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Lutens Labels : The "SL" logo vs. the Shiseido icon. What do they tell us ?

post #1 of 26
7/16/12 at 11:22am
Thread Starter 
Just was wondering about Lutens labels.

Am I correct in thinking that Lutens is no longer connected with Shiseido, and that all of his current bottles now come with the "SL" logo on the front, in place of the old....icon of the Shiseido palace ?

If so, would it be proper to think that Shiseido-iconed bottles might contain older formulations than the same stuff, but produced with the SL logo on it instead ? Or does even some of the recent juice still retain the old Shiseido icon on the label ?

I know that Serge has freely admitted that there's ongoing IFRA-compliant reformulations happening with his line, and that some folks here ( as well as Turin in his book) have said that some of the changes have been significant.

Not to get all Creed-like, but as far as I've been able to discern, there's been no information on how to decode his batch-date numbers...
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post #2 of 26
7/16/12 at 8:51pm
I've noticed some changes to some fragrances, especially recently, but I don't know if they correlate to the label change.

I did go out of my way to get Arabie in a bottle with the old label only because I believed it more likely to contain the formulation I remembered testing a year or two ago. I can't be sure when the "recent" changes occurred though.

I've got no idea how to decode the bottle numbers but I have noticed (on the rectangle export bottles):
- the older bottles (Shiseido-iconed) have sticker labels underneath with number
- those released as Haute Concentrations do state this on the small label under the bottle, so those that have become Eau de Parfums would appear to have changed concentration
- the first of the current bottles have an etched label/text underneath rather than a sticker with the number on the short side
- the current bottles also have an etched label/text underneath but the number is on the long side under the text
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post #3 of 26
7/17/12 at 12:23am
Far as I know Lutens is still owned by Shiseido. I cannot see them selling off their biggest perfume Niche brand. Its just the box colours and the introduction of the black label and cream range. The boxes changed to just a square in the middle being black or cream. The address on the back of the boxes is still the Palais Royal which is the Shiseido boutique in Paris.

Chergui seems to be the one people wonder about. The juice has changed colour it seems over a number of years. Started brown then was green and now brown again. The green juice was a few years back and some people say it is not the same and avoid that one. Mine is brown and before the green version. All the colours came under Shiseido.

The biggest difference in any of the fragrances is Feminite Du Bois, I own the original Shiseido version in parfum style and body cream. The Lutens version is ultra sweet compared to the original which had a slightly stark vibe from the cedar even with the honey.

I really think all perfume houses revamped their fragrances, but Serge is more honest and up front about admitting it to the public. Also there can be a variation in the natural ingredients depending on the harvest used in that batch. Just look at the Creed threads, its all bar codes and which was is the best as some are not as good as others.
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post #4 of 26
7/17/12 at 2:22am
Production code : first letter is the year of production.

2011 : Txxx
2010 : Sxxx
2009 : Rxxx
2008 : Qxxx

and so on.

It is correct for all brands related to Shiseido : Shiseido, Jean-Paul Gaultier, Issey Miyake, Serge Lutens, Narciso Rodriguez, Elie Saab
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post #5 of 26
7/17/12 at 4:28am
As far as I know, all the Shiseido boutiques in my country stop selling SL fragrances. However, the boutiques are still on the store locator in the SL website
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post #6 of 26
7/17/12 at 5:18am
Oh, I have a few S,R and Q's.
Ambre Sultan is D
Douce Amere is F

These two must be last century!!!

My Chergui is Q

I have an M as well on one.
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post #7 of 26
7/17/12 at 8:30am
Thread Starter 
I just have a couple. Fumerie Tourque with the Shiseido logo and a sticker on the bottom, and Filles en Aiguilles with the SL logo and an etched bottom.

Both use this set-up for their codes : LLL NN X ( L=letter, N=number, X= the letter 'X' )

My FT (older Shiseido label and plastic sticker) is an "N" = 2005 (NSW 15 X)

The Filles en Aiguilles (newer SL logo and etched ) is an "T" = 2011 (TLY 18 X)

The etched numbers on my bottle sit in a curve in the glass, are very lightly etched, and are particularly difficult to read, even with a good magnifying glass.

I suppose I should know this, but what's the significance of the white labels and the black ones ?
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post #8 of 26
7/19/12 at 4:59am
Thanks for the info AirBureau.

@Birdboy48, the black labels used to represent a limited time as an export and a higher concentration. I don't know if that's the case any more because there's black labels that have been around for some time and they no longer state Haute Concentration anywhere.
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post #9 of 26
7/19/12 at 5:19am
The cream label are always cheaper £65/66, the black label £83. The latter suppose to be Haute Concentration.
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post #10 of 26
7/20/12 at 2:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by donna255 View Post

The latter suppose to be Haute Concentration.

