Basenotes › Basenotes Forums › Fragrance Discussion › Fragrance Industry and General Fragrance Discussion › Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN  

post #1 of 200
10/17/10 at 1:01am
Thread Starter 
http://fr.news.yahoo.com/63/20101015...2207d37_1.html

I call for a boycott until guerlain and LVMH disassociate themselves from the remarks and break ties with him

Features on Basenotes

Basenotes Reader Awards 2013 - Finalists Announced.
Greatest Hits: Annick Menardo
Petals Falling From The Sky - A Report From The Cote d'Azur's Bataille De Fleurs
post #2 of 200
10/17/10 at 1:16am
Entertaining.

I just bought some more Derby.
post #3 of 200
10/17/10 at 1:27am
We are talking about the remarks of *one* man here... and whilst JP is still an occasional advisor to his protegee, he lends little else to the company these days other than his surname. Its all very unfortunate and a really very foolish comment to make, but I personally feel a boycott is disproportionate to the public faux-pas of a seventysomethingyearold man.

This being said though, the PR team at H.O. must be putting out fires in their sleep!
post #4 of 200
10/17/10 at 1:40am
I'm curious to see how LVMH will handle this... Maybe they'll just ignore it, wait for it to blow over.
post #5 of 200
10/17/10 at 2:28am
I understand that he used a phrase containing society's last true "bad word", but seriously, the whole thing is so overblown.

I remember when I was a teenager working in a fast food joint. We were getting slammed. This white maintenance guy walked past us all and uttered that line, that we were "working like a bunch of n*****s." We wouldn't have been too shocked because that's how a lot of people still talked, but I looked over at my buddy who was biracial to see his reaction--and he was laughing, though slightly taken aback as he looked at the guy and cleared his throat. "Hey, watch what you're saying!" he retorted.

Without missing a beat, the offender just replied with a glint in his eye, "It's OK Eric, I was just talking to your white half." And honestly, it was so offensive and just wrong, but still hilarious that my friend and I couldn't stop laughing our asses off. We were half-way intelligent enough to understand that while the guy was using language that he shouldn't have used, it didn't mean that he wanted to physically put chains on anybody or string Eric from a tree? No. The maintenance guy walked out the back door, and our day continued as it had before. There was no talk of getting the guy fired for using such language. It never crossed anybody's mind to make a big deal out it. We laughed at the guy for putting his foot in his mouth and then we went on about our work.

I understand what you're saying Hirch, I do. But I think the best way to deal with occasional utterance of such ugly words isn't to run around boycotting this and banning that. There are a lot of horrible things that people DO in this world to other people-- JP Guerlain was just using an outdated colloquialism--offensive as it may be-- it's not like he necessarilyis a racist because he used such an expression. Going all out and labelling someone a racist and then calling down hellfire upon them is to label someone in the exact same way that a true racist labels people. I don't like racist labels, but I also dislike labelling people as racists just the same.

I've worked with a lot of different people in my life-- I've been around older black guys who used old outdated expressions and names for groups of people that are not the accepted norm, but nobody gets offended because we understand that it's casual language and we know that they grew up in a different era.

I'd like to see him apologize for using those words, but come on,we don't have to stone the guy. He's not a murderer or a child molester. There's a difference between being a genocidal monster who who advocates abusing people based on their skin color and a guy who is trying to make a joke with colorful language that really has nothing to do with race. Nobody will ever be perfect. I think it's just better to accept that all people are people and move on.

I don't have to tell you that Miles Davis wasn't the most colorblind guy in the world-- that won't stop me from digging his music. I'm not going to stop listening to Wagner either. That's just how I feel. I understand why you feel the way you do and respect that; and I can understand why some would want a boycott, but I just don't agree. That's just my take on it.

EDIT: I'm basing my post solely on his comments on the French TV show. I just now saw the other thread regarding JP Guerlain, and I see that some have mentioned past behaviors which supposedly point to a pattern of behavior. I couldn't find anything on this and was curious to see if some of you have more info.
post #6 of 200
10/17/10 at 2:43am
He is of a certain age , many people of a similar age will more than likely say un-pc things or share similar views which are irrelavant .

