Basenotes involved in Capitalistic fragrance marketing???

The moderators may have thought it might be easier to find what you look for if the discussions are divided into "male" and "female" discussions. If I want to post a thread about Tom Fords Tobacco Vanille (marked as a masculine scent) I dont post it in the female discussion, simple because nearly no women wear it and because its a strong masculine fragrance. But the simplicity of finding what youre searching for might be the main reason.

The main reason is the history of Basenotes, which began as a forum for discussing mens fragrance. I'm personally in favor of merging the two boards.

Again, men may need to get mainly male perspectives on scents, as much as the ladies may require female perspectives. Its not about the scents but the discussants. In a genderless board it may be a bit awkward having to politely say "ladies need not respond".

That was the exact same question I asked myself when I first join BN. I'm also in favor of a merger.

I think the idea of merging has been brought up before and members didn't want it.

Well, I guess even Basenoters have fragrance-related experiences ample and diversified enough to know that most frags are genderless and that gender-based segregation of frags indeed is mainly an issue of marketing, I guess the whole outline of the site is designed like this on grounds of better and faster accessibility

I don't agree with Perfaddict's view on this question. Why, for instance, would a lady's perspective on Tobacco Vanille be less interesting for a male reader ? In what circumstances would it be pertinent to say "ladies need not respond" ? I'd be interested in having any opinion based on a member's experience or aesthetic judgement. Furthermore, as a man interested in perfumes, I find female perfumes as interesting as male perfumes. Many masculines owe something to Shalimar or Vol de nuit, for instance. One doesn't have to wear a perfume (if it is too much in the "other sex" category) to appreciate it, to discuss it, or to be interested in other members' opinions, irrespective of their sex.

I think it would be preferable to avoid creating an "old boy's club" atmosphere (or whatever the female equivalent might be) when we can all learn from one another.

Just an afterthought--did you also post this on the Female Board?

Maybe it's time for a good old poll about the subject?

Your point, jlouismi, is valid. I too would be in favor of merging the two or splitting them by other criteria for more user-friendliness. I have commented in the ladies' forum when a topic I am interested in comes up there. Sometimes I find it stupid to consider where to post it for "strategic reasons", because I usually don't like to post it twice.

Can someone please help me understand how dividing the forum into male/female discussions is considered capitalistic ?

I agree with this view as well. However, i have never tried Creed's Bois du Portugal and am interested in it. Regardless of our personal views and ideals i also realise certain facts of life, and would naturally put BdP questions to men who, whether one thinks so or not, use BdP more. A look at my wardrobe will show i have no problem wearing frags marketed to women. I am a man and sometimes need male perspectives on life issues and frags, to me, are that important. I know to ask the ladies when i need a female perspective. The FFD board is just a known click away.

The OP's question may have been tongue-in-cheek but it obviously raises a pertinent issue.

I get your point Perfaddict. I'd just add that in a merged forum, you could see the gender of the members who responded to your BdP question so there would be no difficulty with getting both women's and men's perspectives at the same time.

It's all about marketing. Though, do note:

I actually like it better this way, not because I'm a fan of sorting people but I am a fan of a well-organised forum that enables me to quickly find the threads I'm looking for.
It really isnt about genders to me, it's about perspectives (guys might want to hear guys oppinion OR guys might want to hear oppinions on male targeted frags which will obviously get more answers from men than women).

I mean it isnt exactly like it's forbidden to browse the females board and you can post just as easily over there as here. A lot of us already do that (Mimi and i odnt know how many guys etc).

It's just handy for knowing where to look without having to browse through all threads which leads me to another factor I think speaks against merging. Sheer size of the board. I dont know how many threads are started every day (SMM, any data? ) but I already miss a great deal of them because I overlook them while scrolling over hundreds of threads.

For me it is easier to survey everything with the two boards and hereby it's easier to track down the threads that catch my interest (besides all the other threads i still read ).

Just my two cents, I would certainly be happy to share with the ladies, too, I just think it's slightly more practical the way it is.




PS:
Aw, it just occured to me, I really rather think of the whole thing as
'Male/female TARGETED fragrance discussion' (obviously plus some other discussions but you get the point) and that's why I dont think merging is neccessary.

Fragrances are genderless to a tiny minority of the population.

Despite all the hype about them being genderless, check out the wardrobes of most people here. Most males, including those hyping the genderless proposition, have masculine scents or masculine scents and a limited range of feminine scents that either border on unisex, or have something supposedly artistic about them (i.e. not many Brittany Spears or Sara Jessica Parker type fragrances to be found among their collections).

Very few are the males here who have half feminine and half masculine wardrobes.

