I'm looking into the traditional Eau de Cologne, with possibly a modern take on it. I was eyeing Chanel's rendition of it. Anyone have any other recommendations? I also have heard a lot of recommendations on the Acqua di Parma series. Any insight? Thanks guys.
Basenotes › Basenotes Forums › Fragrance Discussion › Male Fragrance Discussion › Traditional Eau de Cologne
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Traditional Eau de Cologne
post #2 of 44
4/9/12 at 9:22am
post #3 of 44
4/9/12 at 9:29am
- cacio
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Yes to Chanel Eau de Cologne, my favorite. It's a slightly greener take on the classic recipe, even fresher and more interesting. In cheaper territory, I also like 4711, more classically neroli centered. As all eau de cologne true recipes, remember that they are intended as fresheners, but they don't last long.
The acqua di parma are good too, but they are heavier and more structured, with lots of clean musks and the like. As a result, they last longer than the original eau de cologne recipes, though they don't have the fresh zing of the standard ones.
So I think that the choice is whether you want something to last through (most of) the day, in which case you'll have to go with the AdP, or you intend a fresh spritz, in which case the Chanel would be my suggestion.
Not a classical eau de cologne recipe, but providing some of the same function of light freshness, is Eau Neuve by Lubin, which has a slightly curious medicinal feel ("tiger balm chypre" in Tania Sanchez's words), and is relatively long lasting.
cacio
The acqua di parma are good too, but they are heavier and more structured, with lots of clean musks and the like. As a result, they last longer than the original eau de cologne recipes, though they don't have the fresh zing of the standard ones.
So I think that the choice is whether you want something to last through (most of) the day, in which case you'll have to go with the AdP, or you intend a fresh spritz, in which case the Chanel would be my suggestion.
Not a classical eau de cologne recipe, but providing some of the same function of light freshness, is Eau Neuve by Lubin, which has a slightly curious medicinal feel ("tiger balm chypre" in Tania Sanchez's words), and is relatively long lasting.
cacio
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4/9/12 at 9:36am
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My favourites include Guerlain's Eau du Coq (1894) and the more recent Eau de Guerlain (1974).
Acqua di Parma Colonia ( and flankers) is notable for its better-than-average longevity ( do bear in mind that, traditional-style eaux de cologne are very fleeting).
Patou's Eau de Patou, whilst not a classical eau, is a very nice citrus and worth sniffing if you can.
Chanel's offering is nice, but nothing revolutionary.
Acqua di Parma Colonia ( and flankers) is notable for its better-than-average longevity ( do bear in mind that, traditional-style eaux de cologne are very fleeting).
Patou's Eau de Patou, whilst not a classical eau, is a very nice citrus and worth sniffing if you can.
Chanel's offering is nice, but nothing revolutionary.
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4/9/12 at 9:57am
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4/9/12 at 9:57am
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I'm a big fan of Eau de Guerlain, as it manages to have good longevity. Tom Ford's Neroli Portofino is a long lasting update of the classical "4711" style-cologne. The price is a bit steep.
I find the musk base of Chanel's EdC a bit too sweet, but it is a very nice rendition.
AdP Colonia is quite good in the longevity department, but it's a bit gentlemen barber shop-ish. I happen to love it.
Eau de Rochas and Eau de Rochas Homme are also really quite good; Homme was a dose of myrrh.
One I really love, and that gets very little attention here is Clairins Eau Dynamisante. Close to the original Eau Sauvage; citrus blast with aromatic herbs.
I find the musk base of Chanel's EdC a bit too sweet, but it is a very nice rendition.
AdP Colonia is quite good in the longevity department, but it's a bit gentlemen barber shop-ish. I happen to love it.
Eau de Rochas and Eau de Rochas Homme are also really quite good; Homme was a dose of myrrh.
One I really love, and that gets very little attention here is Clairins Eau Dynamisante. Close to the original Eau Sauvage; citrus blast with aromatic herbs.
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4/9/12 at 10:10am
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Quote:
Guerlain - La Cologne du Parfumeur (As you might know, Tradition cologne does not have a good sillage, therefore you might need to re apply it once in while, I would say every 4 hours.

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Thanks for all the great recommendations, I wasn't expecting monster longevity, but I was looking for something that just feels fresh. Looks like I'll have to look into Cologne du Parfumeur/Guerlain's, and continue to look into the Chanel. Acqua di Parma is looking like something I'm not interested in right now, so thanks for helping me weed that out and adding in some other great options!