Storm in a tea cup ...
post #7 of 200
10/17/10 at 3:03am
According to the CNN.com article I read last night, JP did apologize - profusely. This could have been an age-related gaff, or it could have been truly a rascist thought, but one utterance in public isn't enough to judge him on whether he's a rascist. True rascists usually leave an evidence trail through their lives that confirms their true stuff.

As far as seniors inadvertendtly saying the darndest things, my 88-year old dad says stupid things that he would have NEVER said in his 50s or even 60s. Age does curious things to a person's mind. I don't argue with him anymore.
post #8 of 200
10/17/10 at 3:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pour_Monsieur View Post

He is of a certain age , many people of a similar age will more than likely say un-pc things or share similar views which are irrelavant .

Storm in a tea cup ...

Exactly right.

The man is 70-something years old. That, in-and-of-itself, deserves some respect and some lattitude. I believe in always putting the most-favorable and -charitable construction on things. He was talking about how he created a fragrance for a woman he was in love with; I will accept that he was simply swept up in the passion of his fond memories and, in that mode, made a simple slip. It is not something he has publically made a habit of. It was a on-time incident.

He quickly appologied. Let us all be gracious and accept his appology and move on.
post #9 of 200
10/17/10 at 5:20am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indie_Guy View Post

I understand that he used a phrase containing society's last true "bad word", but seriously, the whole thing is so overblown.

I remember when I was a teenager working in a fast food joint. We were getting slammed. This white maintenance guy walked past us all and uttered that line, that we were "working like a bunch of n*****s." We wouldn't have been too shocked because that's how a lot of people still talked, but I looked over at my buddy who was biracial to see his reaction--and he was laughing, though slightly taken aback as he looked at the guy and cleared his throat. "Hey, watch what you're saying!" he retorted.

Without missing a beat, the offender just replied with a glint in his eye, "It's OK Eric, I was just talking to your white half." And honestly, it was so offensive and just wrong, but still hilarious that my friend and I couldn't stop laughing our asses off. We were half-way intelligent enough to understand that while the guy was using language that he shouldn't have used, it didn't mean that he wanted to physically put chains on anybody or string Eric from a tree? No. The maintenance guy walked out the back door, and our day continued as it had before. There was no talk of getting the guy fired for using such language. It never crossed anybody's mind to make a big deal out it. We laughed at the guy for putting his foot in his mouth and then we went on about our work.

I understand what you're saying Hirch, I do. But I think the best way to deal with occasional utterance of such ugly words isn't to run around boycotting this and banning that. There are a lot of horrible things that people DO in this world to other people-- JP Guerlain was just using an outdated colloquialism--offensive as it may be-- it's not like he necessarilyis a racist because he used such an expression. Going all out and labelling someone a racist and then calling down hellfire upon them is to label someone in the exact same way that a true racist labels people. I don't like racist labels, but I also dislike labelling people as racists just the same.

I've worked with a lot of different people in my life-- I've been around older black guys who used old outdated expressions and names for groups of people that are not the accepted norm, but nobody gets offended because we understand that it's casual language and we know that they grew up in a different era.

I'd like to see him apologize for using those words, but come on,we don't have to stone the guy. He's not a murderer or a child molester. There's a difference between being a genocidal monster who who advocates abusing people based on their skin color and a guy who is trying to make a joke with colorful language that really has nothing to do with race. Nobody will ever be perfect. I think it's just better to accept that all people are people and move on.

I don't have to tell you that Miles Davis wasn't the most colorblind guy in the world-- that won't stop me from digging his music. I'm not going to stop listening to Wagner either. That's just how I feel. I understand why you feel the way you do and respect that; and I can understand why some would want a boycott, but I just don't agree. That's just my take on it.

EDIT: I'm basing my post solely on his comments on the French TV show. I just now saw the other thread regarding JP Guerlain, and I see that some have mentioned past behaviors which supposedly point to a pattern of behavior. I couldn't find anything on this and was curious to see if some of you have more info.

