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Kouros and Civet?

post #1 of 32
7/8/12 at 1:17pm
Thread Starter 
There is a lot of talk with this fragrance and civet. I gotta tell ya, I don't see it. I have been working with modern and vintage formulations. I get more of an medicinal/antiseptic dirty smell in the mix which has me thinking castoreum. Castoreum could also explain the "leathery" vibe as well. This one is proving to be a very challenging but yet fun fragrance to figure out. There is def something animalic and dirty with this fragrance but I'm not quite sure it's castoreum either. It could be there slightly or it could just be the way the notes play off with each other. Sometimes I wish I knew the whole damn recipe. Would help with painting the picture a lot better.

I'm looking for some real insightful feedback and discussion on this fragrance. :-)
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post #2 of 32
7/8/12 at 1:20pm
I know what you mean milkers, I don't get much (if any) civet here either. As you have pretty much stated, this animalic/dirty quality could be an impression rather than a specific note or set of notes.
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post #3 of 32
7/8/12 at 1:24pm
Mandy Aftel said in her book Essence and Alchemy - that she often adds a little civet to a composition becuase it amplifies florals and rounds out a scent - rather than adding the scent of civet to the fragrance. This is probably the case with Kouros where civet is often listed but other ingredients create the dirty edge that has everyone talking about it constantly.
I've never actually tried Kouros so I can't put in more than that
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post #4 of 32
7/8/12 at 1:30pm
Thread Starter 
I have civet from the perfumers apprentice which is very very fecal smelling and I have civet I received from friend that is from 1990. I have to tell you that the civet I have from 1990 is remarkably different, sweet and gorgeous. It still has a whisper of that fecal quality but I would not describe it as fecal. Definitely something you have to smell to get a real grasp on it.
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post #5 of 32
7/8/12 at 1:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mickers View Post

I have civet from the perfumers apprentice which is very very fecal smelling and I have civet I received from friend that is from 1990. I have to tell you that the civet I have from 1990 is remarkably different, sweet and gorgeous. It still has a whisper of that fecal quality but I would not describe it as fecal. Definitely something you have to smell to get a real grasp on it.

That's fascinating I have a little bit of the synthetic juice but have never tried the real stuff (apart from in compositions where I completely see what you mean - nothing fecal in sight).
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post #6 of 32
7/8/12 at 2:11pm
I have some synthetic civet from TPA too and find it smells like the morning breath of a brown bear just after hibernation. The synthetic castoreum on the other hand smells more like said bears afternoon poop. I fear if I ever accidentaly break one of those bottles, I'll have to flee town.
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post #7 of 32
7/8/12 at 2:25pm
I believe civet is the note that many people mistake for urine.

As for kouros in general: some will love its uniqueness while others will hate it. To me it was an interesting scent but not something id really want to smell like.
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post #8 of 32
7/8/12 at 2:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by noirdrakkar View Post

As for Kouros in general: some will love its uniqueness while others will hate it.

I fall on the side of those who love its uniqueness.
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post #9 of 32
7/8/12 at 2:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mickers View Post

There is a lot of talk with this fragrance and civet. I gotta tell ya, I don't see it. I have been working with modern and vintage formulations. I get more of an medicinal/antiseptic dirty smell in the mix which has me thinking castoreum.

I completely agree on the mdeicinal/antiseptic dirty smell but I don't think it's castoreum (which in this case I don't get). I think it's something related to a cocktail of synthetic muscs....
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post #10 of 32
7/8/12 at 2:59pm
Fragrances can be like people; some take time to get to know and appreciate; some you like or you don't, in a split second. Kouros and me were buddies from first sight (I don't mind that he forgot to change his diaper just before we met) Seriously though, the initial blast of Kouros does bring to mind a neglected men's room. I don't know the technical details of what produces this top note, but to my mind there is no doubt that it is animalic in nature.
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post #11 of 32
7/8/12 at 3:07pm
I don't believe there is any civet in Kouros either.

In fact, I stayed out of that recent "civetiest" thread because people started claiming there was civet in all sorts of perfumes that I am sure do not contain any.
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post #12 of 32
7/8/12 at 3:24pm
Kouros is a fragrance I believe I'm being too stupid to "understand". I have smelled and used it - with pleasure - for years, but if anyone ever asked what notes it contained...I couldn't tell. And because I can't discern anything in the mix I always label it as an "abstract" scent. :-)
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post #13 of 32
7/8/12 at 3:51pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by alfarom View Post

I completely agree on the mdeicinal/antiseptic dirty smell but I don't think it's castoreum (which in this case I don't get). I think it's something related to a cocktail of synthetic muscs....

Very interesting thought! Thanks for your input

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roper-Hall View Post

Fragrances can be like people; some take time to get to know and appreciate; some you like or you don't, in a split second. Kouros and me were buddies from first sight (I don't mind that he forgot to change his diaper just before we met) Seriously though, the initial blast of Kouros does bring to mind a neglected men's room. I don't know the technical details of what produces this top note, but to my mind there is no doubt that it is animalic in nature.

Forgot to change his diaper, Lmao, love it! I can see the whole dirty men's room thing but in a good way, if that makes sense, haha

Quote:
Originally Posted by Candide View Post

Kouros is a fragrance I believe I'm being too stupid to "understand". I have smelled and used it - with pleasure - for years, but if anyone ever asked what notes it contained...I couldn't tell. And because I can't discern anything in the mix I always label it as an "abstract" scent. :-)

love the honesty and like the label of abstract. I would just use that but I just like to try and figure things out the best I can. I give it my best shot until I come up with something that pleases me. It may not be right but at least I can find some sort of peace with my exploration of the scent.
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post #14 of 32
7/8/12 at 4:29pm
Kouros is a dangerous one to overthink because of the negative connotations and the brash opening with the ridiculous clash of topnotes.

I think it smells divine in the drydown, but application is key with this one.

I need to be in the mood to wear this.

The fragrance itself seems to have a mood too.
I can have days that it projects beautifully and I love the whafts of honey and burning incense with a touch of musk.
On other days, with the some dosage, it is simply too much with over the top projection and a ton of dirty muscs and civet.
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post #15 of 32
7/8/12 at 4:53pm
Mickers, thanks for asking this. I have tried to find out what musks are used in Kouros, and I'm still coming up snake-eyes. But if dcampen on the end of this thread was right, most of the fecal aspect of civet (pretty much necessarily fake nowaways) would be coming from skatole - the butt-smelly indole. But (no pun intended), I'm not really getting that, either. So it's still a mystery to me.

Anyway, you may be anosmic to the musks in Kouros, like me. I wouldn't really guess there was any musk / civet / approximation / reconstitution / whatever in Kouros, either. But I just figure I'm anosmic to it, because there are so many people (like my wife) who smell *something* nasty in Big K.

Hey, I just wear it when the wife is away.
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post #16 of 32
7/8/12 at 5:05pm
Thread Starter 
Check this out! I just had someone tell me that it's costus root oil used in Kouros that makes this dirty smell. Now I have not got my nose on it yet and it seems to be rather expensive but check out this description of costus - sure sounds like kouros to me!

Costus Root Oil is one of rare essential oil , It extract using steam distilled from the comminuted, dried roots of Saussurea lappa. It is a herbaceous perennial plant with yellow composite flowers growing in the Himalayan highlands. It is also extracts by using vacuum distillation of the resinoid extract obtained by extraction of the roots with solvents.It is a viscous, light yellow to brown liquid. According to Arctander, "it has a peculiar soft, but extremely tenacious odour, reminiscent of old precious wood, orris root, fatty (but not rancid) acids, vetiver, etc., with a distinctly animal or sebaceous undertone. The odour has been compared to that of human hair, fur coats or 'wet dogs'." Costus root oil has been used for intriguing notes in Oriental type perfumes. Major components of the oil are sesquiterpenoid lactones, e.g. dehydrocostuslactone. Other components contributing to its characteristic odour are costol, bergamotenal and alpha-ionone.
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post #17 of 32
7/8/12 at 5:12pm
I bet thats the flower Bigfoot brings home to Mama!
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post #18 of 32
7/8/12 at 5:14pm
While I really do appreciate Pierre Bourdon's work, and I'm sure Kouros fans would consider this a masterpiece. But honestly.. I have no desire to smell like a dumspter full of used urinal cakes.
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post #19 of 32
7/8/12 at 5:27pm
I think it's a combination of civet, castoreum, honey, spices, musk, etc., none used in huge amounts.
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post #20 of 32
7/8/12 at 7:07pm
Very well written. There is no right or wrong. It is all so subjective when commenting on fragrances. Sometimes, I think, we forget that.
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post #21 of 32
7/8/12 at 7:29pm
I don't get any castoreum in Kouros. Reference Yatagan and Kinski for the furry castoreum vibe.

I do get a touch of civet in Kouros in the opening (which is the easiest time to detect civet in general -- it's usually a warm musky thing after that). I get a little costus root too. (Costus root to me is the exact smell of a leather store full of newly oiled brand new fresh leather.) But the ingredient in Kouros that really creates the urinous effect is the honey. To me, Kouros has a heftier dose of honey than any other scent I've tried. The civet, incense, costus, musk, lavender, clary sage, jasmine, and amber all emphasize the various facets of the huge honey accord, further strengthening it.

Honey is a terrific animalic. Raw honey can give you the vibe of an extract, but extracts skip almost all the sweetness. Honey accords are a reflection of thousands of hot little animals in a tiny space, moving around ceaselessly for months collecting pollen, eating it, and regurgitating it with crazy insect chemical-signal laden preservatives. Honey extract smells like hot, hairy tiny animals.

If not for all those sweet florals and vanilla, I might wear this one. But for me, the first 90 minutes are cloyingly sickening.
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post #22 of 32
7/9/12 at 12:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonkeyBars View Post

) But the ingredient in Kouros that really creates the urinous effect is the honey. To me, Kouros has a heftier dose of honey than any other scent I've tried. The civet, incense, costus, musk, lavender, clary sage, jasmine, and amber all emphasize the various facets of the huge honey accord, further strengthening it.

Very plausible. Thanks MonkeyBars.
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post #23 of 32
7/9/12 at 1:45am
Vanilla!!! What you talking MB?
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post #24 of 32
7/9/12 at 9:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonkeyBars View Post

I don't get any castoreum in Kouros. Reference Yatagan and Kinski for the furry castoreum vibe.

I do get a touch of civet in Kouros in the opening (which is the easiest time to detect civet in general -- it's usually a warm musky thing after that). I get a little costus root too. (Costus root to me is the exact smell of a leather store full of newly oiled brand new fresh leather.) But the ingredient in Kouros that really creates the urinous effect is the honey. To me, Kouros has a heftier dose of honey than any other scent I've tried. The civet, incense, costus, musk, lavender, clary sage, jasmine, and amber all emphasize the various facets of the huge honey accord, further strengthening it.

Honey is a terrific animalic. Raw honey can give you the vibe of an extract, but extracts skip almost all the sweetness. Honey accords are a reflection of thousands of hot little animals in a tiny space, moving around ceaselessly for months collecting pollen, eating it, and regurgitating it with crazy insect chemical-signal laden preservatives. Honey extract smells like hot, hairy tiny animals.

If not for all those sweet florals and vanilla, I might wear this one. But for me, the first 90 minutes are cloyingly sickening.

For the most intense honey note, try Moustache by Rochas. The main accord is based around beeswax absolute and it has the most ridiculously urinous effect I've witnessed in perfumery. It opens with a lemon/civet accord that lingers for a while and has a typical roudnitska chypre drydown. It's from another time and is more distinctive than eau fraiche and eau sauvage, though it is vastly less wearable.
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post #25 of 32
7/9/12 at 9:50am
Not sure if beeswax equals honey though.
Beeswax: Moss Breches, Antaeus (vintage)
Honey: Giogio Beverly Hills, Kouros, Micallef Aoud (Homme)
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post #26 of 32
7/9/12 at 10:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nasenmann View Post

Not sure if beeswax equals honey though.
Beeswax: Moss Breches, Antaeus (vintage)
Honey: Giogio Beverly Hills, Kouros, Micallef Aoud (Homme)

You're right - they're different. Honey Absolute is waaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyy cheaper and what both are based on. "Honey" often refers to synthetic accords made to resemble honey's sweetness these days, but all the ones you mention have a very clear and prominent honey note. None so much as Moustache, though. It's ridiculous.
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post #27 of 32
7/9/12 at 11:05am
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Originally Posted by heperd View Post

Vanilla!!! What you talking MB?

I agree there's not much, but it's there rounding things out.
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post #28 of 32
7/9/12 at 1:05pm
it most likely does not contain real civet, but several civet synthetics and/or a civet base. and i do get an obvious civet-type tone from it.
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post #29 of 32
7/9/12 at 1:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nasenmann View Post

Not sure if beeswax equals honey though.
Beeswax: Moss Breches, Antaeus (vintage)
Honey: Giogio Beverly Hills, Kouros, Micallef Aoud (Homme)

+Lapidus PH
Boss No. 1
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post #30 of 32
7/9/12 at 7:27pm
I'm with MonkeyBars, beautiful mulled, spiced honey to me. What's civet got to do with it? Don't really care, I love the fragrance!
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post #31 of 32
7/9/12 at 9:27pm
I really think there is civet in Muscs Koublai Khan.... that's what civet smells like... dirty morning breath...
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post #32 of 32
7/10/12 at 3:13am
There's a slight urinous note in the drydown besides the ambergris. That's the civet! Love it!
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