The forums would not function optimally or be as much liked and used as they are, if run according to minority opinions.
Renato

Agree

The Mens forum is "For the discussion of men's fragrances, and fragrances worn by men," and similarly the Womens forum is "For the discussion of women's fragrances, and fragrances worn by women." These designations have nothing to do with the gender of the participants, and it would be a shame if anyone felt excluded on that basis.

You also have to remember that there are some cultural-ish differences between the male and female boards. Not sure how important that might be, but it's something to keep in mind.

Also, I agree with Renato's point that most people, overall, do rely on marketed gender specifications. Many of us here already have detailed knowledge of most scents that come up commonly, and those of who are "in the know" on this subject might not be affected by a merger much. However, such an action might drive potential new members away, due to lack of logical organization and a basic frame of reference.

I'm for merging the boards, as many women post over here, and many men post over there ( including myself ), and there is really no need to filter one or another gender's input out.

While I agree that the concept of fragrance as genderless hasn't spread far beyond niche perfumery and fragrance aficionados, Basenoters on the whole tend to discuss fragrances of all kinds; it would be cool if the boards reflected that.

I see no reason why there couldn't be a 'general' or 'open' forum for both but I kind of like the two different forums. It makes it easier for me to find what I'm looking for. I hop over to the female forum and read if I feel the need to get my fill of feminine input on frags.

On a side note would the female counter part to the 'old boy's club' be the 'young girls club'? Which sounds a whole lot more interesting if you ask me!

Actually, separating the two recognizes that men and women themselves are different. A merge has been brought up many times, and most often the women are the ones who decline proposition. The FFD is smaller, calmer, and more chit-chatty. If you read our SotD threads for about a week, or on any day that someone announces a personal event (children starting school, birthday, or just feeling under the weather), you'll see what I mean. Many women seeking more dynamic discourse read and post to the men's board; some men who enjoy our tea and biscuits atmosphere hang out at the FFD. For the record, I'm strongly in favor of keeping them separate. We have far fewer active threads, and we're just not interested in adding a half dozen Pure Malt threads to wade thru, or waging Creed wars.

Occasionally I like having separate boards (as when the inevitable- "name the ten best" or "my scent kicks your scent's butt" thread is posted on the men's forum) but generally I feel it is a waste of time to have to jump back and forth. I enjoy reading all perspectives, and as much as I realize that some folks will remain firm in their conviction that they can not wear anything marketed to the opposite sex, I am still interested in the opposite sex's opinions on the scent itself (quality, notes).

I don't see why most of the threads- currently on separate boards (today I wore/bought/sniffed and threads about meet-ups) could not be combined. It would save a lot of cross-posting.

I think merging would just create alot of work, chaos, headaches, and simply require much more time and effort than to just have a male and female fragrance discussion. There are gender differences in many, many fragrances. Yes they can be worn by both genders, its just way easier to having this massive uni-discussion. It could get overwhelming fast

Something similar to this was done once. Unfortunately, I can't find the thread that contained those 'yay' and 'nay' posts, but I found a post in another thread where I referred to it:

http://www.basenotes.net/threads/215...ens-the-ladies

The above thread also discusses merging the boards. In my post there, I go into more detail about why I'm against a merge. The problem I have with a poll is that women prefer separate boards, and men don't or don't care as much, but there are far more men than women on BN. In looking at the Basenotes Forums main page, I see there are 249 men viewing the MFD and 48 women viewing the FFD. Using these numbers, say 60% of men and 20% of women favor the merged board. That's 159 votes for and 138 against. Clearly the majority of total members are in favor of a merge, but 80% of the women here would be forced into a situation they don't want. Many of us would probably give up and leave (head over to the Perfumes of Life forums), and then BN would be what it was in the beginning-- a men's forums with a scant handful of women posting here and there.

New idea - how about just having a "general fragrance discussion" for those who just want to talk fragrance, without aiming things at either gender, but leaving the male and female boards intact?

I'd really love that kind of place; a neutral gathering place to chat about fragrance in general, without the whole man/woman/gender thing coming up. Right now the closest we have to that is the Fragrance Industry board ( which I daresay, has a generally more in-depth level of discourse than the other boards' typical fare ), but it would be cool to have a place where we can discuss actual fragrances, too.

Here's my vote:

Merge the male and female boards into one fragrance discussion section, but continue the tradition of separate SotD threads.

Word. And I wouldnt want anything to potentially spoil that "tea and biscuits" atmosphere yet still I enjoy the occasional CW-GIT-Chez raving.



The cross posting actually is the only bit bothering me but I just have the FFD and the MFD right beside each other as favs in my toolbar and browse them simultaneously in two tabs if I'm on. Works like a charm

Foreign concept to many, right?!