I bet your maintence guy had enough consciousness that he would never have said that in a public interview.
The best way to deal with things like that is for everybody to make clear that it is not acceptable. It either is or it isn't.
post #10 of 200
10/17/10 at 5:21am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorcery of Scent View Post

We are talking about the remarks of *one* man here... and whilst JP is still an occasional advisor to his protegee, he lends little else to the company these days other than his surname. Its all very unfortunate and a really very foolish comment to make, but I personally feel a boycott is disproportionate to the public faux-pas of a seventysomethingyearold man.

This being said though, the PR team at H.O. must be putting out fires in their sleep!

Yes, he is not so important to the company any more, so it would be reasonably easy for the company and LVMH to diassociate themselves with it.
post #11 of 200
10/17/10 at 5:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by hirch_duckfinder View Post

Yes, he is not so important to the company any more, so it would be reasonably easy for the company and LVMH to diassociate themselves with it.

I totally understand the point you're making Hirch, but I do feel such action would be disproportionate to the misdeed.
post #12 of 200
10/17/10 at 6:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by hirch_duckfinder View Post

...The best way to deal with things like that is for everybody to make clear that it is not acceptable. It either is or it isn't.

+1 on that.
post #13 of 200
10/17/10 at 6:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by hirch_duckfinder View Post

http://fr.news.yahoo.com/63/20101015...2207d37_1.html

I call for a boycott until guerlain and LVMH disassociate themselves from the remarks and break ties with him

I don't speak french. What did he say?
post #14 of 200
10/17/10 at 6:56am
My grandfather came from a time when comments like that were made off the cuff. He was indeed a bit of a racist at least by how he spoke, and would say things that shocked us kids. He never treated ANYONE of any color any different than the way he treated the rest of the people in his life, so the words he uttered were given latitude as something "from another time." That did not make the comments right, but it also did not mean we didn't love my Grandfather dearly. Times were different for him as a child and we have no way to know exactly how he came to think the way he did.

We would not have disassociated ourselves from him because of his old-fashioned ideas and comments any more than I would disassociate myself from the Guerlain scents I have, based upon a few public comments that seem to be "from another time."

That said, I WOULD consider not buying another Guerlain scent if the new company's policies were found to be exploitative or discriminatory, but not just based on a few careless words of a very old-school gentleman. It's not as though JPG is out there acting like a neo-Nazi and spouting hate like some people (people who should know better but choose not to) in this world are doing right now.
post #15 of 200
10/17/10 at 6:58am
Even if his statement wasn't an age related faux pas or a result of an obsolete generational mindset, the man is entitled to his opinions and views even if others do not agree with them. Perhaps he feels his views on race are reasonable and justifiable based upon his experiences. Even if he didn't apologize, he should be allowed to have his beliefs.

I wholeheartedly disagree with fascistic thinking, where everyone must toe the line and accept the commonly held groupthink paradigm or else be severely castigated and ostracized. If we consider ourselves to be enlightened, let the man think the way he wishes and express his opinions without judgment.

I'm not supporting his beliefs, whatever those may be, or his statement, but I am supporting his right to hold and state those beliefs freely. He should be able to do so without hysterical overreaction or fear of reprisal. Our society has become so hypersensitive, intolerant, judgmental, insecure, fearful, self-righteous and politically correct that any deviation from the norm is treated as blasphemy against holy dogma.
post #16 of 200
10/17/10 at 7:31am
I would boycott Guerlain if he was still a part of the company. As it is, I'll certainly have some negative associations with Samsara for a while.

As for people's nearest and dearest racists, If someone holds me to different standards of acceptable behavior just because I'm elderly, it's time for the green dream. Seriously, if I start going on about "The Pakis" like my grandfather did, throw me off the nearest cliff. It's what my younger self would have wanted.
post #17 of 200
10/17/10 at 7:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by noggs View Post

I'm not supporting his beliefs, whatever those may be, or his statement, but I am supporting his right to hold and state those beliefs freely. He should be able to do so without hysterical overreaction or fear of reprisal.