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4/9/12 at 10:48am
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Acqua di Colonia from Lorenso Villoresi is also well worth trying.
+1 on Cologne du Parfumeur, the modern entry to the Guerlain EDC family, all of which are excellent. The original AdP Colonia is still a personal favourite after 15+ years of wearing it - I think early 90's is arguably still 'modern' in the context of the genre. I have tried the Chanel a number of times and just find it a bit 'too smooth'.
And if you come across Eau de Patou just grab it
+1 on Cologne du Parfumeur, the modern entry to the Guerlain EDC family, all of which are excellent. The original AdP Colonia is still a personal favourite after 15+ years of wearing it - I think early 90's is arguably still 'modern' in the context of the genre. I have tried the Chanel a number of times and just find it a bit 'too smooth'.
And if you come across Eau de Patou just grab it

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4/9/12 at 10:51am
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an eau de cologne with a modern take:
Cologne pour le Soir by Maison Francis Kurkdjian - Upon application, one is treated to a deliciously seductive, red rose with fruity glimmers and a cabernet-like facet. A sweet and warm benzoin dusts the lovely rose with its vanillic highlight, and in so doing, provokes a keen powderiness. Barely transitioning, a delightful honey intermingles with the enchanting blend and imparts its enticing sweetness, while what I assume are aldehydes apparently color the melange with a smoky wax. Amazingly, the finale brings forth a mysterious and spicy incense interplaying with wondrous labdanum, which tempers the creation with a tinge of pine and vague illusions of amber and leather. A decidedly beautiful fragrance that is at once soothing and evocative. This anomalous cologne has stunted projection and average longevity.
Cologne pour le Soir by Maison Francis Kurkdjian - Upon application, one is treated to a deliciously seductive, red rose with fruity glimmers and a cabernet-like facet. A sweet and warm benzoin dusts the lovely rose with its vanillic highlight, and in so doing, provokes a keen powderiness. Barely transitioning, a delightful honey intermingles with the enchanting blend and imparts its enticing sweetness, while what I assume are aldehydes apparently color the melange with a smoky wax. Amazingly, the finale brings forth a mysterious and spicy incense interplaying with wondrous labdanum, which tempers the creation with a tinge of pine and vague illusions of amber and leather. A decidedly beautiful fragrance that is at once soothing and evocative. This anomalous cologne has stunted projection and average longevity.
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4/9/12 at 10:58am
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4/9/12 at 12:30pm
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here was a ranked list of favorite classics/edc's from another thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by DULLAH 
If we're keeping this traditional EDC-style or truly classic citrus, no contemporary fruity citruses of citrusy aquatics....just citrus, citrus blossoms and leaves, and minor supporting notes, done in classic styles....
I would rank Truefitt's West Indian Limes, Fresh's Hesperides, and Kilian's Prelude to Love highly but feel them too contemporary for a thread started by someone with the taste of the OP. so here goes....
1. Creed Selection Verte
2. Maitre Parfumeur Et Gantier Pour Le Jeune Homme
3. Lorenzo Villoresi Acqua Di Colonia
4. Parfums de Nicolai Cologne Sologne
5. Hermes Eau D'Orange Verte
6. Hermes Concentre D'Orange Verte
7. Nicolai Balle De Match
8. Guerlain EDC Imperiale
9. Creed Neroli Sauvage
10. Nicolai Cedrat Eau De Cologne
11. Brioni Eau De Parfum
12. Guerlain Eau De Guerlain
13. Acqua Di Parma Colonia
14. Penhaligon's Eau De Cologne
15. Roger & Gallet JMF Extra Vieille
16. Creed Citrus Biggarade
17. Miller Harris Tangerine Vert
18. Annick Goutal Eau De Hadrien
19. Trumper Eau De Cologne
20. Creed Bois De Cedrat
21. Guerlain Cologne Du Parfumeur
22. Nicolai Cedrat Intense
23. Maitre Fraiche Badiane
24. Eau De Rochas Homme
25. Malle Cologne Bigarade
26. Dior Eau Sauvage
27. Trumper GFT
28. Acqua Di Parma Arancia Di Capri
29. Czech & Speake Citrus Paradisi
30. Guerlain Eau De Fleurs de Cedrat
31. Chanel Eau De Cologne
32. Trumper Extract of West Indian Limes
Of all the hundreds of citrus perfumes I've tried, those are the rough ranking of what I feel are the ones I can truly call "classic". Bolder are the ones which last a long time (relatively speaking) that I also never tire of wearing.