Are they still? I don't see it stated anywhere in connection to the newer bottle styles.
LuckyScent for example only state Haute Con against the older bottles that explicitly state they're Haute Con (or originally identified themselves as this).
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post #11 of 26
7/20/12 at 6:30am
No they no longer put that on the label but the black are still more expensive. The latest release SM is black label.
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post #12 of 26
7/20/12 at 7:42am
If anyone really wants the true vintage Serge Lutens, you don’t need batch numbers to determine this…

Disregarding the original purple and white packaging, there was a period during the early 2000s when Serge Lutens used a Paris-based Shiseido division, called Symbole Luxe International. Not only should the name of this distributor be printed somewhere on the boxes but it’s also printed on the label at the base of the bottles – both of my vintage bottles of Arabie bear ‘Symbole Luxe International’ instead of ‘Palais Royal’ (as well as my Fond de Parfum bottle).

I came across this completely by accident, and then specifically asked sellers about what the label stated when searching for an Arabie back-up.

Here’s a bit more information (dated February 2000):

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-60130429.html
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post #13 of 26
7/20/12 at 8:45am
yes both my Ambre Sultan and Douce Amere are the Luxe
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post #14 of 26
7/20/12 at 7:58pm
Thanks for the info Trebor. I've never seen releases under Symbole Luxe International; can anyone post a pic or two of these?
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post #15 of 26
7/20/12 at 11:15pm
They look exactly the same as the current bottles and boxes, a little deeper taupe/cream and its just written on the back at the bottom of the box. They should have the arched window design on the front of the box at the bottom, but even that is no guarantee as they still used it until a few years ago anyway.
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post #16 of 26
7/22/12 at 9:33am
I tried a fresh bottle of Chergui last month at the Duty Free in CdG, and it was much weaker than I remembered it. The top notes seemed different, but the dry-down was the same.

I understood that the reason the label changed was that Lutens bought the business back from Shiseido.
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post #17 of 26
7/22/12 at 9:40am
I did a google and nothing is coming up about him buying the company. I always thought he worked for Shiseido in his early days, and they started his perfume range and owned it all along.?

If anyone can find the details please post a link.
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post #18 of 26
7/22/12 at 11:06am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Guyer View Post

I understood that the reason the label changed was that Lutens bought the business back from Shiseido.

There may still be some tie-in with Shiseido ( their name seems still to be etched into the bottom of new bottles ?) but like yourself, I thought there had been....some kind of something that happened where Serge gained more control of his perfume....or something like that.

The switch to the "SL" logo....I kind of thought that was an indication of whatever the change was ? And may provide some kind of rough time frame for when the juice was made.
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post #19 of 26
7/22/12 at 2:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by laph View Post

Thanks for the info Trebor. I've never seen releases under Symbole Luxe International; can anyone post a pic or two of these?

Here are a couple of photos of the first vintage Arabie I purchased. This one was a tester, with the only distinguishing factor being the box - taller than the usual SL boxes, due to the sprayer already being attached (so no ball cap).




Sorry but this was the best I could do for the label at the base of the bottle...

If you look closely at the second line of text, you'll be able to spot most of 'Symbole Luxe International'. Also notice that the label isn't transparent but an opaque bronze colour.




When I first received it, I was extremely close to accusing the seller of selling a fake (the seller said they obtained it during a closing down sale). But instead of getting all irrational, I asked for a couple of days to evaluate the bottle. After testing the juice against the one I bought back in 2006, as well as doing a bit of goggling, I reached the conclusion that I had the vintage formulation (which smelled exactly like the samples I obtained in early 2006).

The 2006 bottle smelt thin and didn't last as long as the Symbole Luxe International juice. I had always known that my 2006 bottle didn't smell right, especially based on my memory of the samples I had previously used. The fact I was a Basenotes newbie, at the time, speaks volumes...
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post #20 of 26
7/22/12 at 3:18pm
Trebor, this last post of yours is a treasure. Incredible, thank you. To know that even in 2006 (!!!) the fragrance had been "thinned out" leaves me completely speechless, as I always regarded these versions as the measure of all things Lutenesque and was "only" worried about the recent attenuation. Once again, thank you so much for your post that forged a bridge over a decade of Lutens' reformulations to the point where I now would paraphrase L. Turin and speak, as others have already done, of "The Fall of the House of Lutens".
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post #21 of 26
7/22/12 at 3:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Candide View Post

Trebor, this last post of yours is a treasure. Incredible, thank you. To know that even in 2006 (!!!) the fragrance had been "thinned out" leaves me completely speechless, as I always regarded these versions as the measure of all things Lutenesque and was "only" worried about the recent attenuation. Once again, thank you so much for your post that forged a bridge over a decade of Lutens' reformulations to the point where I now would paraphrase L. Turin and speak, as others have already done, of "The Fall of the House of Lutens".

Many thanks, Candide!

Now you can understand why I've been very hostile, whenever I mention Serge Lutens. People have been praising him for openly admitting to the recent formulations, but what they don't realise is that he's been gradually reformulating his fragrances for almost a decade! It's only because of the IFRA restrictions why he's come clean, otherwise he probably would have still been denying reformulating anything (like every other fragrance house).

Before buying that 2006 bottle, I read an interview where he stated that he would never dream of reformulating any of his works. I would say that's the source of my discontentment with him, because I actually believed him and got burnt that same year! I can now understand why Christopher Sheldrake left - who would want to hang around and witness (as well as participate in) the butchering of their 'perfect' compositions? Yes, walking away and starting from scratch was probably the best option available to him.

Btw, here's a thread I made about it in 2006. Being a relative newbie, I took the advice of those who responded. I still appreciate their responses as no-one was the wiser at the time:

http://www.basenotes.net/threads/189...my-Arabie-Help!
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post #22 of 26
7/22/12 at 8:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Guyer View Post

I tried a fresh bottle of Chergui last month at the Duty Free in CdG, and it was much weaker than I remembered it. The top notes seemed different, but the dry-down was the same.

I understood that the reason the label changed was that Lutens bought the business back from Shiseido.

Kevin, I understand in Paris the boutique is still called Les Salon du Palais Royal Shiseido. As of this writing, the Web site also has this. The Shiseido logo is a little quatrefoil with a stylised flower of the cosmetics line. I recall that Feminite du Bois by Sheldrake was market by Shiseido when it was released in 1992 or so.

http://www.sergelutens.com/vente/les...oyal-shiseido/
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post #23 of 26
7/23/12 at 8:58am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trebor View Post

Here are a couple of photos of the first vintage Arabie I purchased..... I reached the conclusion that I had the vintage formulation (which smelled exactly like the samples I obtained in early 2006).

A bit hard to see, but if that batch number starts with "D", and the de-codeing information listed above extends that far into the past ( no reason to think that they did not start with "A" at some point in time) that would mean this "Luxe" bottle is from around 1995 ?

Could it really be over 25 years old ? And that Luxe was doing their marketing as far back as that ?

I was only able to access the first paragraph or so of the Highbeam article, which seemed to be heading into greater detail as to the ways in which the distribution of the Lutens perfumes evolved.

It seemed to indicate that Luxe took over in 2000, but if "D" means 1995, then the Luxe label may have been used on bottles even before the 2000 date that the article seems to mention ?
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post #24 of 26
7/23/12 at 12:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdboy48 View Post

A bit hard to see, but if that batch number starts with "D", and the de-codeing information listed above extends that far into the past ( no reason to think that they did not start with "A" at some point in time) that would mean this "Luxe" bottle is from around 1995 ?

Could it really be over 25 years old ? And that Luxe was doing their marketing as far back as that ?

I was only able to access the first paragraph or so of the Highbeam article, which seemed to be heading into greater detail as to the ways in which the distribution of the Lutens perfumes evolved.

It seemed to indicate that Luxe took over in 2000, but if "D" means 1995, then the Luxe label may have been used on bottles even before the 2000 date that the article seems to mention ?

If you look at the photo from a certain angle (preferably looking downwards towards the screen but close-up) most of 'Symbole Luxe International' is pretty clear (especially the last two-thirds of that line).

Looking at the article, dated February 2000, Symbole Luxe International is mentioned in the future tense. Therefore, Symbole Luxe International was either not involved with Serge Lutens or didn't exist prior 2000.

Btw, Arabie was also released in 2000, so it sounds like your theory about the batch codes needs a rethink...

- - - Updated - - -

Just to help you out further, here are the codes of all the Arabie bottles I've owned:

2006 bottle: MLW 15 X
Vintage bottle 1: slightly unclear but I think it's DYS 12 X
Vintage bottle 2: pretty much illegible but the first letter is either 'D' or 'B'
Fond de Parfum bottle: FJ 701 X (as stated on the box as well)
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post #25 of 26
7/24/12 at 8:15am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trebor View Post

Btw, Arabie was also released in 2000, so it sounds like your theory about the batch codes needs a rethink...

Yes, I'm beginning to think the same thing. Perhaps the coding method mentioned originally only works a certain number of years back.

At the same time, I'm still up in the air about when they switched from the Palace Royal logo over to the "SL" logo.

As with most things relating to commercial logo changes, one would think it happened after a certain specific date.
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post #26 of 26
7/24/12 at 8:57am
I believe it was when Bas de Soie was released. That is the first one I have it one, ie new releases. So 18 months at most is my guess.
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