I've never quite understood the following way of thinking:

1) Someone makes a statement. ( This is free speech. )

2) Other people disagree with that statement. ( Somehow a hideous form of oppression. )

I don't believe in arresting or stopping Mr. Guerlain from saying any number of hateful things. Yet, if I stopped wanting to use his creations over that, or wanted to publicly object to that statement, shouldn't that be my one of my freedoms, too?
post #18 of 200
10/17/10 at 7:58am
Not every country had slavery and its not considered a bad word for them.
post #19 of 200
10/17/10 at 8:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugandaraja View Post

As for people's nearest and dearest racists, If someone holds me to different standards of acceptable behavior just because I'm elderly, it's time for the green dream. Seriously, if I start going on about "The Pakis" like my grandfather did, throw me off the nearest cliff. It's what my younger self would have wanted.

I'm with you there Suga... tie me up and leave me in a forest full of bears if I start spouting that stuff in my old age... I'll at least be useful to the bears and other forest critters!
post #20 of 200
10/17/10 at 10:44am
Guerlain will sell more perfume in the next week than they have in the last month, especially bottles of Samsara.

And for the most part, what JPG says has nothing to do with whether or not I'll buy Guerlain fragrances.
post #21 of 200
10/17/10 at 10:46am
My hypothesis is that people would be more likely to take offense and boycot if the exact same statements were made by someone associated with less loved perfumes. The same way people are more likely to care about the rights of kittens and dogs than the rights of those tasty cows.
post #22 of 200
10/17/10 at 10:51am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pluran View Post

Guerlain will sell more perfume in the next week than they have in the last month, especially bottles of Samsara.

I doubt that is true and I'm somewhat disturbed that you seem to think
a) That people will deliberately buy it out of sympathy for his views (very disturbing)
or
b) That the publicity generated will lead to more sales regardless of the reason for said publicity (disturbing).

Either way - is it not important to challange views or utterances like this. If they are not challanged, how do we expect them to change?
post #23 of 200
10/17/10 at 10:53am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkdreams View Post

My hypothesis is that people would be more likely to take offense and boycot if the exact same statements were made by someone associated with less loved perfumes. The same way people are more likely to care about the rights of kittens and dogs than the rights of those tasty cows.

This is probably true - but does that mean we shouldn't try?
post #24 of 200
10/17/10 at 10:56am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by archelon View Post

Not every country had slavery and its not considered a bad word for them.

It is not about the word. It is the concept "work like a negro" (maybe better translated as nigger) which has echoes of forced labour, chains and slavery.
post #25 of 200
10/17/10 at 10:57am
I agree that this was a faux pas made by a man of an older generation. He is probably not as P.C. nor aware as younger French people. If he has already seen this mistake and apologised as Snafoo observed, IMO, we need to move on. How many times do we see elderly American World War Two veterans interviewed on television using the derogatory term "japs" in their discussion? We need to just see this as a generational thing, see how things have changed and move on.

For the record, the French traditionally were more open to those of African origin when doors were still closed to them in the Western world. Look at the likes of Josephine Baker, hailed during the Jazz Age as the goddess of sensuality in France and the sensation of Paris. She was called la "Venus noire." She exulted in her African heritage and beauty, and honored her adopted country of France in the French Resistance movement of WWII. (ELdO have a perfume honouring her, BTW.) ELdO is a French company and Etienne Swardt is NOT of M. Guerlain's generation.

Keep in mind that as a culture, the French abolished chattel slavery (1794) waaaay before the U.K. (1833) and also the U.S. (1863)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pour_Monsieur View Post

He is of a certain age , many people of a similar age will more than likely say un-pc things or share similar views which are irrelavant .

Storm in a tea cup ...

Well said. Unfortunate incident, but as many have already observed, it's generational.

On Josephine Baker by ELdO, from NKD Man:

"Josephine Baker didn’t have just one life – she had many…."

Emerging from the sordid poverty and racial intolerance of early 20th Century St. Louis, she delighted audiences all over America and Europe with her exuberant dancing and sexual frankness.

Created by Cécile Matton for Etat Libre d'Orange, Josephine Baker is a wonderful cocktail of citrus, spice and gourmand notes. A passionate perfumist, Cécile has created perfumes for Yves Saint Laurent, Cartier and Jacomo.