If we're keeping this traditional EDC-style or truly classic citrus, no contemporary fruity citruses of citrusy aquatics....just citrus, citrus blossoms and leaves, and minor supporting notes, done in classic styles....
I would rank Truefitt's West Indian Limes, Fresh's Hesperides, and Kilian's Prelude to Love highly but feel them too contemporary for a thread started by someone with the taste of the OP. so here goes....
1. Creed Selection Verte
2. Maitre Parfumeur Et Gantier Pour Le Jeune Homme
3. Lorenzo Villoresi Acqua Di Colonia
4. Parfums de Nicolai Cologne Sologne
5. Hermes Eau D'Orange Verte
6. Hermes Concentre D'Orange Verte
7. Nicolai Balle De Match
8. Guerlain EDC Imperiale
9. Creed Neroli Sauvage
10. Nicolai Cedrat Eau De Cologne
11. Brioni Eau De Parfum
12. Guerlain Eau De Guerlain
13. Acqua Di Parma Colonia
14. Penhaligon's Eau De Cologne
15. Roger & Gallet JMF Extra Vieille
16. Creed Citrus Biggarade
17. Miller Harris Tangerine Vert
18. Annick Goutal Eau De Hadrien
19. Trumper Eau De Cologne
20. Creed Bois De Cedrat
21. Guerlain Cologne Du Parfumeur
22. Nicolai Cedrat Intense
23. Maitre Fraiche Badiane
24. Eau De Rochas Homme
25. Malle Cologne Bigarade
26. Dior Eau Sauvage
27. Trumper GFT
28. Acqua Di Parma Arancia Di Capri
29. Czech & Speake Citrus Paradisi
30. Guerlain Eau De Fleurs de Cedrat
31. Chanel Eau De Cologne
32. Trumper Extract of West Indian Limes
Of all the hundreds of citrus perfumes I've tried, those are the rough ranking of what I feel are the ones I can truly call "classic". Bolder are the ones which last a long time (relatively speaking) that I also never tire of wearing.
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4/9/12 at 1:36pm
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I'm only left to second some previous suggestions....my preference goes to
Chanel Eau De Cologne
Guerlain Eau De Guerlain
Maitre Parfumeur Et Gantier Eau Pour Le Jeune Homme
if you want a real modern take on the classic EDC cologne I'd also suggest Comme Des Garcons Anbar (probably one of the best bang for the buck in this cathegory) and Torre Of Tuscany Colonia Esperidea. The latter, to the usual citrus/floral formula of the classic EDC, adds notes of pineapple, gardenia and ambergis in the base. Pretty nice, and with a good longevity.
Chanel Eau De Cologne
Guerlain Eau De Guerlain
Maitre Parfumeur Et Gantier Eau Pour Le Jeune Homme
if you want a real modern take on the classic EDC cologne I'd also suggest Comme Des Garcons Anbar (probably one of the best bang for the buck in this cathegory) and Torre Of Tuscany Colonia Esperidea. The latter, to the usual citrus/floral formula of the classic EDC, adds notes of pineapple, gardenia and ambergis in the base. Pretty nice, and with a good longevity.
post #15 of 44
4/9/12 at 1:51pm
Well, nothing could be more "traditional" than the still very nice Farina Gegenüber. For classic - and classy - citrus colognes I'd recommend either Hermès' Concentré d'Orange Verte or Chanel's Pour Monsieur. You can't really go wrong with either. For a more "modern take" on the traditional cologne style, you might like CdG's vetiver/citrusy Vettiveru or Byredo's Sunday Cologne (aka Fantastic Man).
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4/9/12 at 1:59pm
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post #17 of 44
4/12/12 at 12:22pm
Patricia de Nicolai's Cologne Sologne has well-deserved support in this category.
Another great one from this same house is the Cedrat eau de cologne. Predominant note of cedrat (a type of citrus, not cedar wood). Light enough to soak yourself in, but it lasts long enough to have several stages in its development. Wonderful warm, bone-dry base with black pepper, sandalwood and patchouli.