I like 'em better the way they are. It's already a bit surreal having a place for a bunch of dudes to get together to talk about cologne amongst themselves, with the ladies just a stone's throw away. Gotta keep that, I say.

I do not think that the male and female boards should be merged.

My reasoning behind this is because on the male board, there are alot more threads. And once a thread is on the second page, it tends to be forgotten about ( with a few exceptions). Its hard to maintain quality threads and long threads like that where we learn more.

I also do not think anyone who enjoys the female board should have to go through all the junk on the male board. And yes, there is alot of junk.

This was the idea for the Fragrance Industry Board, but I just couldn't think of a better name for it. I'm more than happy to rename, or create an alternative.

If you go to fragrantica.com's non-gender boards you can see what the problem is, which is that it's almost all women. They usually don't say what the frag in question is in the title, so you have to click on the post to see that it's a women's frag. Bascially, if you don't separate, you get too little discussion of men's frags and too much of women's. I wear women's frags often, so I can go to MUA, the BN women's forum, or fragrantica for that. However, I want a place where I know almost all threads will be about men's or unisex frags so that I don't have to do too much searching around. So, it's more about ease of use than it is about marketing, at least for me.

I'd love just a "General Fragrance Discussion" kind of place, a discuss-anything place for fragrance that wasn't segregated into anything specific, if that woud be possible and some other members supported it. That way everyone gets to keep their boards but there's also a place to address EVERYONE if there's no specific gender or category we're aiming for, just people wanting to talk about fragrance.

Thanks very much for responding to my comment Grant!

OK, longer response now:

Ten years ago, when the site started, the site was about men's fragrance and grooming. It was what I knew about, so that's what I made a website about. All the discussion was hosted at an email mailing list called eGroups, which got bought by Yahoo. We stayed there until about 2003, when I decided I would like to have the discussion hosted on the main site. At that time, we got the same amount of posts in a month, that we do in a day now.

When we moved to a Bulletin Board system (like we're on now), There was a Mens Fragrance Board, a Mens Grooming Board, and an Off Topic board. The Market Place system was already hosted on the same bulletin board and had been for a year or so.

* * *

In 2004, I made the decision to downplay the 'grooming' side of things -as I'd lost interest -- and cover female fragrances too. Though the site was mainly men, we had a few hardcore ladies (hello Tigrushka et al) who used to come and 'hang out' here. Back then, if you wanted to discuss women's fragrances you had to either go to Make Up Alley - or - Perfume of Life (previously known as the Long Lost Perfume Chat Club, and also hosted at Yahoo). Basenotes had become known as the place for men to discuss fragrance, so just making the men's board 'all fragrances' would mean that the women's discussion would get lost, and they would go elsewhere.

The boards generally worked fine, but it became apparent that some topic weren't gender related, and were about fragrance in general. To cover this, I opened the Fragrance Industry Board. However, this mainly got used for stuff specifically to do with the industry. In hindsight, it should have been called the General Fragrance Board (or something like that)

* * *

So the proposal - merge the male and female boards together.

Merging the two together would mean that this combined fragrance board would be 70% men's fragrance and 30% womens fragrance. The female fragrance discussion would be pushed down and you will find this time in a year it will be 90% / 10%

Contrary to popular belief - the boards aren't for the discussion of male and female fragrances (despite the names). Many people here wear fragrances from brands that don't specify pour homme or femme or wouldn't bat an eyelid at wearing a scent from the 'wrong' gender. The boards are for discussion from the viewpoint of a male or female, so if you're a guy who is interested in wearing Mitsouko and what to see what other guys think , you can.

* * *

We have a few issues with the boards at the moment.

The first being that the Men's Fragrance Board is seen as a general dumping ground. People see it has the most threads/eyeballs and post in here regardless. Case in point. This thread has nothing to do with men's fragrance, yet it's been posted here (I'm not calling out the OP - this happens a lot, and it's just an example that's nearby). Similarly - many threads such as 'natural vs synthetic' etc aren't men's fragrance discussion either, and would more correctly be placed in the Fragrance Industry Discussion / General Fragrance Board.

Maybe a solution is to hide the '234 viewing' and '234400 posts' statistics, so that when people come to post, they look at the board most suited. I (and mods) probably need to be more proactive in moving non men's threads.

* * *

Things to think about, while we are on the subject

Is a merger a good idea, or will it change what people come to the boards for?

Would a renamed 'Fragrance Industry' board, with active moderation in moving threads into it be beneficial?


