Recent Lutens reformulations - Chergui and Gris Clair

Fleurs d'Oranger I noticed had changed 1-2 years ago.

It used to be the best FdO on the planet - perfect OB with both darkness and light.

The current has much less darkness, it's almost all light, and in an almost shrieky-sunny way.

First, thanks for starting this thread. I was thinking the same thing you are when I read that initial thread mentioning Malle scents. I don't care for Malle, but it got me thinking about other brands with good fragrances

Chergui has already been reformulated a few years ago. I know Trebor can confirm this. There is a juice color difference. I have the second formula. Its nuclear. But it is also too sweet. I like to smell it, but I don't like to wear it.

So are you saying that there is a third formula ?

Also, I am a massive fan of Gris Clair. If what you say is true, I may as well reach for some meds. I love the bottle I got a year an half ago ! A simple lavender fragrance will not cut it. There is too much of that junk out there anyways.

The key thing here is how to tell the box's apart. Come on guys, lets show those Dior Homme Intense humpers we know how to sort out vintage from new !

Thanks Will. I'll keep an eye out for that logo. It looks like I will have to .....yet again....get a backup of something that has changed significantly.

One of the really irritating aspects of my addiction to fragrances is drastic reformula's ( and discontinuations). Essentially I feel compelled to get an extra bottle.

I guess I'm lucky or unlucky as I don't perceive many of these reformulations.

Serge Lutens reformulations have been going on for a few years now. There isn't a specific point in time when this occurred, as nearly all the older releases have been affected to some extent but at different times.

And, no, Arabie isn't still the same, I'm afraid. Yes, it still smells the way Arabie should smell but it's thinner and less dark. If I was more experienced, at the time, I would have demanded my money back:

http://www.basenotes.net/threads/189...my-Arabie-Help!

Luckily, I managed to track down a couple of vintage bottles that confirmed what I feared.

As for other creations, Chene, Fumerie Turque and even MMK have been reformulated. There are many more but that's off the top of my head.


I think that a good way to sum up most of the reformulations - many of them lack the density and darkness they once possessed. Then there's the tenacity...


I'm afraid it's not as simple as that. As I mentioned before, many reformulations took place before the packaging change. The only way to distinguish one formulation from the other is by looking at the listed ingredients/components at the back of the box. Unless you can decipher the batch numbers, there's no other box detail that will help you. Unfortunately, if you don't know what's listed for a particular formulation, it'll be a complete shot in the dark.


With regards to Gris Clair, I once owned two bottles of it. They were both purchased in 2007 but they smelt slightly different - one had more emphasis on the smoky lavender, while the other had the lavender more integrated and less 'menacing'. Chances are that one was a reformulation and the other was the original formulation (but I never bothered investigating further).

I completely gave up on Serge Lutens because:

1) He lied during an interview (circa 2006/07) about never reformulating his creations, when reformulations had been occurring even before then.

2) Unlike Guerlain, there's hardly any way to tell the packaging of two different formulations apart. The least he could have done was to leave the odd clue in the packaging design for the perfume enthusiasts.

3) He, more or less, went mainstream from 2007 onwards and it really wasn't necessary.

I can't wait for the brown juice Chergui to become "rare" and in demand like DHI silver collars. Not just for the redundant threads that will be created, but I'll get to rape some poor bastid for my unloved bottle.

And it may no longer be brown when you get round to selling it. Btw, watch your language...

Thanks for adding to the thread Trebor I find it interesting that not too many people note the Fumerie Turque reformulation, but I think it could be for many reasons ( ie, people haven't gotten around to getting a new bottle....its potent and a 50ml can last years)

It is really unfortunate it is not as simple as checking out the package ( and thanks for the warning as well). Now I find this to be highly disrespectful of the consumner by the Lutens ( not him per se, but whomever is making these insensitive decisions). How the bleeping heck can a person seek out a vintage without taking expensive risks ?! Hopefully online sellers are willing to cooperate. This kind of tactic is just brutal. I guess I have to decide soon whether or not I need another bottle.

Perfumer companies like Serge Lutens want us to fall in love with there fragrances. They give us a nice neat pamplet in their boxes to explain and write poetically about their creations. Yet, they change what we love !

I totally see why you have given up on Lutens. Your 3 points are spot on.

No worries!

Fumerie Turque only lasted a couple of hours on my skin, so I was never happy with it. But others have stated that it was reformulated, probably before it became a limited edition export. The Bois series is another example - reformulated some time before the repackaging exercise.

There is another way to obtain vintage Serge Lutens but this only applies to the earlier creations. The original packaging was white and purple, of which I've only seen in bell jar form. However, these are very rare and, with respect to the bell jars, could easily be tampered with if previously used.

Well, the most important thing is the reformulation that you, personally, hold closest to your heart. You have the advantage of finding the formulation you're looking for, due to some old stock floating around. However, for those who discovered this house much earlier, it'll really be tough to find a pre-2007 formulation of anything Serge Lutens.

I too find it surprisingly short lived, though I'm willing to forgive it this.
surfacing - how do you find the most recent formulation of fumerie turque ?

I have not tried a recent forumula, actually. I was wondering if I should seek out a full bottle of FT, but I don't know about that anymore

The decant I have at home is from almost 2 and a half years ago. Its pretty strong and lasts really well. It last at least 12 hours on my skin. I thought it was "too much" for me, but recently I appreciate it much more. Its far more interesting to me than Chergui, which is just over the top sweet to me ( that is, the bottle I have, and not the recent reformula that Will has cited)

So....I don't think that really helps you

I actually just ordered another bottle of Fumerie Turque and am hoping not to be disappointed too badly.

Well, I'm heading to Barney's in a few weeks and considering a purchase of Chergui based on my decant from TPC. My guess is they are the same formulation, but I'm not sure. I have a bottle of Gris Clair which is at least four years old. Definitely smokey lavender. I'll need to do a little comaprison shopping down in Chicago after X-Mas. BTW any thoughts on Borneo 1834? Is that one worth a sniff? I usually burn out my nose after sampling three or four scents. While I'm at Barney's, I want to save my nose for the good ones!

I am still trying to understand this one. I thought this was right up my alley but on the first few times I wore it, I couldn't get past the cat pee note.

I'm a bit skeptical of the claims of reformulation. I recently bought a brand new bottle of FT (less than 2 months ago) and it lasts well over 8 hours on my skin and smells exactly like my original bottle did (i saved 2 decants). The Chergui reformulation I'm not too certain of either. Color changes aside, I've heard people say the older version was more sweet, and now in this thread someone said the newer one was more sweet. Also, and I'm sure I don't need to point this out but I will anyway, the same recipe of a fragrance made 5 years ago will smell slightly different than the fragrance from a batch made this year will. As scents age, their character changes - thus it makes it easier to assume a reformulation has occurred when it really hasn't.

I guess, at least for now, I'm remaining skeptical about the reformulations of Chergui and FT. Not intending to suggest anyone is spreading false information - but I think right now nobody knows. If any reformulations are going on, my nose certainly doesn't perceive them.

I think mentally, anyone is capable of convincing themselves there is a difference in smell. Scent can have a very strong placebo effect, especially if you want to believe you're smelling two different things. I'm really not intending to suggest anyone here is letting their imagination carry them away nor am I suggesting I'm right and others are wrong - but based on my experiences I'm rather skeptical about the accusations of reformulation lodged against Chergui and FT. MKK could be a different story but for now I'm inclined to believe Serge. As foolish as some people may think I am for doing so ;p

I appreciate the good news, flouris. Subtle differences I think I could look past. I'll keep my fingers crossed about FT. I am quite confident that the reformulation of Cuir Mauresque is less strong, less leathery--but I'd be happy to be convinced otherwise.

The SL reformulations are a very real thing. He even implied it himself in a recent interview:


Link to interview: http://www.fragrantica.com/news/Serg...ers--2728.html

I can personally confirm that there have been changes in FT and Chergui. The rest I'm not sure of because I'm not as familiar with them. Fleur d'Oranger, MKK, Arabie I think *may* be reformulated, but I haven't lived with them long enough to be sure. In the end, I feel that the SL reformulations have been done in much more "good taste" than I've seen with other houses.

I think there are also minor batch variations as well - but not enough to be alarmed.

Yet, there is another one... if there was an exclusive and an export version of one and the same perfume (e.g. Chergui) I would always get the exclusive (living in Europe). I am very happy with my dark brown Chergui in the black labelled bell jar.
The original Shiseidos you are referring to, I think, all had a golden seal wire wrapped around. My Rose de Nuit has still wrapped it around the bell's neck.

Unfortunately I've had the same feeling about CM although I'm not 100% sure.

So, how would you explain the listed components on the box changing from time to time? I've seen this, with my own eyes, with Chergui and am certain that it's been reformulated at least twice (setting aside colourings of the juice).


I think that's wise but, once again, not completely full-proof. I was once in a conundrum about Chene, when it became a limited edition. I was in Paris, at the time, and could have easily purchased either the 50ml or the bell jar. I went with the bell jar. If I didn't sufficiently sample the 50ml at Sephora, I wouldn't have known any better but the bell jar smelt weaker. I complained about it and sent it back to Paris to be replaced (with the typical reassurance that nothing had been changed) but the second bell jar was no different. From that moment onwards, I refused to purchase any more SL fragrances.


Thanks for the insight! However, chances of an unopened or unused bottle of an original Shiseido bell jar is almost close to zero. I was referring to the ones I've previously seen - all of which have been partially used. Hey, how about a photo?

My only personal regret about Serge Lutens is that I never discovered their creations during the late 1990s. What an experience that would have been!

Hi Trebor,
Mine was a personal gift but unloved jus... so, I got in one of three substantial swaps with the same person.
I posted it in the Bought thread on the women's side as I feel more 'at home' there.
Here you go...

Maybe my BN buddy Mon-Petit, who is much more knowledgeable on the Lutens can come in here, too...
I agree with you, Trebor, I have lost interest in Serge Lutens, but am very happy with what I have (incl. back-ups).

^ That's it! Many thanks for that.

If you have the time I'd love it if you could post up the ingredients lists from both the older Chergui and the newer Chergui. I was under the impression the listed "ingredients" are alcohol, water, modifiers, coloring agents, fixatives, isolates (coumarin, eugenol, etc; things the IFRA wouldn't dare ban as virtually every fragrance on the market depends on them). I would be more likely to conclude the ingredients list is a requirement by certain EU laws and if the ingredients list changed it would be because of a change in what the law requires a company to disclose on said ingredients list, not necessarily a fragrant reformulation. I don't recall ever seeing a company list an actual recipe of ingredients on their ingredients list.

Again, I'm not saying you're wrong nor am I saying I'm right, but I don't think the ingredient list would give any indication regarding a reformulation that would alter how a fragrance smells. Perhaps different modifiers were used in an older SL, or different materials to color the juice, or different fixatives, but that's all one would likely glean from the ingredients listed on a box of SL.

I hear you. I'd love to but I no longer have the information, which was obtained around the time that I first reported the colour change of Chergui. What I can say is that you are right about the listed components but the key here is the order in which they are listed. I remember the two Chergui lists being almost identical in content but not in the order the components were listed.

if someone has a new box of Chergui and wants to list the ingredients I'll go get my box from upstairs and we can compare

There are people who don't notice the reformulations. I know a woman who's wearing Chanel n°5 for more than 25 years. I asked her "omg, it should have been modified many times since the time". Her response was like " what are you talking about? It's still exactly the same !".

These are the people who we should fear the most...

Trebor i'm sorry for your Chêne misadventure, when did you bought this bell jar ?
Have you tried it with a sprayer too ?

bueller... bueller...

Ah, no need!

I think I purchased the bell jar in Nov/Dec 2009, around the time Chene was available in 50ml. I noticed that the 50ml had more initial oomph and lasted a little longer than the bell jar. I tried the 50ml the day before personally buying the bell jar, in order to decide if it was bottle-worthy.

I'm starting to think you guys live off of decants and talk.


Alcohol, Parfum, Dipropylene Glycol, Aqua, Coumarin, Linalool, Butyl Methoxydibenzoylmethane, Geraniol, Benzyl Alcohol, Citronellol, Limonene, Benzyl Benzoate, Tris (Tetramethylhydroxypiperidinol) Citrate, Citral, CI 60730 (Ext Violet 2), Farnesol, CI 19140 (Yellow 5), CI 14700 (Red 4), Eugenol, Isoeugenol, Benzyl Cinnamate, Butylphenyl Methylpropional


Brown juice, Palais Royale logo on bottle and box. SNE09 X

the old one doesnt have red 4....they added the red to make the green version brown.....jk lol

there is totally a difference! I have samples of almost all of them from 4 or more years ago......then I bought a bottle of chergui around the time they were upset about the brown green thing.....mine was brown but it was a red brown the old sample I had was a blacker brown....and it was alot more full and thick then the newer bottle.

I am wearing arabie from a 4 year old sample now and its really thick honey smelling

That's exactly it and was at least sold until spring/summer 2010 in the bell jar.

I did not keep the box of the newer, thinner juice in order to compare the ingredients list.

The older juice is thicker because with time some of the alcohol evaporates, creating a slightly higher concentration of juice and thus a thicker consistency. This is why it may seem as though "aged" fragrances wear longer on the skin (and also may have a warmer and more rounded olfactory body due to head notes fading with time). This is especially true if you have a 5-6 year old bell jar as it opens up to exposed air and thus much more of the alcohol will evaporate as compared to the export bottles (unless you are using the twist cap as opposed to the sprayer). Again, not saying I'm right and others are wrong, but the only indicators people seem to be referencing are ingredients lists, color changes and thickness/consistency. To me, a true reformulation would be clearly evident in an olfactory sense, not a visual one.

I'm looking forward to try the "new" Chergui. Years ago I had a decant and thought I would like it more if it was less sweet.

The 'new' is not less sweet as far as I am concerned... just plain thinner and a less 'round' composition with signifcantly less longevity. My bell jar jus easily lasts from early morning till night (which is exceptional on my skin).

I'm still finding it hard to believe I'm the only one with a non-decant bottle.



Post those ingredients you guppies!

Here from my bell jarr (in this order):
Alcohol, Parfum (fragrance), dipropylene glycol, triethylhexanoin, aquat (water), coumarin, linalool, butyl methoxydibenzoylmethane, geraniol, benzyl alcohol, citronellol, limonene, benzyl benzoate, citral, farnesol, CI 26100 (RED 17), eugenol, isoeugenol, CI 42090 (BLUE 1), CI 19140 (YELLOW 5)

I think it's a recent batch...

Deleted all the matching ingredients, above is what we're left with.

I think it happened well before (around 2006 for the biggest changement). I have a 2003 bell bottle and there is a freshness, a lime-tree note and a green rose start who are completly disapeared now. Also the tuberose was powerful, more sensual and much more dimensional (i find the actual "flat").
Now it's orange blossom sirup, spices and synthetic white musc

I think it's plain silly to question the reformulation of "Chergui". I ask myself what would be wrong with a nose that doesn't smell this huge difference from 2 bottles.

Hello, I'm new to posting here (I just joined today) but I've been reading the forum for a while. I know that this subject has been beat to death but I'm intrigued by this information on Chergui. First off, thanks for providing enough information to stop me from buying any new 'reforumulations' of the juice. This forum definitely saved me A LOT of money and disappointment.

Here's my story on Chergui: In 2008, I received a sample from TPC and I've never fell so in love with a fragrance as I did with that sample. I promptly bought an Export bottle from Luckyscent... the juice was brownish-orange with a beige label. It was less sweet, more 'green/fresh' and not as longlasting. It was a faint reminder of the TPC sample. I thought that maybe the sample was from an Exclusive bottle and not the export, therefore the ingredients, in particular the base, were different? I contacted TPC and they swore that the sample came from a recent Export bottle (ie. not a belljar). Hmmm. In late 2010, a friend was going to Paris so they brought me back a bell jar. This juice was much more aligned with my TPC sample (sweeter, rosier, etc, than the export) but still not as long lasting. WTF? I promptly sold the export bottle on ebay. The bell jar was as close as I could get to the TPC sample.

Based on the ingredients posted here, I noticed that a BellJar with Batchcode SNE09 X (supposedly created March 2009) and another with Batchcode RLZ04 X (supposedly created in Jan 2009) share the exact same order of ingredients. However, a recent batchcode has triethylhexanoin listed in the first 5 ingredients, and no mention of Tris (Tetramethylhydroxypiperidinol) Citrate in the last few ingredients. This would lead me to believe that a reformulation occured sometime after Spring 2009. HOWEVER, my belljar was purchased new, wrapped, and direct from Paris in 2010 and has a batchcode of QW508 X (supposedly created February 2008). Funny thing is the ingredients on the box line up with the 'recent' one listed above: triethylhexanoin listed in the first 5 ingredients, and no mention of Tris (Tetramethylhydroxypiperidinol) Citrate. Based on this, I think the boxes may not reflect the actual ingredients in the juice.