cm tall (almost 5 inches), and has the larger Ø 3.4cm label. This suggests the volume is 80ml.
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post #42 of 50
10/3/10 at 10:01pm
Ok, that's cleared up. She thinks it might be pre war for the date. She didn't want to be quoted on it. She was sure she could date it once she got back to Paris. She also said it might have been a special order for someone. One more thing Jean Paul is coming to Vegas in March.

Cheers!
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post #43 of 50
10/3/10 at 10:30pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gojira View Post

She thinks it might be pre war for the date.

Thats precisely what I had surmised also. Thanks.
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post #44 of 50
10/3/10 at 10:48pm
Your Avatar, well seen one like that and it was Gold and Diamonds. Makes that one look second hand. Let me know if she gets in touch. I gave her your website address so she could show Jean Paul Guerlain.

Cheers!
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post #45 of 50
10/4/10 at 5:24am
Waw!
What a find! And a great photo too. Really enjoyed this post.
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post #46 of 50
10/4/10 at 7:17am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FrouFrou View Post

Waw!
What a find! And a great photo too. Really enjoyed this post.

Thank you FrouFrou!
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post #47 of 50
10/4/10 at 8:23pm
Nice, very nice Dimi!
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post #48 of 50
11/11/10 at 7:44pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by N_Tesla View Post

L'Osmothèque in Versailles is the best source that I have found in matters of fragrance consevation. Please let us know what they suggest.

Well, 5 weeks on, would you believe that despite 2 or 3 attempts to contact L'Osmotheque, I have never garnered a response of any kind?

The sad thing is, whilst I ADORE this flacon, I had been considering - for the correct conservation of this historical piece - to actually donate it to their collections. However, in light of their utter disregard for my correspondence, it is unlikely I would entertain such a thought again.
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post #49 of 50
11/11/10 at 10:09pm
Sorcery of Scent; Sorry to hear about L'Osmotheque's lack of response to your queries. The research I did revealed that the ideal temperature for non citrus scents is 10 degrees C. whilst citrus scents were stored at 8 degrees C. I keep mine in a frost free refrigerator at 10 degrees C. I hope that is of some help.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorcery of Scent View Post

Well, 5 weeks on, would you believe that despite 2 or 3 attempts to contact L'Osmotheque, I have never garnered a response of any kind?

The sad thing is, whilst I ADORE this flacon, I had been considering - for the correct conservation of this historical piece - to actually donate it to their collections. However, in light of their utter disregard for my correspondence, it is unlikely I would entertain such a thought again.
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post #50 of 50
11/11/10 at 10:41pm
Thread Starter 
Thank you N_Tesla... I think I will heed your advice.

many thanks,
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