Ingredients Composition: grapefruit, champagne accord, cardamom, jasmine, curry jungle essence, black pepper, gourmand accord, labdanum, sandalwood and lorenox."

http://www.nkdman.co.uk/etat-libre-d...sephine-baker/
post #26 of 200
10/17/10 at 11:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by hirch_duckfinder View Post

This is probably true - but does that mean we shouldn't try?

I meant quite the opposite. Perhaps sometimes people are hypocritical and too easily find reasons that put to rest any concerns that might interfere with their confort and well-being. Of course, most of the times we are not even aware we are doing it.
post #27 of 200
10/17/10 at 11:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by hirch_duckfinder View Post

This is probably true - but does that mean we shouldn't try?

I agree with you in principle, but when it comes to moral values versus well-loved fragrances, moral values can go take a hike, at least as far as the fragrance community is concerned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darkdreams View Post

My hypothesis is that people would be more likely to take offense and boycot if the exact same statements were made by someone associated with less loved perfumes. The same way people are more likely to care about the rights of kittens and dogs than the rights of those tasty cows.

I agree totally. If Etat Libre d'Orange said in a press release that Secretions Magnifique "smelled like n****rs", people would be up in arms. However, the works of Jean-Paul are much-lauded here, so being bigoted is seen as just something cute and lovable that old people do. So it goes...
post #28 of 200
10/17/10 at 11:06am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkdreams View Post

I meant quite the opposite. Perhaps sometimes people are hypocritical and too easily find reasons that put to rest any concerns that might interfere with their confort and well-being. Of course, most of the times we are not even aware we are doing it.

Ah, I understand. I wasn't sure which way around you meant it :-)
post #29 of 200
10/17/10 at 11:35am
Wow - I give this thread a day or two tops, because it's getting disturbingly political already...

My two cents: I can only speak as an American, but we seem to have a recurring problem here in the US where someone says or does something utterly racist and cruel, and whenever anyone rightly calls them on it, tons of people come out of the woodwork to defend the racist. It implies that somehow calling someone who is clearly racist a racist is somehow worse than being racist, which is baffling. It's sort of a herd mentality that reenforces unspoken racist social norms and attempts to intimidate victims of racism under the guise of protecting free speech. This wider-scale show of support for the racist then creates a situation where the oppressed people who are the victims of racism are subtly being told that the racist is right and don't you dare fight him (which, in the end, is the exact opposite of the preservation of freedom that the commenters claim is their goal).

OK, so the man made some perfumes you like - does that, or his age, really give him carte blanche to be a dick?
post #30 of 200
10/17/10 at 11:52am
I appreciate your valiant intent and righteous nature Hirch, sticking up so quickly for a minority group.
But I don't see it as outright hateful xenophobic malice & mischief like the US extreme right.
This seems more like a tasteless attempt at humor by an old wasp, worthy of scorn,
but not a post-apology-boycott imo. He's apologized, with seemingly genuine emotion.

Andas a consumer, there are so many people involved with Guerlain, that no matter what the head says, it's the juice that matters in the end, I'm not all that big on Guerlain anyways, they are not a great masculine house at all, imo. Vetiver Sport is just good enough to own, & their Eauxs are bested by Patricia Nicolai, Creed, and now even Penhaligons imo. No big loss even if I did boycott.


edit: after seeing another translation, it actually does seem dismissively mean-spirited.
the man is an @sshole.
post #31 of 200
10/17/10 at 1:22pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DULLAH View Post

I appreciate your valiant intent and righteous nature Hirch, sticking up so quickly for a minority group.
But I don't see it as outright hateful xenophobic malice & mischief like the US extreme right.
This seems more like a tasteless attempt at humor by an old wasp, worthy of scorn,
but not a post-apology-boycott imo. He's apologized, with seemingly genuine emotion.

Andas a consumer, there are so many people involved with Guerlain, that no matter what the head says, it's the juice that matters in the end, I'm not all that big on Guerlain anyways, they are not a great masculine house at all, imo. Vetiver Sport is just good enough to own, & their Eauxs are bested by Patricia Nicolai, Creed, and now even Penhaligons imo. No big loss even if I did boycott.


edit: after seeing another translation, it actually does seem dismissively mean-spirited.
the man is an @sshole.