Interested in your thoughts

Pleasure - I'm coming round to the thinking that renaming that board Fragrance Industry and General Fragrance Discussion

What Renato said!

Thank you, Grant, for the consideration of a new name for the general discussion category.

I think that since scents these days are marketed with a gender in mind, it is easier to categorise according to the gender designated.

I know many of us on this board don't care about this marketing, but it helps to organise the discussion of the various scents.

As for me, an unabashed gender-bender for fragrance, I am against a merger. I think for the purposes of discussion, the gender classifications--relative as they are--are helpful.

Right, it's about focusing on frags marketed to men - that is what makes the men's forum unique, and if you change it, you will be just like MUA or Fragrantica's frag boards, which I rarely visit.

Great read Grant, albeit not meant as such.

I agree that a mender is not a good idea,
renaming the FI to something less "professional" might lower hesitations to go there and yes,
moving threads should be increased!

I dont know about hiding viewers/posts, though, after all for newcomers and lurkers that aren't as active as some other users it's still a reference where there's the most to browse through and which parts are more active than others.

Gender separation has nothing to do with capitalism. Some of the most primative, pre-capitalist social structures have strict separation of gender. Now, if you want to have a discussion on gender, that's fine. Just don't confuse political structures and gender issues.

I think I like the overflow of topics beyond simply men and fragrance in men's fragrance. I have posted in other forums like single note...you get no or little response. In the men's forum, people are happy to respond. I don't think most people go to any other topic.

That's interesting- would it imply that a lot of members look at the men's forum only?

Yes - that tends to be the case, which is why about 20% of that board are posts that aren't specifically about men's fragrance. I'm about to shift them to the newly renamed Fragrance Industry and General Fragrance Discussion, so I'm expecting some umbrage

Quick work! Thanks Grant.

I don't really consider myself old school when it comes to fragrance but I'm probably more old school that I thought.....It is very difficult for me to buy into this idea of fragrance being genderless!!! I can't see Women wearing Aramis, Polo, Drakkar, Armani Pour Homme or any of the powerhouse fragrances.....Lui, Hombre, Pour Homme, For Men, For Him, Hei.....Come on.....who are why trying to kid.....I'm fine with any direction that Basenotes takes.....I'm in the game and something like this is not a big issue with me.....I'm just more old school than I thought.....Well at 51 I guess that's ok.....Gary

From Grant/administator: "The boards are for discussion from the viewpoint of a male or female, so if you're a guy who is interested in wearing Mitsouko and what to see what other guys think , you can."

I see there is a new attempt at keeping the topics pure for each category. So I understand the new general fragrance category. I am still confused about the men's/women's section. Grant seems to indicate it's not so much men's frags and women's frags, but a place for men or women to each talk about frags. Yet, even after the change I still see women posting in the men's room and vice versa. So either I misunderstood what Grant is saying or only some "purity" is being pursued. I tend to be a rule follower, but I first have to understand the rules.

I like having separate men's and women's boards, but I never hesitate to contribute to a thread in the men's area if I feel like I have something useful to add, and I would hope the men would feel the same about posting on the women's board.

Never mind "popular belief" -- the official board descriptions, which I always assumed you wrote, say exactly what you're denying here. Should I henceforth feel discouraged from posting in the women's forum?

I can't find where statistics such as these are reported. I only see a total number of viewers for each forum, with no breakdown by gender.

Just because of the dichotomy of the fragrance discussion board that ostensibly splits the debate on the basis of the sex a particular fragrance is being marketed toward, is not a reason enough to suggest that Basenotes is actually contributing towards 'capitalistic marketing'.

Even though there are a large number of patrons who completely disregard with impunity, the boundaries of 'perfume marketing based on sex', there is an equally important group that does not transgress these boundaries. I think the separation of the fragrance discussion board gives us the liberty to choose and participate in discussions that we feel is pertinent to our interests.

Personally I wear a lot of fragrances that are typically marketed towards women, yet I hardly ever visit the female discussion board to read or contribute towards any debate relating to that fragrance. More often than not, I am able to find relevant information on the Male Fragrance discussion board even for fragrances that are not marketed as 'male scents. Some may accuse that this may result in duplicity but then I feel the comments in the MfB are male centric and therefore more relevant for me.

Even though I wear a lot of female fragrances, this group still is a minor part of my fragrance wardrobe. Typically I still largely wear scents marketed primarily towards men. Merging the board will mean that I'd have to work harder to look for threads that are aligned with my interests. Sometimes I do tend to scuttle towards the Female discussion board when I don't see anything of interest on the MfD (thanks to the endless Creed authenticity or Pure Malt super powers threads), I usually get out of there within a minute or so. It's not that the conversation there is not interesting. It's just that the conversation is not of 'my interest' as it is majorly bent towards female scents that I am not inclined towards.