Another great one from this same house is the Cedrat eau de cologne. Predominant note of cedrat (a type of citrus, not cedar wood). Light enough to soak yourself in, but it lasts long enough to have several stages in its development. Wonderful warm, bone-dry base with black pepper, sandalwood and patchouli.
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4/12/12 at 8:26pm
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4/12/12 at 11:55pm
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I totally second Pour le Jeune Homme by Maitre Parfumeur et Gantier. Such a great neroli fragrance and it lasts almost the whole day!! This is my recent re-discovery that ends my search for an Eau de Cologne. Mind you, there is a newer Extravagant version of it as well with a prominent ginger note. I found it overboarding, but it could give it the modern touch you wanted.
From the classic Guerlain Eaux, my choice by far is Eau de Fleurs de Cedrat. I suspect it was reformulated (because of the verbena it was supposed to contain and I smell nothing like it in today's version) and is now all about lemon. Lovely, sparkling-lemony with juice and zests. Longevity is good (it's an EdT concentration) for this kind of fragrance with no base notes (2 hours).
I like the opening of Eau de Guerlain a lot, but I'd rather have my Eau with no base than being confronted with such a dull and uninteresting tonka base. The best part of Eau de Guerlain is over within half an hour.
From the classic Guerlain Eaux, my choice by far is Eau de Fleurs de Cedrat. I suspect it was reformulated (because of the verbena it was supposed to contain and I smell nothing like it in today's version) and is now all about lemon. Lovely, sparkling-lemony with juice and zests. Longevity is good (it's an EdT concentration) for this kind of fragrance with no base notes (2 hours).
I like the opening of Eau de Guerlain a lot, but I'd rather have my Eau with no base than being confronted with such a dull and uninteresting tonka base. The best part of Eau de Guerlain is over within half an hour.
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Just wanted to update with what I ended up with. My choice actually came from just a matter of finding a ridiculous deal on Neroli Portofino (cheaper than the Chanel) It was one I was wanting to try anyways, and if it doesn't hit the spot I figure I won't be taking a loss. A big plus on pulling the trigger was the longevity I've heard. Anyways, hopefully it turns out great, it was a blind buy 

post #32 of 44
1/17/13 at 1:51pm
Fascinating thread.
I am on the lookout for the "perfect" summer 2013 cologne myself - it's a little early, I know. I want something both simple and sophisticated, neither uniflore nor complicated, heavy basenotes, as close to natural perfume smelling as possible. (Yet, if I wanted pure essential oils I could do that myself.) I am ready to shell out about $100 bucks, if I am extremely happy with the product.
I like Cologne Sologne, more neroli than citrus peel, but it is weak indeed. (On the other hand, the price is right - $40 for the quality, pas mal.)
I liked Eau d'Hadrien, the original, a tad too grapefruity for me. Eau d'Orange Verte smells good on first contact, it has some seductive top notes, yet it goes a bit into detergent smell on me.
I had some Citrus Bigarrade... not bad at all when fresh, which is always a gamble with this house, but obscenely expensive. I believe it may be discontinued anyway. Selection Verte is good quality indeed, but too heavy on greenery - as opposed to "yellow" and "orange" colors - when it comes to what I am looking for. Bois de Cedrat used to be priced slightly more reasonably, but now it was let loose itself into the territory of sheer price absurdity. At that price range I would rather go for Eau du Chanel, which really seems faultless to me yet it doesn't seduce me.
Acqua di Parma smells great in its own way yet it is not what I am looking for (I prefer to keep my heavies and my colognes separately.)
I remember sniffing Eau de Guerlain and Imperiale by the same.... very good indeed, and I am tempted by a bottle of either... yet I would be happy to find something *slightly* better. One thing which *sounds* great yet I've never sniffed is this Cologne du Parfumeur. How does it fit within the context I've described? I don't live in a big city. Thanks.
I am on the lookout for the "perfect" summer 2013 cologne myself - it's a little early, I know. I want something both simple and sophisticated, neither uniflore nor complicated, heavy basenotes, as close to natural perfume smelling as possible. (Yet, if I wanted pure essential oils I could do that myself.) I am ready to shell out about $100 bucks, if I am extremely happy with the product.
I like Cologne Sologne, more neroli than citrus peel, but it is weak indeed. (On the other hand, the price is right - $40 for the quality, pas mal.)
