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Rage sparked over Cologne? Sad sad news ...

post #1 of 78
Thread Starter 
Came across these since yesterday, a promising football star died because of Dad's rage --coz of a frag. Sad.

Curious though :
1.) Wonder which $200 frag this was?
2.) Geez I hope he's not from around here -- this was my first thought actually

Chill BN'ers!

http://rivals.yahoo.com/highschool/b...hschool-wp3320

http://gawker.com/5817010/dad-angry-...ets-son-killed
post #2 of 78
Really sad.....That's all I can say!!!
Gary
post #3 of 78
Creed strikes AGAIN!
post #4 of 78
Sad... but it's more a money issue, doesn't have anything to do with fragrance imo.
That wouldn't have happened with a $20 fragrance...
post #5 of 78
Terribly sad.
post #6 of 78
What a role model. Gets his son killed and then tries to blame someone else for it. Father of the year.
post #7 of 78
Sad indeed.
post #8 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by silentrich View Post

What a role model. Gets his son killed and then tries to blame someone else for it. Father of the year.

Father was no angel. Story is all over the news here in Jersey. Did prison time for various drug/robbery charges. Attacked the parking lot attendants with a shovel and the son got stabbed protecting him. Sadly, no one has been charged for the stabbing yet but that's bullshit. There were 2 or more parking attendants involved in the fight. Self defense isn't stabbing someone in the chest. We'll see ....
post #9 of 78
Why am I not surprised?
post #10 of 78
Horrible
post #11 of 78
So did they end up finding the cologne?
post #12 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by ziffy321 View Post

Self defense isn't stabbing someone in the chest. We'll see ....

then what is?
post #13 of 78
People these days...
post #14 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by somejoe13f View Post

then what is?

maybe stabbing in the back?
post #15 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by somejoe13f View Post

then what is?

It's NOT stabbing someone in the chest like a coward.
post #16 of 78
Shit!
post #17 of 78
Just a shout-out to Melvournis for his avatar - who really is an Avatar!
post #18 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indie_Guy View Post

Why am I not surprised?

Well, why aren't you? Does this happen every week in Jersey?
post #19 of 78
when keeping it real goes wrong
post #20 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Rudi View Post

Just a shout-out to Melvournis for his avatar - who really is an Avatar!

Thanks Dr Rudi. My only hope is it doesn't offend any Hindus here. We did have some problems with the image of Kali (I'm not sure) on women's swimsuits about a month back. They had to be withdrawn.
post #21 of 78
So instead of calling 911 that can dispatch an ambulance with Paramedics/EMTs who can stabilize a patient en-route to the hospital, they waste time by driving to a clinic. Brilliant.
post #22 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by ziffy321 View Post

It's NOT stabbing someone in the chest like a coward.

There's no way in the world that the parking attendant is going to be charged with anything serious. For one the father not only started it at a public workplace, he was the first to pick up a weapon and was trying to do bodily harm to the attendant, there's video showing him doing it, he's an ex con which says it all. This is no different that someone attacking you with a weapon and you pick up a rock and kill him by hitting him in the head. Yes, it is self defense in every form of the law.
post #23 of 78
I may have misread the story, but it sounded to me more like this assessment would be more accurate:

"This is no different that someone attacking you with a weapon and you pick up a rock and kill his son by hitting him in the head."

For me, there in lies the problem.
post #24 of 78
Doesn't matter if it was the son or the father. Fact is they were both attacking and the father had already struck the parking attendant with the shovel. From that moment on it was self defense. The fact that it wasn't a knife and just a sharp makeshift object solidifies the fact. Compound it with the fact that the father was making an accusation of theft and had no proof, was an ex con charged with selling heroin and other felonies, came in to a workplace with a weapon, and was the one making the threats and went through with them. If this wasn't done in a public workplace then this kid might be in trouble, but this should have never happened and wouldn't have if not for the aggression of the son and father. Aggressor vs defender.
post #25 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by silentrich View Post

Doesn't matter if it was the son or the father. Fact is they were both attacking

Makes a huge difference. The father had the shovel, not the son. He was unarmed. Only a coward stabs an unarmed man. Only POSSIBLY justified if the father is stabbed. And someone's past doesn't put a bulls eye on his back. Probably won't happen but the stabber should fry.
post #26 of 78
Well, what can you say?

Don't store a $200 bottle of fragrance in your car in plain view. Don't attack innocent parking attendants with shovels.

