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Musk xylene/musk ketone

post #1 of 20
3/25/12 at 1:09pm
Thread Starter 
I've made tinctures of these musks--they're not very soluble, the tinctures are about 1.5%--but they have practically no aroma. I was expecting a really strong musk scent but when I put a little on my skin, nothing. Am I doing something wrong?
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post #2 of 20
3/26/12 at 1:29am
Musk is a diffusive thing and some people are anosmic to it. It may not be weak to others. Proffer it and check the response before you turn up the volume. What exact musk were you tincturing?
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post #3 of 20
3/26/12 at 1:30am
Try a different solvent. There is no point in trying to make a "tincture' of a chemical like Musk Xylene or Ketone. Neither is especially soluble, but try either DPG or DEP. You will be lucky if you can get a 10.0% solution. Some people have difficulty in smelling musk odours. Personally I find Musk Ketone, and especially Musk Xylene, very strong indeed; particularly in a fab con, on cloth.
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post #4 of 20
3/26/12 at 1:34am
Good morning and what a lovely sunny day.... I should have waited one more minute shouldn't I?
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post #5 of 20
3/26/12 at 4:57am
I dont use musk xylene (it is banned in Europe) so cant comment on that one but musk ketone is certainly a pain to dissolve. 1.5% does seem too weak to me - I keep mine at 10% which is achieved using half benzyl benzoate and half ethanol (to 20% with BB first and then dilute to 10% with ethanol).

According to the Good Scents page on musk ketone these solvents will dissolve to this extent:

8.9% methyl carbitol
25.4% benzyl benzoate
16.5% diethyl phthalate (DEP)
18.6% dimethyl phthalate
1.8% alcohol (95%)

In practice I find it still needs ages on the automatic stirrer though - more than 24 hours anyway - in fact as I remember the last time I did it I lost patience waiting for all the crystals to dissolve in the benzyl benzoate and doubled the volume with ethanol to hasten it along, which worked. I didnt use any heat so I dont know whether that would have helped or not.

BTW - David - Ive never made a scent for a fabric conditioner, but your comment made me wonder if musk ketone would be amplified in the same way when use in an alcohol base perfume if it was sprayed onto clothing: most things last better on clothes than on skin, but that might result in a significantly altered fragrance if it worked exceptionally strongly with MK - do you know whether that is the case?
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post #6 of 20
3/26/12 at 5:03am
Oh, and I see in this earlier thread on the same subject Hedione (methyl dihydrojasmonate) is suggested as an alternative solvent - Ive not tried that myself but as hedione is often added to floral fragrances anyway and MK is a particularly good musk for florals it might be worth a go.
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post #7 of 20
3/27/12 at 5:42am
Chris, the effect of Musk Ketone (and Xylene) on cloth could be just as you suggested. Smelling materials in dilution on cloth can yield some strange results. I would have thought that a neat perfume put on cloth would act in a similar way to the perfume on a smelling strip but when a fragrance (or raw material) is put into a fab con which is then used to wash cloth, which is then dried over a few days, you get a concentration effect which can be the opposite of that predicted. Do you know the speciality material Karanal? I remember being shown that (by Quest) and a BSP one day symposium and being told that only 60.0% of their test group could smell it. During the presentation there were many, including myself, who could smell nothing whilst others were recoiling at the perceived strength of the material. Anyway, much later we were testing the longevity and retention of a series of raw materials in fab con. Out of the jar, on wet cloth, on 24 hour dried cloth, after five days. Karanal was one the materials we tested. Out of the jar I could smell nothing (0.5% of a 10.0% solution of Karanal in Fab Con). On wet cloth there was a faint odour. After 24 hours, I couldn't believe how strong it had become. I'm not sure how much Karanal was left on cloth after that time, but it couldn't have been much. Maybe, as it is so strong, my nose was flooded by anything higher thn the minute amount left on cloth.

But, I'm rambling. I found Musk Xylene to be one of the strongest and most retentive musks in fab con (and you are quite right it has now been banned in Europe), and Musk Ketone is only slightly less effective.
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post #8 of 20
3/27/12 at 7:45am
Thread Starter 
I may be anosmic since I can barely smell either one. It must be said, however, that they are only in concentrations of 1.5% since that seems to be the limit of what will dissolve in alcohol. I may try following Chris's advice by dissolving it in benzyl benzoate and see what that yields. If I can come up with a 10% solution, hopefully that will do the trick.
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post #9 of 20
3/27/12 at 9:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post

Chris, the effect of Musk Ketone (and Xylene) on cloth could be just as you suggested. Smelling materials in dilution on cloth can yield some strange results. I would have thought that a neat perfume put on cloth would act in a similar way to the perfume on a smelling strip but when a fragrance (or raw material) is put into a fab con which is then used to wash cloth, which is then dried over a few days, you get a concentration effect which can be the opposite of that predicted. Do you know the speciality material Karanal? I remember being shown that (by Quest) and a BSP one day symposium and being told that only 60.0% of their test group could smell it. During the presentation there were many, including myself, who could smell nothing whilst others were recoiling at the perceived strength of the material. Anyway, much later we were testing the longevity and retention of a series of raw materials in fab con. Out of the jar, on wet cloth, on 24 hour dried cloth, after five days. Karanal was one the materials we tested. Out of the jar I could smell nothing (0.5% of a 10.0% solution of Karanal in Fab Con). On wet cloth there was a faint odour. After 24 hours, I couldn't believe how strong it had become. I'm not sure how much Karanal was left on cloth after that time, but it couldn't have been much. Maybe, as it is so strong, my nose was flooded by anything higher thn the minute amount left on cloth.

But, I'm rambling. I found Musk Xylene to be one of the strongest and most retentive musks in fab con (and you are quite right it has now been banned in Europe), and Musk Ketone is only slightly less effective.

Thanks for the info David thats fascinating. I dont have any Karanal but I think I might have seen it demonstrated somewhere along the line too. Those symposia are excellent - they are a great way to discover new things - I must be sure to get booked onto the next one.
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post #10 of 20
4/5/12 at 2:46am
i am the manufacturer of musk ketone, you buy this from China? also we are doing tonalid.
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post #11 of 20
4/5/12 at 2:50am
i am the manufacturer of musk ketone and musk xylol in china ,you buying this from China?
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post #12 of 20
4/5/12 at 5:10pm
interesting thread!

to the original poster:

yes, you need to dissolve it in something else than alcohol first. i have my musk ketone at 20 or 25 percent in benzyl benzoate. once dissolved, you can put it in alcohol if you wish to dilute it down (for evaluation purpose it's better to smell it diluted in alcohol to 10%)

a little warning: be very careful not to get any of the crystals in your nose (imagine: it's on your hand, you touch your nose because of an itch, you inhale) because you won't be able to smell the stuff for a long time! that is called adaption, you will just be anosmic to it for some time. if that happened, don't worry too much about it, your sense of this smell will return some time after it's gone.

also note that musk ketone seems to grow a bit stronger over time after application, especially when it's in a blend. it's a big molecule and a bit slow at taking off.
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post #13 of 20
4/5/12 at 5:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by harmonyaroma View Post

i am the manufacturer of musk ketone and musk xylol in china ,you buying this from China?

hi there. are you making musk ambrette, too?
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post #14 of 20
4/5/12 at 6:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by gido View Post

hi there. are you making musk ambrette, too?

sure, we also make musk ambrette. you are buying this ?
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post #15 of 20
4/5/12 at 7:48pm
i might very well be interested, but i will need to test a sample first. could you send me a sample, please?
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post #16 of 20
4/6/12 at 7:51am
pls give me your post details for posting sample,by the way ,would you like to tell me your dosage every year.
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post #17 of 20
4/9/12 at 9:17am
you also interested in Tonalid?
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post #18 of 20
4/10/12 at 10:59am
sure. i did send you the address in a private message.
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post #19 of 20
4/10/12 at 8:05pm
You will be lucky if you can get a 10.0% solution. Some people have difficulty in smelling musk odours.
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post #20 of 20
5/6/12 at 11:45pm
Chris, can we use these musk(musk ketone,musk xylol,musk ambrette) in eau the perfume products that contain water,alcohol and fragrance?
which one is the best, if ignore the ban?

tks

tommy
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