The mods really have their work cut out for them now. The creation of a General Discussion board may not stop general discussions still being posted here on the MFD board (cases in point - multiple threads on same topic, increasingly constant moving of threads, etc). Keeping track of said general discussions is only going to get a bit more confusing. I write this considering the business case of a decision point, not just the sentiment, especially when the two do not co-relate.

It has been well said above that the ideal of true genderless-ness belongs to a minority, even here on BaseNotes, talk less of the fragrance-using world in general. A new male member or lurker will have to navigate between 2 boards for topics he would naturally have gravitated towards the MFD board for. Another question we need to consider is: would a new viewer (essential for the continued survival of BaseNotes) or even a new member immediately appreciate the difference between a general discussion and a specific male/female fragrance discussion and, therefore, know where to post?

Removing the viewing statistics will not be a good business or forum-management decision as well. This is how the popularity of BaseNotes is determined by some, as well as estimating the response time and volume of any post. There must have been a good reason for setting the statistics up in the first place.

I would say that things should be kept simple, leave the boards as they are. There will always be dissenting opinions (some very pertinent) but what seems to be working for the multitude of members needs not be "fixed".

I feel the same it is great having both perspectives on fragrance, even though one can argue about fragrance not having gender I still believe that there are ones with more masculine smells than feminine. I will be honest I have unisex colognes in my collection, virgin island water, musc ravageur eventually, millesime imperial, and a few others but I do think there are ones that are too feminine for me to touch. Just my two scents , even though I do like angel for women.

I like the boards just as they exist now. The guys have always made me feel welcome anyways. I think a General Fragrance Discussion board would not be very active.

I thought the men's forum was for discussing masculine scents and scents worn mostly by men. Now I'm confused. Does this mean women should stop posting here? Bad news for me, as I find myself hanging out in the men's section a lot more, simply because there are far more active threads (even this important thread was posted in the men's section, even though it concerns everybody!), and also because I wear/like a lot of unisex stuff that men tend to wear more often. I've always feared someone's going to tell me to mind my own business and get back to the women's section anyway, and now it looks like I really should.

No.


No.

This:

I appreciate that you're in favor of maintaining separate boards, but the women here aren't going to pull off a David on the MFD's Goliath. Basenotes won't become Fragrantica or MUA. Okay? It just won't. What will happen if we merge is that the women here will lose the place we've called our own, and we'll try to reestablish that elsewhere.

I'm very much in favor of a discussion board aimed at mixed gender discussion of fragrances. I'd even like this to be separate from the Industry discussion, because I think that board is well-established for talking about perfumers, new releases, scientific studies, and the business of fragrance. AromiErotici's thread about "Fragrance influence in the workplace" is definitely a general topic well suited to both male and female readers/posters, but misses the mark as far as "Industry" goes, imo. So maybe a new General Fragrance Discussion instead of Industry and GFD combined?

One thing I really don't want to see is GFD threads devolving into arguments about whether fragrances are all unisex or not. It almost always is a deviation from the original thread topic, with particular members frequently voicing the same material over and over. This, like Creed wars, is another reason why I avoid the MFD. Maybe there should be a sticky thread at the top of the forum, "The gender of scents: marketing hype or clearly different?" and let those who are interested in the subject battle it out endlessly in their own dedicated thread.


Of course not, Paul! If you're seeking a female opinion on a matter, please join us on the FFD. If you want to address everyone, consider the new GFD. Perhaps the board descriptions could be better worded (suggestions?), but I see what Grant wanted to accomplish back in 2004-- a place for women to gather and talk amongst themselves about subjects that interest the female point of view. I very much don't want to see this swallowed up by the MFD.


I think it is reasonable to assume that the preponderance of viewers of the MFD are male, and the FFD female. I think this assumption is borne out by the percentages of men vs women posting in each forum, by which I mean most all of the posts in the MFD are by men, and the FFD by women, though I believe the FFD sees more crossover percentage-wise because it is a smaller forum (say, 5 men posting among 50 women, versus 5 women posting among 200 men).

I still think it would be cleaner and less confusing to have one general fragrance discussion board. People can always designate gender in the thread titles if they wish, as they do now (for example, "Guys, what do you think about ______?" or "Ladies, I need your advice about ______.").

And as someone else mentioned, the two SotD threads differ in character, even though there is crossover, so we could continue doing the male/female thing with those.

FWIW, I think combining "Fragrance Industry" with "General Fragrance Discussion" could be confusing. We'll see, I guess. No umbrage from me, Grant! :-)