If I were being attacked by a man with a shovel and his son joined in and started pummeling me for no reason, and I had a knife, I'd be mighty tempted to lash out with it, too. One whack in a wrong place with a shovel and you're dead.

On the other hand, if a were a parking attendant and thought I might need to defend myself, I'd probably be carrying a taser or pepper spray, not a knife.
post #27 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiveJazz View Post

One whack in a wrong place with a shovel and you're dead.

...

On the other hand, if a were a parking attendant and thought I might need to defend myself, I'd probably be carrying a taser or pepper spray, not a knife.


Exactly.
post #28 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by ziffy321 View Post

Makes a huge difference. The father had the shovel, not the son. He was unarmed. Only a coward stabs an unarmed man. Only POSSIBLY justified if the father is stabbed. And someone's past doesn't put a bulls eye on his back. Probably won't happen but the stabber should fry.

It won't happen because it's self defense. You can't go around attacking people with weapons or no weapon. It's not like the kid was an innocent victim. The kid was taking part in an assault and would have went to jail. Instead he got his ass handed to him and is now dead because his father was an ex convict loser and he made a choice to behave like his father and resort to violence. Now his father is blaming society, racism, blah..blah..blah. You reap what you sow.
post #29 of 78
It wasn't a knife. It was something he picked up that was sharp when the father and son started trying to beat him to death.
post #30 of 78

You have to wonder what a parking attendant was doing with a homemade shank on the job. Still, when being attacked with a shovel, you use what you have.
post #31 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiveJazz View Post

You have to wonder what a parking attendant was doing with a homemade shank on the job. Still, when being attacked with a shovel, you use what you have.

I carry a hose with a piece of lead in it my car and own a glock and a shotgun which I keep in the house of course. Really sad that non violent people have to protect themselves in this manner, but like you said someone's going to die and it ain't gonna be me. In this case it really wouldn't surprise me if they charge the father with manslaughter. The most ironic part about the whole situation is that the father was put in prison multiple times for ROBBERY!
post #32 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by ziffy321 View Post

It's NOT stabbing someone in the chest like a coward.

WHAT?........ if the aggressor's didnt have a blunt metal object then stabbing someone "might" be considered cowardly.
post #33 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by somejoe13f View Post

WHAT?........ if the aggressor's didnt have a blunt metal object then stabbing someone "might" be considered cowardly.

He stabbed an unarmed man ... not the father who had the shovel. I've seen/been involved in fights over the years and never has the aggressor been murdered.
post #34 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by silentrich View Post

In this case it really wouldn't surprise me if they charge the father with manslaughter.

I wouldn't surprise me either. Things like this always remind me how twisted our laws can be. If you go out and shoot someone in the head, you'll likely get life or the death penalty. But if you get drunk and run someone over and kill them, it's almost always manslaughter with a much lighter sentence.
post #35 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by ziffy321 View Post

He stabbed an unarmed man ... not the father who had the shovel. I've seen/been involved in fights over the years and never has the aggressor been murdered.

The very presence of the shovel introduces an element of desperation, though. If you're being attacked by two people, and one of them has a shovel, and the shovel has already been used effectively, the lizard brain is going to take over. You don't want to be grappling with an unarmed kid, then get clocked in the head from behind with a shovel.

I do find this to be very sad and uncalled for (it's a bottle of fragrance, for crying out loud!), and ideally the attendants should have had other means of defending themselves. But I'm sorry, if someone commits or joins into a random violent assault and ends up dead...well...they shouldn't have been assaulting people in the first place. Somewhere along the line, someone you attack is going to have a homemade shank.
post #36 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by ziffy321 View Post

He stabbed an unarmed man ... not the father who had the shovel. I've seen/been involved in fights over the years and never has the aggressor been murdered.

Yeah the son and the father were the aggressors. Under the law the father could be prosecuted for Criminally Negligent Manslaugther for putting his son in a dangerous situation and then directly contributing to his death through his reckless actions.
post #37 of 78
Here's the real story that's just surfaced: The father blind bought Aventus at Neimans. When the parking attendant drenched himself in it, the father then identified it as an ashy batch #. Took his frustration out on the parking attendant and now is going to sue Creed for the death of his son.
post #38 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by ziffy321 View Post

I wouldn't surprise me either. Things like this always remind me how twisted our laws can be. If you go out and shoot someone in the head, you'll likely get life or the death penalty. But if you get drunk and run someone over and kill them, it's almost always manslaughter with a much lighter sentence.

How are our laws twisted? Suggesting that causing the death of another should be treated and/or punished in the same way is a ridiculous assertion. One of the most fundamental assumptions of our legal system is that in most cases an illegal act, or actus reus, must be present along with mens rea, or the guilty mind, at the time of the offense. A serial murderer, for example, has the intention of killing someone, regardless of if it is premeditated or not. A drunk driver who is at fault in a fatal accident in all likelihood has absolutely no intention of causing a death. Just because the two result in the same outcome, a death, is not enough to say that they should be punished likewise. That is why you have a distinction in law in regards to the severity of the crime and how it is charged.

Quote:
Probably won't happen but the stabber should fry.

I find this quite disturbing that it is even suggested that a man acting in self-defense should face capital murder charges. It doesn't matter if the deceased was the one attacking someone with a shovel or not, he was still committing assault and the man has the right to defend himself against multiple attackers. Before you continue to argue that it is not right to stab someone who is not attacking without weapon, realize that someone's hands can be just as lethal. If you are ever in a situation where it is absolutely necessary for you to defend your life by taking another, be glad that you are legally able to. Thankfully we live in a society where acting in self-defense is not something that is the equivalent of murder. The only person who is obviously at fault for the outcome of the death is the father. Depending on the jurisdiction's statutes, it is possible that he could be charged with murder under the felony murder rule.

Also, this thread has gotten way off topic and should probably be moved to the off topic forum.
post #39 of 78
silentrich you may have to change your username, because you are not so very silent today......some great points made, too.

I followed this incident on the news yesterday- what a tragedy for the young man to lose his life after being swept into a totally avoidable incident by his idiot of a father. The graduation gift could have been anything and the dad might have reacted the same way, so let's not feel bad as BNers that cologne got in the news.
So many poor and irreversible choices made in this incident- from many of the parties, beginning to end. And the media circus will stir it up even more for a long time....

karmapolizei qoute- I find this quite disturbing that it is even suggested that a man acting in self-defense should face capital murder charges.
Yes, me too!
post #40 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by knit at nite View Post

silentrich you may have to change your username, because you are not so very silent today......some great points made, too.

I followed this incident on the news yesterday- what a tragedy for the young man to lose his life after being swept into a totally avoidable incident by his idiot of a father. The graduation gift could have been anything and the dad might have reacted the same way, so let's not feel bad as BNers that cologne got in the news.
So many poor and irreversible choices made in this incident- from many of the parties, beginning to end. And the media circus will stir it up even more for a long time....

I have my moments i guess. lol.

Totally agree with you and it's a shame that the young man didn't have a better role model in his life.
post #41 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by karmapolizei View Post

How are our laws twisted? Suggesting that causing the death of another should be treated and/or punished in the same way is a ridiculous assertion.

Didn't say that. I'm saying that if I want to go out and murder someone, all I have to do is pound a few beers and get in my car and run them over instead of shooting them. That way I can knock a few decades off my sentence according to our laws. Not right ...
post #42 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by karmapolizei View Post

I find this quite disturbing that it is even suggested that a man acting in self-defense should face capital murder charges. It doesn't matter if the deceased was the one attacking someone with a shovel or not, he was still committing assault and the man has the right to defend himself against multiple attackers. Before you continue to argue that it is not right to stab someone who is not attacking without weapon, realize that someone's hands can be just as lethal. If you are ever in a situation where it is absolutely necessary for you to defend your life by taking another, be glad that you are legally able to.

So by your logic, Josh Beckett nails Derek Jeter with a pitch. Jeter charges the mound and attacks Beckett. That gives Beckett the right to stick a shiv in Jeter's temple ...??? By your logic ???
post #43 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by silentrich View Post

Here's the real story that's just surfaced: The father blind bought Aventus at Neimans. When the parking attendant drenched himself in it, the father then identified it as an ashy batch #. Took his frustration out on the parking attendant and now is going to sue Creed for the death of his son.

Lol ..
post #44 of 78
I don't live in a bubble, but I filter what I read and I come to these boards to escape the headlines. My fragrance collection is my solace from the madness of this world.
post #45 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by ziffy321 View Post

Didn't say that. I'm saying that if I want to go out and murder someone, all I have to do is pound a few beers and get in my car and run them over instead of shooting them. That way I can knock a few decades off my sentence according to our laws. Not right ...

If you want to murder someone and you follow through with it consuming alcohol and driving will in no way lessen your charge. Most drunk drivers have no intention or desire of killing anyone, it's just something that happens out of their own recklessness. That is not the same thing as murder in which the death is brought about intentionally.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ziffy321 View Post

So by your logic, Josh Beckett nails Derek Jeter with a pitch. Jeter charges the mound and attacks Beckett. That gives Beckett the right to stick a shiv in Jeter's temple ...??? By your logic ???

By my logic a man has the right to defend his life by taking another should it be required. I have said nothing more than that. If someone assaults you (with or without a weapon) and demonstrates that they have the intention of causing you serious bodily harm or killing you. Are you really equating something like charging the mound in baseball to being assaulted with a shovel by multiple attackers? Charging the mound really has nothing to do with actually causing serious harm to the pitcher. Stop coming up with ridiculous, off-the-wall scenarios that have no basis in the real world.
post #46 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by karmapolizei View Post

Stop coming up with ridiculous, off-the-wall scenarios that have no basis in the real world.

The problem isn't just your narrow minded thinking but how woefully you try to defend it. According to the law, an assault is an assault and by your own words, that gives the person being attacked the right to kill. And that's the dumbest thing I ever heard. As I said, some fights I've seen over the years really did involve the attacker trying to harm someone and no one ever got killed. What happened across the river from here was a fight. And I stand by my opinion that an unarmed kid's life shouldn't be taken because he was involved in a fight. It's murder, not defense.

And by the way, how are you gonna prove I got in my car and ran someone over on purpose after I was drinking???
post #47 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by ziffy321 View Post

So by your logic, Josh Beckett nails Derek Jeter with a pitch. Jeter charges the mound and attacks Beckett. That gives Beckett the right to stick a shiv in Jeter's temple ...??? By your logic ???

That's about the only way Jeter can get on base. His fragrance sucks balls also. Avon???? Seriously????
post #48 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by ziffy321 View Post

Makes a huge difference. The father had the shovel, not the son. He was unarmed. Only a coward stabs an unarmed man. Only POSSIBLY justified if the father is stabbed. And someone's past doesn't put a bulls eye on his back. Probably won't happen but the stabber should fry.

Uh no way in hell man. If two huge dudes are coming at me, one armed with a shovel, and one an enormous football player, you damn well better believe that I am going to attack full throttle with every weapon at my disposal. That is not cowardice, it's common sense.
post #49 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by monsieur_sparkle View Post

If two huge dudes are coming at me, one armed with a shovel, and one an enormous football player, you damn well better believe that I am going to attack full throttle with every weapon at my disposal. That is not cowardice, it's common sense.

^This

Thank God for our 2nd Amendment Rights, and God forbid anyone ever have to use them.

And can we get this thread closed or moved already?? This political/moral debate and the bickering back and forth just feels wrong on this forum. No one is ever going to agree on any side. We might as well be debating abortion while we're at it....
post #50 of 78
Sparkle: EXACTLY. Concisely stated.
post #51 of 78
It isn't interesting and it had to do with a lot more than cologne.
post #52 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by ziffy321 View Post

The problem isn't just your narrow minded thinking but how woefully you try to defend it. According to the law, an assault is an assault and by your own words, that gives the person being attacked the right to kill. And that's the dumbest thing I ever heard. As I said, some fights I've seen over the years really did involve the attacker trying to harm someone and no one ever got killed. What happened across the river from here was a fight. And I stand by my opinion that an unarmed kid's life shouldn't be taken because he was involved in a fight. It's murder, not defense.

And by the way, how are you gonna prove I got in my car and ran someone over on purpose after I was drinking???

You know, based on your collective comments so far and how you continue to conduct yourself with over the top sensationalism, if this were any other website I would assume that you are trolling, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt. Narrow minded should not be used to describe someone that has a different point of view than you do, by the way. I have never claimed that the legal definition of assault is in itself an excusable use of deadly force, nor will I, nor does the law necessarily. One thing you should be aware of is that what constitutes assault (and all criminal offenses) varies depending on jurisdiction. As a general rule, and my view is in agreement, deadly force is acceptable in situations where the individual feels another is putting is or intends to cause serious bodily harm or death (whether the offender is armed or otherwise).

Before you criticize someone as being a coward or as being deserving of the death penalty (your words), perhaps you should consider that neither of us will never know the full circumstances of the incident. From reading the two links and the links from it to previous stories, both of the attendants had retreated after initially being attacked. They locked themselves into a room when the kid busted into it. This is not a case of a juvenile fight where both parties actually want to fight. There is something called the duty to retreat which generally states that if you can remove yourself from the situation rather than use deadly force you should. The attendants had tried to withdraw themselves from the attack and the kid and his father essentially backed them into a corner. One thing you forget is that another person does not inherently have the right to cause serious bodily harm or death to you. From the information available, this is nothing more than a case of justified homicide brought about by the reckless actions of the father. Defending yourself from serious bodily harm or death after trying to retreat is certainly not cowardly; it is an unfortunately incident, but one that is justified nonetheless.

Anyways, I have conveyed my opinions well enough, of which I certainly stand by. If you feel that makes me narrow-minded because you disagree then by all means label me as such. I will not continue this debate, though, as this is certainly not the appropriate place for it.
post #53 of 78
This is no longer about cologne. Keep it civil.
post #54 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by monsieur_sparkle View Post

Uh no way in hell man. If two huge dudes are coming at me, one armed with a shovel, and one an enormous football player, you damn well better believe that I am going to attack full throttle with every weapon at my disposal. That is not cowardice, it's common sense.

I would attack full throttle too to defend myself. Still doesn't give me a license to kill.

I'm not trying to stir the pot here I'm just stating my opinion .. a fight doesn't give anyone the right to take someone's life. I honestly don't believe they were trying to KILL the parking attendants because of a bottle of cologne .. especially the kid. It was a fight that went too far and I feel that if no charges are filed for this death it's unjust. Just my opinion.
post #55 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by ziffy321 View Post

I would attack full throttle too to defend myself. Still doesn't give me a license to kill.

I'm not trying to stir the pot here I'm just stating my opinion .. a fight doesn't give anyone the right to take someone's life. I honestly don't believe they were trying to KILL the parking attendants because of a bottle of cologne .. especially the kid. It was a fight that went too far and I feel that if no charges are filed for this death it's unjust. Just my opinion.

This is the problem: you are mistaking some crazed ex-criminal and his son assaulting some innocent dudes who are just trying to do their job with a fight. No, that is not the same as some scuffle with school yard chums. It's serious business, and the law should in no way bully people into becoming victims by punishing them for defending themselves from violent criminals. I am a layman. I am not a big guy, and I am sure as hell not Captain America. If some dude and his son tried to bash my head in with a damn shovel, I would have no problem whatsoever defending myself with whatever tools or weapons were available. If that resulted in the death of one of my attackers, fine. I would rather kill a criminal than find myself lying on the ground in a pool of blood and brain matter with my head smashed open.

I'm glad that these poor fellows were able to defend themselves from the madmen and I sure hope that no charges are filed against them. I imagine that being attacked while doing their duty would be traumatic enough.
post #56 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by monsieur_sparkle View Post

This is the problem: you are mistaking some crazed ex-criminal and his son assaulting some innocent dudes who are just trying to do their job with a fight. No, that is not the same as some scuffle with school yard chums. It's serious business, and the law should in no way bully people into becoming victims by punishing them for defending themselves from violent criminals. I am a layman. I am not a big guy, and I am sure as hell not Captain America. If some dude and his son tried to bash my head in with a damn shovel, I would have no problem whatsoever defending myself with whatever tools or weapons were available. If that resulted in the death of one of my attackers, fine. I would rather kill a criminal than find myself lying on the ground in a pool of blood and brain matter with my head smashed open.

I'm glad that these poor fellows were able to defend themselves from the madmen and I sure hope that no charges are filed against them. I imagine that being attacked while doing their duty would be traumatic enough.

Respectfully, I'm not confusing anything with anything. More than likely, one of the attendants DID steal the cologne which started the whole mess. Yes, the son did have a choice, to pull his father away and say "forget it Dad". He chose not to do that and in the end lost his life. But it's more a matter of "justified death" to me. There are many other ways to diffuse a violent situation than murder. I just think if the stabber walks, it sends out a terrible message that anyone being assaulted has the right to pick up a sharp object and aim for their heart ... instead of an eye or such. And I honestly think if that was your brother in the casket, you would think similarly. As I'm sure everyone at his funeral thinks.
post #57 of 78
It was the realization that - in the event of fire - my entire collection is worth less than my dog's life, that helped me put fragrance in true perspective. There is a need for beauty among all people, just as much as there is a need for life, since life without beauty is a curse. But life comes first.
post #58 of 78
Order in the Basenotes court!!
post #59 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by scenternerian View Post

Order in the Basenotes court!!

LOL

Damn straight! We're guys who like perfume. If we can't be civilized, nobody can!
post #60 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redneck Perfumisto View Post

LOL

Damn straight! We're guys who like perfume. If we can't be civilized, nobody can!


I'll drink to that
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