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IFRA rules re their sensible use - Oakmoss and others

post #1 of 32
1/30/12 at 1:39am
Thread Starter 
There has oft been much comment and even a seemingly blase attitude sometimes amongst Indie perfumers to the IFRA rules and other perfumers regulations. Myself included within this during experimental learning curves.

I just wanted to record here for the DIY record, that I was testing an irritating but beautiful draft fragrance I had made some time ago, by solo testing each ingredient, and my hand came up in a rash straight away after testing one raw ingredient at a 5% dilution.... and guess what... it was oakmoss!

Blast. That perfume was lovely too. Oakmoss would have been much less than 5% within the whole perfume brew, but possibly over the IFRA guidelines. I didn't make any final maths conclusions at the time. (I will add that it was only a learners experimental perfume and not destined for anything or anyone).

It may just be that I have a poor Oakmoss, and I have a new one I haven't opened yet. I shall report when I do.

Has anyone else got experimental perfumes that they have had to give up on or modify and concede that the rules may just be there for good reason?

Has anyone else had a bad reaction/s to certain ingredients in particular?
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post #2 of 32
1/30/12 at 2:47am
Interesting but not in the least scientific. 5.0% is way too high a concentration to test anything, and a test group of just one is meaningless. I have worked in the perfumery industry for over 30 years and for most of that time have handled fragrances and raw materials at 100.0% concentration. I have never suffered an allergic reaction to anything. So what? I am lucky is all.

The list of allergens was created by dermatologists because they were the most common sources of allergic reaction. It does not mean that everyone will be allergic to them. It means that some people can develop an allergic reaction to them. I have asked on a number of occasions what percentage of the population shows an allergic reaction to any of these materials, and have never been given a satisfactory answer.
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post #3 of 32
1/30/12 at 3:21am
Thread Starter 
Sorry, and I agree not scientific at all. I thought it was just interesting that it was so fast to irritate whereas many other of my ingredients I trial at 10% to learn their smell. Maybe i am learning these smells at far too high a concentration.

I am still very much a learner here and I really appreciate your comments, even when critical. They all go in the book and get heeded.

I just wanted to add that it wasn't that high in the perfume, just the raw ingredient.
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post #4 of 32
1/30/12 at 3:56am
I have never had a reaction to any fragrance or raw ingredient. However, during a recent visit with my sister I noticed her house smelled particularly bad, bad to the point of making my nose itch. She pointed to a lavender scented, plug-in air freshener. Eventually, my eyes were watering, and the smell was making me a bit sick. She agreed to move it to a different part of the house. Upon arriving home I realized that everything in my suitcase smelled like this vile air-freshener. It came out in the wash but is the closest I have come to a "reaction."
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post #5 of 32
1/30/12 at 4:07am
I've just had a reaction to a lavender/chamomile scented air freshener, too. The stuff is horrible - it smells like neither lavender or chamomile to me but concentrated pine tree in the cheapest way imaginable.
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post #6 of 32
1/30/12 at 4:15am
Whether or not you like the air freshener mentioned, what you describe is not an allergic reaction to any aroma chemical.
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post #7 of 32
1/30/12 at 4:17am
Mumsy, I'm sorry if I sounded critical of you, that was not my intention. Of course you should learn about the new materials that you are using, but it is probably better to use smelling strips rather than putting solutions onto your skin. Smelling a 10.0% solution is fine, for those materials which are very strong a 1.0% solution is better. It's up to you.
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post #8 of 32
1/30/12 at 4:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post

Whether or not you like the air freshener mentioned, what you describe is not an allergic reaction to any aroma chemical.

It may not be allergic by definition but chemical sensitivities are definitely allergy-like. I wasn't clear in the last post, but it's not simply that I dislike it - I perceive the scent much differently and at much lower thresholds (and thus, greater distances) than anybody else who I know that has smelled it.