Could you post a link to the translation please, Dullah.
Since when were black people a minority?
post #32 of 200
10/17/10 at 4:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogalal View Post

Wow - I give this thread a day or two tops, because it's getting disturbingly political already...

My two cents: I can only speak as an American, but we seem to have a recurring problem here in the US where someone says or does something utterly racist and cruel, and whenever anyone rightly calls them on it, tons of people come out of the woodwork to defend the racist. It implies that somehow calling someone who is clearly racist a racist is somehow worse than being racist, which is baffling. It's sort of a herd mentality that reenforces unspoken racist social norms and attempts to intimidate victims of racism under the guise of protecting free speech. This wider-scale show of support for the racist then creates a situation where the oppressed people who are the victims of racism are subtly being told that the racist is right and don't you dare fight him (which, in the end, is the exact opposite of the preservation of freedom that the commenters claim is their goal).

OK, so the man made some perfumes you like - does that, or his age, really give him carte blanche to be a dick?

Very well put.
post #33 of 200
10/17/10 at 4:49pm
I am French and all I can say is that Guerlain, being from the older generation, used a well worn, old fashioned French cliche. Yes it sounds racist in our modern, politically correct world. But who does not have an elderly member of the family that says things that, to our ears, sound unbearably prejudiced? I am sure Guerlain hears young French use language that is shocking to him. Nevertheless, he should have chosen his words more carefully since he was speaking publicly.
post #34 of 200
10/17/10 at 5:15pm
Oppressively ridiculous political correctness offends me more than the comments of an old man speaking off the cuff....
post #35 of 200
10/17/10 at 5:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogalal View Post

Wow - I give this thread a day or two tops, because it's getting disturbingly political already...

My two cents: I can only speak as an American, but we seem to have a recurring problem here in the US where someone says or does something utterly racist and cruel, and whenever anyone rightly calls them on it, tons of people come out of the woodwork to defend the racist. It implies that somehow calling someone who is clearly racist a racist is somehow worse than being racist, which is baffling. It's sort of a herd mentality that reenforces unspoken racist social norms and attempts to intimidate victims of racism under the guise of protecting free speech. This wider-scale show of support for the racist then creates a situation where the oppressed people who are the victims of racism are subtly being told that the racist is right and don't you dare fight him (which, in the end, is the exact opposite of the preservation of freedom that the commenters claim is their goal).

OK, so the man made some perfumes you like - does that, or his age, really give him carte blanche to be a dick?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Surfacing View Post

Very well put.

Agree!
post #36 of 200
10/17/10 at 7:14pm
And today when I had to go to the gas station, I was trying to pump my gas while minding my own business--and some African American guy with saggy pants had to pull right up next to me blasting his music while pumping his gas. Literally ever other word was nigger. That's the crap that makes my blood boil. I couldn't get my windows rolled up and leave fast enough.

I don't believe in "identity politics" where some people get a pass to do whatever they want because of their ethnicity/gender/etc. It's time we hold everybody to the same standards and do away with the "soft bigotry of low expectations." And that is the real racism in the world right now.
post #37 of 200
10/17/10 at 7:33pm
I, too, don't get the uproar. I'll reiterate comments made prior, that it is fine to get offended, but we live in a society that unfortunately is ALWAYS seeking out ways to be offended. There are more lawsuits and special-interest groups than I could possibly count, and quite frankly THAT'S disturbing. He's an older man, his thoughts and what he says are a reflection upon his upbringing, and a simple slip of the tongue is no reason to boycott, sue or banish. He made a mistake, he apologized and now we forget and move on, no beheading necessary. And for those that feel that they would never possibly be in the same situation that Mr. Guerlain are in when they reach old age, you're being incredibly naive. Fifty years from now, there are bound to be different social norms than there are today, and to act as if those customs that were instilled while growing up will disappear naturally along with changing societal values is a misguided pipe dream.
post #38 of 200
10/17/10 at 7:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indie_Guy View Post

I don't believe in "identity politics" where some people get a pass to do whatever they want because of their ethnicity/gender/etc. It's time we hold everybody to the same standards and do away with the "soft bigotry of low expectations."

