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Natural organic fruit flavors in perfume-making?

post #1 of 18
11/10/10 at 8:04pm
Thread Starter 
I have decided not to go into aromachemicals. Since there are not fruit essential oils, could use natural organic flavors instead for peach, pomegranate, coconut, raspberry notes, etc.??
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post #2 of 18
11/11/10 at 4:16am
Flavours are usually water soluble and so of no use in Perfumery. What's wrong with aromachemicals?
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post #3 of 18
11/14/10 at 1:13pm
All the fruit smells you mentioned can only be created with any accuracy by means of chemicals.
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post #4 of 18
11/15/10 at 2:17am
Another problem with using fruit flavors would be that they are weak compared to oils used in perfumery. And would they contain sugar (I don't know).
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post #5 of 18
5/25/12 at 8:14pm
You could maybe try to macerate the fruit in a fat. Or to gently cook in water. Then strain and add to perfumers alcohol. It might work.
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post #6 of 18
5/26/12 at 4:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Argane View Post

I have decided not to go into aromachemicals. Since there are not fruit essential oils, could use natural organic flavors instead for peach, pomegranate, coconut, raspberry notes, etc.??

As David says many flavours will be no use because they are water soluble, and or too weak. Worse many are permitted as flavourings but not suitable for use in perfume (because they cause problems when used on the skin). You cant assume that because something is safe to eat its safe to use in a fragrance.

If you want to re-create fruit scents, the best way to do it is to research the chemical components of the natural scent (look for GC-MS and especially headspace analyses) and then put that together with aroma-chemicals: if you want to avoid synthetics, many of these are available as natural isolates so you dont have to sacrifice your commitment to natural perfumery to do it.

One final thought: at the BSP symposium this year we were introduced to some new materials, one of which was an Apple Essential Oil - a world first I believe - which is made from waste products of the cider and apple-juice industries. It really does smell of apple too. The only downside is its quite heavily restricted by IFRA.

There could well be other fruit oils that exist now too, though I would advocate caution as there are unscrupulous suppliers about who will claim that fragrance oils made entirely from synthetics are natural fruit oils. Its something Ill be researching myself as soon as I have some free time to do so.
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post #7 of 18
5/29/12 at 8:42pm
Hmm conjures thoughts of apple and cinnamon type dessert scents!
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post #8 of 18
5/30/12 at 12:01pm
I'd like to recommend Hermitage's raspberry leaf absolute as the jammiest fruity scent I've found. I don't really want to tell you all, because I want it for myself, but since you ask...
Then there's buchu, which smells like blackcurrant but use only the TINIEST amount as it stinks like cat pee if you're not careful. I've screwed up a nice blend by accidentally overestimating the amount I needed. Hermitage also stock that one. It's not cheap but a little goes a long way.
As for coconut, pomegranate and peach, if anyone tells you they've made a natural fragrance that smells of those, they are mistaken, or misleading you.
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post #9 of 18
5/30/12 at 12:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4160Tuesdays View Post

I'd like to recommend Hermitage's raspberry leaf absolute as the jammiest fruity scent I've found. I don't really want to tell you all, because I want it for myself, but since you ask...
Then there's buchu, which smells like blackcurrant but use only the TINIEST amount as it stinks like cat pee if you're not careful. I've screwed up a nice blend by accidentally overestimating the amount I needed. Hermitage also stock that one. It's not cheap but a little goes a long way.
As for coconut, pomegranate and peach, if anyone tells you they've made a natural fragrance that smells of those, they are mistaken, or misleading you.

I agree with this almost entirely, but would offer these cautions / additional thoughts:

The raspberry leaf absolute is the Devils own job to get into solution. I struggled with it even with the variety of solvents I tried - 4160Tuesdays if you found a good solvent for it Id very much like to know what it was!

I have a sample of a natural isolate that arrived just this week - gamma-Octalactone - which smells decidedly of coconut. I can imagine producing some very good effects with this in a natural fragrance (though Ive not yet had a chance to try it out as Im inundated with samples and have no time to play with them).

The same company that supplied it lists something called Peach mercaptan (mainly used in flavouring) as well as so-called Aldehyde C14 (both are natural isolates) and again I can imagine making a successful natural peach accord using these.

At the moment none of these is available in anything less than a kilo so not very practical for most DIY folk, but Im looking into that problem too.
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post #10 of 18
5/30/12 at 1:15pm
Well, the raspberry leaf absolute story. Yes, tricky.
I have a very small electric blanket that the cat sleeps on. It's technically a pillow warmer. I found that if I roll it around the jar to warm up the sticky, jammy absolute until it's hot and pours pretty well, I can at least get it into the mistral alcohol. Then I just stir and stir for hours in between doing other jobs. And finally, it dissolves - enough to give me a reasonable solution.
I love the smell so much that I will go to stupid lengths to keep using it. And you know, I'd almost forgotten how hard it was, because once I smell it all the effort just seems to disappear in a deep green raspberry-jammy liquid.
If my scents do ever go commercial, that particular one won't be going into production.
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post #11 of 18
5/30/12 at 1:17pm
PS I just got 500g of C14 gamma undecalactone from Perfumers World in Thailand and they'll sell smaller quantities. I do love its peachy creamy scent. (Not exactly natural organic though...).
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post #12 of 18
5/30/12 at 2:01pm
On the raspberry leaf - thanks for that - the trick Id missed was heating. I do know how that would be done on a commercial scale though: I have an automatic stirrer and Ive been thinking of getting one that incorporates a heating element as well. They cost a few hundred pounds (and up) so Ive been putting it off . . . anyway if you do decide to go public with it, there is a way.

C14 is cheap as chips if youre happy with the synthetic - its getting the natural thats a bit more difficult - for most of my stuff Im quite happy to use the synthetic but when Im doing and all-natural fragrance its nice to have some of the simpler notes to play with as well as the complex, whole naturals.
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post #13 of 18
4/28/13 at 10:58pm
What's wrong with a combo of gamma octalactone and massoia for coconut? If you combine that with GC/MS data, and stick to those constituents that are natural, I bet you can get close.

Or just use massoia. Whatever qualities it lacks, you should be able to find something natural to add that quality.

Thanks for the suggestions on raspberry and buchu. Raspberry crystals (ketone) are also nature identical.

Something to remember is that most chemicals that make up natural smells are in lots of natural smells. That means, firstly, people know about them, and secondly, that many of these chemicals are available as isolates.

One way to make your approach even more "natural" is to restrict percentages to those found in natural substances.

Or just stick to whole natural oils and be satisfied with the notes you get. This is fine, as far as I'm concerned, when I just need a note and don't have to make an entire perfume or complicated accord. If you just need a note, what's the difference?
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post #14 of 18
4/29/13 at 6:04pm
second on gamma octalactone very close to real coconut, no idea what massoia is though.
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post #15 of 18
4/30/13 at 1:05am
Massoia Bark oil is banned by IFRA; if that doesn't bother you, carry on. And I think gamma Nonalactone is closer to true Coconut.
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post #16 of 18
4/30/13 at 4:15am
Massoia is lovely and very coconutty but it has a very strange side note to it that is quite harsh, almost lemon grassy. It makes it smell like a rubbery, plastic coconut.
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post #17 of 18
5/1/13 at 1:38pm
'I have an automatic stirrer and I’ve been thinking of getting one that incorporates a heating element as well. They cost a few hundred pounds (and up) so I’ve been putting it off . . .'

A water bath and a fish tank heater - with thermostat - might do the job.

-
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post #18 of 18
5/1/13 at 1:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Bartlett View Post

'I have an automatic stirrer and I’ve been thinking of getting one that incorporates a heating element as well. They cost a few hundred pounds (and up) so I’ve been putting it off . . .'
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Got a used heated stirrer on Ebay for $40 shipped...
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