I liked Eau d'Hadrien, the original, a tad too grapefruity for me. Eau d'Orange Verte smells good on first contact, it has some seductive top notes, yet it goes a bit into detergent smell on me.
I had some Citrus Bigarrade... not bad at all when fresh, which is always a gamble with this house, but obscenely expensive. I believe it may be discontinued anyway. Selection Verte is good quality indeed, but too heavy on greenery - as opposed to "yellow" and "orange" colors - when it comes to what I am looking for. Bois de Cedrat used to be priced slightly more reasonably, but now it was let loose itself into the territory of sheer price absurdity. At that price range I would rather go for Eau du Chanel, which really seems faultless to me yet it doesn't seduce me.
Acqua di Parma smells great in its own way yet it is not what I am looking for (I prefer to keep my heavies and my colognes separately.)
I remember sniffing Eau de Guerlain and Imperiale by the same.... very good indeed, and I am tempted by a bottle of either... yet I would be happy to find something *slightly* better. One thing which *sounds* great yet I've never sniffed is this Cologne du Parfumeur. How does it fit within the context I've described? I don't live in a big city. Thanks.
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1/17/13 at 4:59pm
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I may have gotten carried away in my response to your quest for a summer cologne but . . . You are looking for a good summer eau de cologne and I recently had a similar quest myself, I thought I would list 12 fragrances that are all excellent for this kind of summer cologne you might be looking for.
TWELVE WORTHY EAU DE COLOGNE'S
(1) Guerlain Cologne du Parfumeur is very clean with a dose of white musk + patchouli in the base. This one reminds me of cut crystal for its purity and transparent clean attitude. It is more transparent than the Chanel. Chanel is an excellent choice too by the way. Also very clean but softer with a slight lemony powder aspect is Guerlain (2) Eau de Imperiale. Neither of these Guerlains last extremely long, but both are clean and very fresh - two of the best ever made. To overcome the shorter lasting power, I opt for a big bottle and splash freely.
You said you like Cologne Sologne and there are several that have great neroli notes (like Col. Sologne does) along with traditional edc citrus freshnness. These are: (3) Villoresi Aqua di Colonia, (4) Maitre Parfumeur Gantier's Eau Pour le Jeune Homme and (5) Heely Oranges and Lemons Say the Bells of St. Clemens. It is amazing to me that these three all smell very close to each other and the scent is very traditional and very much emphasizing the citrus. They are warmer with neroli than most colognes. These all have that orange and yellow aspect you mentioned.
I also recommend three of The Different Company new eau de colognes: (6) Tokyo Bloom (soft green gardens), (7) Limon de Cordoza (lemon and woods), and (8) Sienna d' Orange (orange, apricot and leather). I was surprised at how much I kept going back to these last summer after discovering them.
From JC Ellena and Hermes are a couple of really nice edc style colognes: (9) Jardin Sur le Nil and (10) Jardin Sur le Toit. Sur le Nil is green mangoes and Sur le Toit is close clipped green grass. Both have a very dry finish, typical of Ellena creations. For a more oceanic Ellena eau de cologne try (11) Voyage de Hermes.
My favorite orange cologne is (12) Azemour les Orangers by Parfum d' Empire. This fragrance is hypnotic in its fresh dry orange scent.
There are twelve to try - they are all good for summer. My absolute favorite of all these ( I've got them all) is the last one - Azemour les Orangers.
TWELVE WORTHY EAU DE COLOGNE'S
(1) Guerlain Cologne du Parfumeur is very clean with a dose of white musk + patchouli in the base. This one reminds me of cut crystal for its purity and transparent clean attitude. It is more transparent than the Chanel. Chanel is an excellent choice too by the way. Also very clean but softer with a slight lemony powder aspect is Guerlain (2) Eau de Imperiale. Neither of these Guerlains last extremely long, but both are clean and very fresh - two of the best ever made. To overcome the shorter lasting power, I opt for a big bottle and splash freely.
You said you like Cologne Sologne and there are several that have great neroli notes (like Col. Sologne does) along with traditional edc citrus freshnness. These are: (3) Villoresi Aqua di Colonia, (4) Maitre Parfumeur Gantier's Eau Pour le Jeune Homme and (5) Heely Oranges and Lemons Say the Bells of St. Clemens. It is amazing to me that these three all smell very close to each other and the scent is very traditional and very much emphasizing the citrus. They are warmer with neroli than most colognes. These all have that orange and yellow aspect you mentioned.
I also recommend three of The Different Company new eau de colognes: (6) Tokyo Bloom (soft green gardens), (7) Limon de Cordoza (lemon and woods), and (8) Sienna d' Orange (orange, apricot and leather). I was surprised at how much I kept going back to these last summer after discovering them.
From JC Ellena and Hermes are a couple of really nice edc style colognes: (9) Jardin Sur le Nil and (10) Jardin Sur le Toit. Sur le Nil is green mangoes and Sur le Toit is close clipped green grass. Both have a very dry finish, typical of Ellena creations. For a more oceanic Ellena eau de cologne try (11) Voyage de Hermes.
My favorite orange cologne is (12) Azemour les Orangers by Parfum d' Empire. This fragrance is hypnotic in its fresh dry orange scent.
There are twelve to try - they are all good for summer. My absolute favorite of all these ( I've got them all) is the last one - Azemour les Orangers.
post #34 of 44
1/17/13 at 5:30pm
post #35 of 44
1/17/13 at 8:42pm
Thank you Sir [Buzzlepuff] for your interesting comments. I still want to go (quasi-)traditional, cologne-wise, and minimalistically chemical, but with the best there is [if it doesn't cost $400! 100 would be acceptable). Would the Cologne du Parfumeur perhaps fit the bill?
I could always get an all-cologne "sample batch" from The Perfumed Court.. well, that would be as expensive as a Cologne Sologne bottle LOL
PS I will keep in mind your recommendations for more exotic, more daring colognes. You obviously know the subject in and out, as does Dullah. Any opinion on Atelier Cologne? Besides higher concentration, how does quality strike you, please?
I could always get an all-cologne "sample batch" from The Perfumed Court.. well, that would be as expensive as a Cologne Sologne bottle LOL
PS I will keep in mind your recommendations for more exotic, more daring colognes. You obviously know the subject in and out, as does Dullah. Any opinion on Atelier Cologne? Besides higher concentration, how does quality strike you, please?
post #36 of 44
1/17/13 at 9:32pm
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Cologne du Parfumeur is a nice scent overall. Very refined, well balanced, smooth, with a modern appeal. Though, it doesn't stand out to me, it lacks that sparkling top- a refreshing quality that I want in an EdC. I prefer Eau de Guerlain, it smells invigorating to my nose.
Overall though, Santa Maria Novella Eau de Cologne edges even Eau de Guerlain out. It is very bright with a wonderful blend of citrus and light florals. I am debating a bottle purchase between this and Eau d'Hadrien, which is a weaker composition, but it has that breathtaking lemon zest top that I can't get out of my head.
Overall though, Santa Maria Novella Eau de Cologne edges even Eau de Guerlain out. It is very bright with a wonderful blend of citrus and light florals. I am debating a bottle purchase between this and Eau d'Hadrien, which is a weaker composition, but it has that breathtaking lemon zest top that I can't get out of my head.
post #37 of 44
1/17/13 at 10:18pm
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1/17/13 at 11:44pm
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1/18/13 at 12:47am
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post #40 of 44
1/18/13 at 7:48am
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Cologne du Parfumeur is a very nice fragrance. It is very minimal though and definitely is a background scent of clean freshness. If you want something that stands out with more citrus like a traditional eau de cologne or like Chanel EDC Exclusifs does then I recommend one of those that Dullah has highlighted, - the ad colonia by Villoresi and by Pour le Jeune by MPG. I tried an eau de cologne by Santa Maria Novella once, which I thought was a limited edition for their anniversary or some occasion. It was very impressive, but I haven't seen it since. When it comes to old fashioned cologne style though it is my opinion that Guerlain does it better than almost anyone. If you live in the US and Private Message me your address through the Basenotes message system, I am happy to send some samples of these to test for yourself.
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1/18/13 at 8:13am
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post #43 of 44
1/18/13 at 9:34am
post #44 of 44
1/18/13 at 12:14pm
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Oh thanks, I was trying to get an image of Odie Cologne to show up and it wouldn't work.
OK, so the joke was Odie Cologne (pronounced "colOHney") was the patron saint of this topic.
Anyone remember him?
Not what I was looking for, but.....
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