Exactly. People shouldn't be excused from bad behavior just because of their race, gender - or age.
post #39 of 200
10/17/10 at 7:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indie_Guy View Post

I don't believe in "identity politics" where some people get a pass to do whatever they want because of their ethnicity/gender/etc.

If this actually happened it would offend me too.
post #40 of 200
10/17/10 at 8:39pm
I read that, back in the 1970s, David Bowie went to see Frank Sinatra perform in Las Vegas. After the show Bowie wanted to go back stage and meet Sinatra and tell him he had plans to play Sinatra in a biopic. Sinatra refused to meet with Bowie and said that he, "didn't want any fag playing me in a movie."
post #41 of 200
10/17/10 at 8:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by archelon
Not every country had slavery and its not considered a bad word for them.

France did though. It also colonised most of west, central and north africa, building its wealth by exploiting the hard work of the people who lived there. In short, it's offensive. Of course, the way to deal with a public relations misstep of a major company is a boycott.
By all accounts Guerlain's a very charming man, he has apologised and must be forgiven. (charm can hide people's true nature but God can be the judge of that). But by all means boycott LVMH to send a clear message about racism. It is after all the world's largest, richest, most european luxury goods company, all it cares about is money. For it to really understand that racism is wrong, it might need to see a dent in sales. Down with the capitalism.
post #42 of 200
10/17/10 at 8:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pawful View Post

France did though. It also colonised most of west, central and north africa, building its wealth by exploiting the hard work of the people who lived there.

France's treatment of the slaves in Haiti was one of the most brutal chapters in its history, ending countless lives yet, at its peak, generating fourth fifths of France's wealth. Given that Haiti today is one of the world's poorest and most troubled countries, and France is one of the wealthiest and most powerful, France's colonial legacy both there and elsewhere is all too present in the world to make light of.
post #43 of 200
10/17/10 at 10:12pm
If being shocked and horrified by racism and furthermore moved to action can be qualified as "oppressively-ridiculous political correctness", then Abraham Lincoln was the most asinine, ridiculous PC oppressor in history.

As to the sort-of turn-of-the-century wave of colonial French exoticism, which "exalted" the 'sensuality' of Josephine Baker and other African-descended entertainers, being evolved, egalitarian, or laudable, I'm inclined to disagree.

Rogalal, I could not have put it better. Thanks for your comments.
post #44 of 200
10/18/10 at 2:36am
It's sad. I can't say I'm outraged by this haughty old man's public gaffe in the same way that slavery in Mauretania or labor conditions in China co-sponsored by the West's shoddy consumerism outrage me. But you'd wish that a man like Guerlain, capable of such refinement and sensibility in his artful line of work, so well-travelled and cosmopolitan, would simply not be capable of harboring a worn-out racist cliché of this sort. Such a callous remark from such a cultivated mind serves as a sorrowful illustration of how segregated and selective civility may be.
post #45 of 200
10/18/10 at 5:37am
I found an update here: http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/eu...n.slur/?hpt=T2

Apparently, he issued an apology that French anti-racism group SOS-Racisme found to be inadequate. They are taking legal action and potentially Guerlain could be issued a fine, should it appear before a magistrate. I wonder how large of a fine he could receive?

Beyond the question of whether such speech is ethical or appropriate (which most of us think it is not), sometimes we in the USA forget that such speech is not universally protected.
post #46 of 200
10/18/10 at 6:25am
I think, in true honesty, that Jean-Paul Guerlain may be suffering from senility.
post #47 of 200
10/18/10 at 6:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Guyer View Post

I think, in true honesty, that Jean-Paul Guerlain may be suffering from senility.