It's just like with iso e super, which I can clearly and strongly smell for its full duration, and a number of other aromachemicals that I'm hyperosmic to and that jut out like jagged edges from a perfume's composition for whatever unknown reason.
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post #9 of 32
1/30/12 at 6:49am
Thread Starter 
Don't worry. I wouldn't mind criticism even if it was. How else can one learn if everyone stayed too timid?
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post #10 of 32
1/31/12 at 6:04am
I have a very sensitive skin which makes my ambition to be(come) a perfumer (when I grow up ) a challenge to say the least. My skin reacts with huge rashes and blisters to all common EU allergens (even before I knew what they were) and more. Some aromatic materials (natural & synthetics alike) give me a huge headache or a burning sensation in nose & throat.
It's for that reason that I can't longer buy from indie perfumers, especially those too far from home (transit through different temperatures oxidizes some juices) and the all-natural group. The last ones are most likely to prefer an artistic approach versus a conservative/dermatological one, thus unsafe for me.
Also I suffer from different plant allergies, like hay fever and other immunological problems, making wearing perfume, made in a home where cross-contamination is common, a huge pain.

My dream is to create perfume for people like me (I call it 'the disabled perfume lover syndrome')

ETA @sculptureofsoul: I have the same reaction to Iso E super! 'hyperosmic', what a lovely word!
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post #11 of 32
1/31/12 at 7:05am
  • kbe
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Water. Who in the world would expect anyone to have an 'allergy' to water?

IFRA take note!!


http://www.experienceproject.com/gro...Pruritus/89261
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post #12 of 32
1/31/12 at 7:13am
Thread Starter 
Poor devils. How on earth do they drink?
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post #13 of 32
1/31/12 at 8:00am
  • kbe
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Mumsy I guess that skin contact is the initiating cause. Horrible disease! I wonder if hypnotism with appropriate post-hypnotic suggestion would help? If it were me I would be trying everything from that to acupuncture to Hl-antihistamine (histamine blockers) and beyond.

Now, what about the H2O in fragrances? I wonder if that affects those suffering from Aquagenic Pruritus, or does it have to be unadultarated tap/bottle/natural H2O..
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post #14 of 32
1/31/12 at 4:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbe View Post

Water. Who in the world would expect anyone to have an 'allergy' to water?

IFRA take note!!


http://www.experienceproject.com/gro...Pruritus/89261

Shhh! They might be listening . . .
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post #15 of 32
2/1/12 at 1:15am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irina View Post


My dream is to create perfume for people like me (I call it 'the disabled perfume lover syndrome')

Coming from an aromatherapy angle. I would be most curious to know if the common healing oils had bad effects on skin such as you describe. The Tea tree, lavenders, frankincense, Roman and German Chamomile, yarrow, eucalyptus etc etc

One of my long term ambitions is to develop a range of scents that do a carefully considered job of work whilst smelling nice. I used to have a range of aromatherapy products that were just focussed as healing oils but the resulting smell was never a consideration at the time. I am learning perfumery to combine these two aspects eventually.
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post #16 of 32
2/1/12 at 1:33am
Mumsy all of the oils you mention contain one or more of the allergens on the list.
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post #17 of 32
2/1/12 at 1:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mumsy View Post

Coming from an aromatherapy angle. I would be most curious to know if the common healing oils had bad effects on skin such as you describe. The Tea tree, lavenders, frankincense, Roman and German Chamomile, yarrow, eucalyptus etc etc

One of my long term ambitions is to develop a range of scents that do a carefully considered job of work whilst smelling nice. I used to have a range of aromatherapy products that were just focussed as healing oils but the resulting smell was never a consideration at the time. I am learning perfumery to combine these two aspects eventually.

Allergic to all of the above although there are some frankincense species I can enjoy.
Aromatherapy would send me to my grave LOL

I believe though that there is a company that makes such products like you describe:
http://www.21drops.com/
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post #18 of 32
2/1/12 at 3:30am
Thread Starter 
Thank you. I will have a careful look at that web site with this allergen information in mind.

There is so much to learn about all these facets to do with allergens, perfumes, healing and ingredients. I shall be six foot under and kissing worms before I have learned enough.....
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post #19 of 32
2/1/12 at 4:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mumsy View Post

One of my long term ambitions is to develop a range of scents that do a carefully considered job of work whilst smelling nice. I used to have a range of aromatherapy products that were just focussed as healing oils but the resulting smell was never a consideration at the time. I am learning perfumery to combine these two aspects eventually.

I love the idea of functional perfume. It was what I had in mind when I created my Relaxed repose. . . though I don’t make any aromatherapy claims for it (since I never trained as an aromatherapist, that would be unwise).

I would have thought that a whole range with different functions, created by a qualified aromatherapist but all smelling good enough to wear as a perfume too would be a big seller. Good luck with the ambition!
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post #20 of 32
2/1/12 at 4:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irina View Post


My dream is to create perfume for people like me (I call it 'the disabled perfume lover syndrome')

A hypoallergenic perfume is something I’ve been working on, off and on, for about a year now. I have one designed, but I’m not sure it works that well as a scent, which is a bit of a flaw. Inevitably it is largely composed of synthetics and I think that is what I’m finding rather unsatisfactory about the way it smells: most of my test subjects have said they like it though so perhaps it’s just me. It isn’t on sale (or even on the planned releases list) yet for that reason.

Anyway if you’d like a sample to try out I’m happy to send one on condition you let me know how you get on with it!
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post #21 of 32
2/1/12 at 8:36am
@mumsy, the 21drops mixtures are full of allergens, no good for me.
But you're idea is lovely and has potential, 21drops is an example of that.

@Chris, thank you so much for the lovely offer. I'm afraid I have to politely decline as I'm having a rough time health wise and can't take any risks atm (also due to possible cross contamination as you do work with allergen containing materials in the same room, I presume)
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post #22 of 32
2/1/12 at 1:40pm
Thread Starter 
I have to say that sometimes I get thrilled and think I am getting somewhere, then I suddenly realise how very much I don't yet know and feel so pre-defeated. I know that this aromatherapy idea as a functioning perfume range and not as an aromatherapy range is extremely ambitious, but nothing ventured, nothing gained. I have got many healing types of blends already half made and am waiting to see what happens with the smell. I'm going to go over them with a toothcomb for all these perfume allergens. I can already see that due to many helpful comments on this thread alone, that some are bin-worthy for that.

I watched a television programme about one of the famous names and the perfume designer designed her blend and then the sample got created robotically and delivered to her desk. If the blend she specified had too many allergens in it, the robot just wouldn't make it. How cool is that? Never having to ever be wrong.....
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post #23 of 32
2/1/12 at 4:48pm
Today I joined the Perfumers Guild and discovered that a couple years ago they had a program, here on Basenotes, to simply create "Outlaw" perfumes. Last Fall they held a project called "Brave New Perfumes". Both use natural ingredients only, but ones which would be outlawed (or are untested) by IFRA. Their solution is to simply put warning labels on their perfumes, in the same way that chocolate bar makers put "may contain peanuts" on their labels. This seems to be a fine and simple solution to the issue posed by Mumsy at the start of this thread.
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post #24 of 32
2/2/12 at 12:44am
Thread Starter 
This article is what caught my attention. These independent perfumers are small icons to an amateur beginner perfumer like myself, and their attitudes to these rulings have some considerable influence on beginners whether the perfumers themselves mean them to be or not. By posting such blog subjects and the like, I assume they would agree with me there.

The IFRA rules are there, but I wonder if it is specifically unlawful or merely inadvisable not to follow them as an Indie perfumer in the UK. I say that in a very lighthearted and general way and in no way am I critical of what they are doing. Quite the opposite.
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post #25 of 32
2/2/12 at 1:49am
The famous list of allergens has nothing to do with IFRA. The list has been drawn up after consultation with dermatologists and is used by the EU. All fragrances containing any of these allergens whether from a synthetic or a natural source, above a certain concentration in the finished product must name those allergens. If a fragrance is sold in any EU country then that fragrance must be labelled. The concentration depends on the final concentration of the fragrance and its end use. Fragrance houses which are members of IFRA will follow IFRA rules; however it is not a legal obligation. The whole point of IFRA was to allow the perfumery industry to be self governing, and until recently this worked pretty well. Unfortunately european bureaucracy took over, resulting in the confusing situation we are in today.

By the way if you want to create a fragrance containing no allergens at all (as opposed to a fragrance with no labelled allergens) then you cannot use any essential oils. I have created several of these but they were for functional products only and would not be suitable as fine fragrances.
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post #26 of 32
2/2/12 at 4:00am
What @David says.

@Mumsy, there are all natural indie perfumers in the EU that just take the chance and do the 'outlaw' thing, follow none of the regulations and are very vocal about that on their websites, just browse through the natural perfumers guild members and you'll see.

I personally think that's a crappy attitude, but hey, I'm no diplomatic person

p.s. On the robot mixing, did you read Redneck's Perfumisto awesome IFF adventure?
http://www.theperfumemagazine.com/DE...Steinberg.html
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post #27 of 32
2/2/12 at 4:22am
Thread Starter 
Thanks guys. It is so valuable to have advice like this when one is blindly learning by oneself. It has saved me hours of work there and it certainly is a full stop for the natural perfume aromatherapy idea in a way. It's what makes this forum so superb. I know it may have been a naive kind of post, but the answers are so helpful. I will do some serious research before mixing another thing. I have another linked idea.....

That article is fantastic. How lovely to go somewhere like that one day.
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post #28 of 32
2/2/12 at 4:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post

The famous list of allergens has nothing to do with IFRA. The list has been drawn up after consultation with dermatologists and is used by the EU. All fragrances containing any of these allergens whether from a synthetic or a natural source, above a certain concentration in the finished product must name those allergens. If a fragrance is sold in any EU country then that fragrance must be labelled. The concentration depends on the final concentration of the fragrance and its end use. Fragrance houses which are members of IFRA will follow IFRA rules; however it is not a legal obligation. The whole point of IFRA was to allow the perfumery industry to be self governing, and until recently this worked pretty well. Unfortunately european bureaucracy took over, resulting in the confusing situation we are in today.

By the way if you want to create a fragrance containing no allergens at all (as opposed to a fragrance with no labelled allergens) then you cannot use any essential oils. I have created several of these but they were for functional products only and would not be suitable as fine fragrances.

^Just what I was about to say^

The one thing I’d add is that, even if you are not an IFRA member, it is still necessary to comply with the IFRA rules in practice, at least for functional fragrances, because otherwise you can’t get a Safety Assessment signed off and that is a legal requirement under the UK Cosmetics Regulations 2008 (and equivalent legislation in other EU states). In theory a safety assessment needn’t require IFRA compliance, but in practice they do.

Quote:
In theory there is no difference between theory and practice but in practice there is

(attributed to various people including Einstein, baseball coach Yogi Berra and computer scientist Jan L. A. van de Snepscheut)
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post #29 of 32
2/2/12 at 5:20am
Thread Starter 
From a beginner perfumers position, the IFRA rules are a matter to be questioned in order to be learned from, and to observe the resulting creativity of others within and outside of them. To be creating perfumes at this experimental hobby stage that do, or do not conform, is part of the learning curve in order to understand part of a whole entity. When it actually comes to being more than a hobby, and producing a 'real' perfume, then these questions will have been invaluable, and of course rules and legality would have to be followed. In a way they make for more creativity, rather than less, with the other challenge being sustainability when using naturals. I read somewhere that it takes seven years to become a 'nose' and another three before a perfumers best work begins. A while to go before there is any danger to the public from the likes of me.
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post #30 of 32
2/3/12 at 1:50am
If you are making perfumes for the love of it then use whatever you damn well want to. It is only if you wish to sell them, if you wish to become a commercial perfumer that the trouble starts. Then it gets complex. Then it becomes more about bureaucracy and far less about the love and joy of smelling stuff.

^Just what I was about to say^(Chris Bartlett) Why am I not surprised!!!
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post #31 of 32
2/3/12 at 1:26pm
Thread Starter 
One day, being a commercial perfumer will be within sight.... but until affording to do so allows, this site is invaluable. It is really, very appreciated when properly educated, experienced perfumers offer their expertise so freely for no personal gain.
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post #32 of 32
2/4/12 at 1:51am
The one thing that unites us all on this site is our love of Perfumery; we are passionate about it and so talking about it only increases our enjoyment of it.
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