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How to build a smooth citrus accord based on chemicals

post #1 of 16
3/31/12 at 2:13am
Thread Starter 
Ok one think that may not be so difficult, but i always have the problem to build a really natural and smooth citrus accord based on chemicals. I normally use citral, but for me it´s too harsh and artificial, the result is a dishwater - smell.
Maybe my citral is off, or i used the wrong chemical ? Has anyone a suggestion what combination of chems i have to use to alter or smooth the harsh smell ?
I don´t want to use eo´s.

Thanks

Conni
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post #2 of 16
3/31/12 at 3:11am
Conni,
It might help to know why you dont want to use the natural product - is there something in it you are trying to avoid? Is it a stability problem?

From a compliance perspective it is citral and citronellol that are the components that are restricted, but each constitutes less than 1% of natural sweet orange oil for example.

You are going to need a combination of things to get a good citrus from purely artificial sources but unlike most things it does not work out cheaper to use the substitutes if you end up effectively re-building the natural oil from its chemical constituents, hence my question.
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post #3 of 16
3/31/12 at 8:57am
Thread Starter 
Ok, i try to explain. I read in an article, don´t ask me where it was, a perfumer referred about citrus ingedients: in professionel perfumery they don´t use natural citrus, orange, bergamot and grapefruit ingredients, because after a short time it produces sulfur ions and that destroys your blend, it gets the characteristic onion smell. Heck, what would i do to find that article again. That makes me avoid all those natural heseperidic ingredients.

Thanks,

Conni
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post #4 of 16
3/31/12 at 9:16am
Thread Starter 
Chris, i did not know that citral is restricted, interesting. I have following citrus related chemicals :
-Citral
-Lime oxide
-Lemonile
-Methyl Pampelmouse
-Orange Power
-Orange Crystals
-Tangerinol
-Aldehyde C 10
-Linalylacetate
-Dimethyl octenone
-Ethyl Linalylacetate
-Aldehyde C 9
-Aldehyde C 8
-Citronellol
-Thiocineol ( grapefruit menthane )

is there anything left that would be helpful for a natural fruity citrus accord ? I have also a few naturals, for example litsea cubeba and lemon spain, i never used it, it all does not help along.

Conni
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post #5 of 16
3/31/12 at 12:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Conni HD View Post

Chris, i did not know that citral is restricted, interesting. I have following citrus related chemicals :
-Citral
-Lime oxide
-Lemonile
-Methyl Pampelmouse
-Orange Power
-Orange Crystals
-Tangerinol
-Aldehyde C 10
-Linalylacetate
-Dimethyl octenone
-Ethyl Linalylacetate
-Aldehyde C 9
-Aldehyde C 8
-Citronellol
-Thiocineol ( grapefruit menthane )

is there anything left that would be helpful for a natural fruity citrus accord ? I have also a few naturals, for example litsea cubeba and lemon spain, i never used it, it all does not help along.

Conni

Hi Conni,
Thanks for that, now I think I can help. First off I think the article was probably referring specifically to natural grapefruit oil, which certainly does degrade into sulphur compounds and is a problem. I normally use a synthetic substitute.

That being said, I also use all of the above plus dihydromyrcenol and terpeneol to formulate citrus notes, though I often use them in combination with natural oils (though I only use natural grapefruit in room fragrances that are going to be used up fairly quickly). I find using some olibanum, lemongrass or litsea cubeba can also be helpful in creating a lasting citrus effect. Also dont neglect the C12 aldehydes - lauric and MNA - both of which can be used in traces to advantage in a citrus accord. For a general smoothing effect, you could also try PEA.

Hope that helps
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post #6 of 16
3/31/12 at 12:24pm
Thread Starter 
Thank you Chris, you always be very helpful ! Need to play around a bit with the ingredients i keep.
By the way what is PEA ?

Thanks
Conni
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post #7 of 16
3/31/12 at 12:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Conni HD View Post

Thank you Chris, you always be very helpful ! Need to play around a bit with the ingredients i keep.
By the way what is PEA ?

Thanks
Conni

Youre welcome.

And sorry - acronyms are a very bad habit - its phenyl ethyl alcohol
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post #8 of 16
4/1/12 at 1:41am
Perfumers do use Bergamot, Orange and Grapefruit as Chris has explained. Sulphur ions do not come out of thin air, they have to be there in the first place, so you do not get them in Orange or Bergamot oils. The other material that I found invaluable for a "smooth" citrus accord was Hedione. You wouldn't think to smell it on its own (although many people do think it has a citrus smell) but it does work.
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post #9 of 16
4/1/12 at 3:07am
Thread Starter 
Thanks David,
for the next time i´ll give orange and tangerine oil a try and hedione is a good idea. Maybe i ´ve overdone it with the citral.

Conni
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post #10 of 16
4/1/12 at 8:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Conni HD View Post

Thanks David,
for the next time i´ll give orange and tangerine oil a try and hedione is a good idea. Maybe i ´ve overdone it with the citral.

Conni

Hedione is indeed a good idea and I should have thought to mention it - it works well as a fixative for many citrus notes too, even though it isnt normally thought of as a fixative or even as a base note (in most classifications its a middle note, though you can with equal validity classify it as a base note).
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post #11 of 16
4/2/12 at 12:50am
It is easy to overdo the Citral. Also if the citral you use is not natural it can smell somewhat cheap and nasty.
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post #12 of 16
4/3/12 at 4:09am
i would say, go for the naturals. they are great, citrus oils just smell fantastic. and they're inexpensive, too. just make sure they're fresh, that's all. then use the chemicals as modifiers (for example for the naturals) or building blocks when you only need that particular element (for example, when building a rose).

building a citrus accord from scratch is great for learning, but i don't think any of us humans will ever produce something that smells better than the real thing this way. or at least not in our lifetime. and smelling good is the first requirement of perfumery, after all.
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post #13 of 16
4/3/12 at 8:11am
Thread Starter 
Thank you gido for your input. I thought with citrus oils i´ll destroy my blend. But as you all use it, i´ll give it a try and need to expand my ingredients list a bit. But i´m still wondering what the professionals are using.

Thanks

Conni
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post #14 of 16
4/3/12 at 8:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Conni HD View Post

Thank you gido for your input. I thought with citrus oils i´ll destroy my blend. But as you all use it, i´ll give it a try and need to expand my ingredients list a bit. But i´m still wondering what the professionals are using.

Thanks

Conni

Hi Conni,
I can assure you that professionals use real citrus - though not always whole citrus. As an illustration at the BSP symposium last May we had a demonstration by Capua who specialise in citrus oils. Some of the stuff they demonstrated was spectacular, especially some of the Light Fraction oils. I well remember one of my fellow perfumers asking for pricing and being shocked that one of the loveliest oils was as little as $15 a kilo . . . then they clarified that that assumed you were buying by the the pallet of 25 kilo drums (cant remember how many drums fit on a pallet but you get the idea). The next question from my eager colleague was what is the maximum you can supply? The answer was tens to hundreds of tonnes.
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post #15 of 16
4/3/12 at 11:15am
Thread Starter 
Gosh, that´s huge indeed. Interesting link Chris, with the olfactory descriptions of various citrus oils they produce...and i never heard of red mandarins !

Conni
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post #16 of 16
4/4/12 at 10:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Conni HD View Post

Gosh, that´s huge indeed. Interesting link Chris, with the olfactory descriptions of various citrus oils they produce...and i never heard of red mandarins !

Conni

Oh its really worth exploring the varieties of mandarin - its a fascinating fruit from an aromatic point of view with three harvests: first there is a natural drop of tiny unripe, green fruit used to make Green Mandarin EO, then the fruit is thinned out part-way through the ripening process to produce Yellow Mandarin oil and finally the ripe fruit (when it isnt being sold for eating as whole fruit) also yields Red Mandarin.

You can get all three from Hermitage and I really recommend trying them - Im a huge fan of green mandarin especially, which can even be used as a cheaper alternative to neroli oil - though I think its well worth featuring for itself. I use all three in various compositions.

The red is the fruitiest, the green the greenest, most aldehydic and the yellow is a nice compromise between them. Perhaps not quite as versatile and useful as bergamot, but close.
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