He seems quite frail now, doesn't he? If he is indeed struggling mentally, you wonder what the PR people are doing sending him out on these publicity tours. Well, no more now, I suppose.
post #48 of 200
10/18/10 at 6:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indie_Guy View Post

And today when I had to go to the gas station, I was trying to pump my gas while minding my own business--and some African American guy with saggy pants had to pull right up next to me blasting his music while pumping his gas. Literally ever other word was nigger. That's the crap that makes my blood boil. I couldn't get my windows rolled up and leave fast enough.

I don't believe in "identity politics" where some people get a pass to do whatever they want because of their ethnicity/gender/etc. It's time we hold everybody to the same standards and do away with the "soft bigotry of low expectations." And that is the real racism in the world right now.

Yes, yes, and yes.
post #49 of 200
10/18/10 at 6:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Guyer View Post

I think, in true honesty, that Jean-Paul Guerlain may be suffering from senility.

Yes. Any of us with aging parents (or aging selves) can attest to the common phenom known as senility!
post #50 of 200
10/18/10 at 6:48am
  • MHV
  • offline
  • Gender:
An old French white male makes racist comments? Incredible.

Yes it should be handled appropriately by LVMH and all that, but if anyone here is acting surprised by JP's comments, I dare say they are naive.
post #51 of 200
10/18/10 at 7:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MHV View Post

An old French white male makes racist comments? Incredible.

Yes it should be handled appropriately by LVMH and all that, but if anyone here is acting surprised by JP's comments, I dare say they are naive.

No matter whether you prejudicially assume all elder white male French men to frequently be making racist comments or not, it is a rather rare ocurrence on public television. I've recorded my thoughts an invite further commentary:
http://perfumedpolitics.blogspot.com...ins-gaffe.html
post #52 of 200
10/18/10 at 7:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugandaraja View Post

France's treatment of the slaves in Haiti was one of the most brutal chapters in its history, ending countless lives yet, at its peak, generating fourth fifths of France's wealth. Given that Haiti today is one of the world's poorest and most troubled countries, and France is one of the wealthiest and most powerful, France's colonial legacy both there and elsewhere is all too present in the world to make light of.

And much more recently (about a month ago) France was suspected of racial discrimination in the case of Roma population expulsion. The passing of the burqa ban is yet another issue.
post #53 of 200
10/18/10 at 7:33am
...
post #54 of 200
10/18/10 at 7:37am
  • MHV
  • offline
  • Gender:
This kind of behaviour is just statistically less surprising for someone like JPG who grew up in colonial France in a rich industrial family.

Remember that French still has colonies, even though they call it more lightly "DOM-TOM".

It's like saying the Tea Party people are narrow-minded. A prejudiced opinion, for sure, but an intellectual shortcut with a kernel of truth.
post #55 of 200
10/18/10 at 8:13am
Being a black man, I was very offended by this, if its true, I wont be buying from this house again....

http://www.voice-online.co.uk/content.php?show=18287
post #56 of 200
10/18/10 at 8:21am
certainly not excusable, but do consider that at least something was lost in translation.

don't take offense to his usage of the N-word, since I think in French he may have just meant black man. Take offense that he said he worked like a black person.
post #57 of 200
10/18/10 at 8:22am
Because of the word he used? What he said isn't negative towards black people, I think he just meant to say that he worked very hard..
post #58 of 200
10/18/10 at 8:26am
I actually dont care in what context he used it in, it should not have been used.
post #59 of 200
10/18/10 at 8:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Desmond Hume View Post

Because of the word he used? What he said isn't negative towards black people, I think he just meant to say that he worked very hard..

I think the addition of "I don’t know if n***ers have ever worked that much…” rather dispels that charitable view of the comments.
post #60 of 200
10/18/10 at 8:30am
It is pretty outrageous, imo. But he's an old man, old people tend to say things that are more indicative of attitudes of decades past. If it helps, I don't think he's very involved with the company anymore.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
This thread is locked  

Features on Basenotes

Basenotes Reader Awards 2013 - Finalists Announced.
Greatest Hits: Annick Menardo
Petals Falling From The Sky - A Report From The Cote d'Azur's Bataille De Fleurs
Basenotes › Basenotes Forums › Fragrance Discussion › Fragrance Industry and General Fragrance Discussion › Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN