First-Time eBay fragrance fake. Now what?

Grrr. I was sold a fake 100ml Fahrenheit on eBay. The first sign was the top of the bottle. The sprayer is black, as it should be, but the nozzle (is that what it's called?) is white. In other words, the tiny round circle from which sprays the juice. It's white.

Suspecting something wasn't right, I went to Macy's and sprayed myself with their Fahrenheit tester. Then I came home and sprayed myself with the one I received today from eBay. The juice is a mess, as you can probably guess. It's mostly alcohol, I assume. It's faint at best.

I've bought from eBay before but I've never had a problem, so I have no idea what steps to take next, other than contacting the seller.

...advice please?

UPDATE POSTED BELOW ON 8/23/12

THANK YOU!

His listing says he accepts returns for 14 days and the buyer pays shipping. I hate to have to pay to ship a fake item. Sheesh.

As if being sent a fake isn't bad enough, the seller was so slow in shipping the item that it took nearly two weeks to get to me. Instead of the promised 3-4 days as stated in the ad, it took 11. Bah.

His feedback is excellent - but - there isn't a lot of it. Interestingly, the package came with a business card. He blacked out his ebay ID on the business card, but it has his phone number and email. Still, I'm contacting him only through ebay at this point. I'm hoping this will be easy to work out.

Thank you SO much for the thorough replies and excellent advice! I really sincerely appreciate it.

Absolutely.

Well, the juice smells nothing like Fahrenheit and the bottle has an obvious difference from a real bottle. The prayer is white!



I got an ebay message from the seller saying to ship the item back for a refund, but this presents the following issues:

#1 - I shouldn't have to pay shipping since I was sold counterfeit goods.
#2 - If I ship this back to him, he's just going to turn around and sell it to someone else.

Good lord, ebay really throws up hoops to jump through. The seller wants me to pay to ship this back to him, and I'm seeing a 15% restocking fee! RESTOCKING? How can he restock a counterfeit item!? Also, he hasn't marked the item as paid even though I see that the payment went through. Since the seller hasn't marked the item as paid, when I try to open a case, ebay is telling me the item hasn't been paid for.

I'm trying to figure out how to file a SNAD claim, but I keep getting stuck at the page that says the item hasn't been marked by the seller as Paid For. The seller even noted in an email exchange explaining the delay in shipping the item to me that he/she waited for my PayPal payment to go through. So, it didn't ship to me until it was paid for, which means clearly it WAS paid for.

I don't have an update quite yet. The seller offered to let me dispose of the fake if I accept getting less of a return. I paid $50. If he'll do that for $45 I'll agree to it, but right now it sounds more like he's thinking $35. I am not ok with him (or is it a her? Actually, I'm thinking it's a her) to profit from selling fakes. If this isn't worked out by tomorrow, I'm going to file a SNAD claim. I'm still stuck getting past the challenge that the seller hasn't marked the item as paid for even though it has been paid for. That's a stumbling block for filing a SNAD claim. I'm sure there's a way around it since it's easy to prove I paid.

I just looked and saw "Unmark payment as sent" which means the payment has been marked as sent. When I try to report a problem through ebay, I keep hitting this stumbling block:

"This item hasn't been paid for yet. We're sorry there's a problem with your purchase. It doesn't look like this item has been paid for yet. If you've already paid for this item, you can ask your seller to mark the item as paid. If you haven't paid for the item yet, please pay now."

...but the item has been paid for. Heck, even EBAY knows this! In the message from ebay, pay now is a link. When I click it, I'm taken to a page that says "You have already completed checkout for this order." Also, when I check my bank account, I see the payment was made.

GOOD GRIEF EBAY!

How the heck do I get past this?

I called ebay and got a person.

Because I used an echeck through paypal, it's looking like I'd have to file a case through PayPal instead of ebay (because echecks take longer to completely clear through ebay, it would be easy to miss the ebay deadline to file a claim... and I can't file a claim through ebay until the echeck has fully cleared. That's pretty messed up in my opinion, since PayPay shows the echeck as being "cleared" and my own bank shows the money has been sent).

I can't help wondering if sellers who deal in fraudulent items intentionally only accept paypal echecks as payment in an effort to slow down the process.

UPDATE: Wow, PayPal is really a mess. They've fought me every step of the way. They offered me a full refund, including original shipping, but they also required that I send the counterfeit back to the seller - y'know, the person who makes a living dealing in counterfeits... the person who wanted the item back so she could illegally sell it again on ebay. Yeah. PayPal really does an excellent job of protecting fraudulent ebay sellers.

When I flatly refused to send the item back to the seller, PayPal said I had two other options in order to get a full refund:
- Have the item confiscated by the manufacturer, or...
- Have the item confiscated by the police.

I went to the police. A detective was more than happy to confiscate the item. He explained how this stuff happens all the time and that he has contacts with a rep from Dior. He gave me his business card and, more importantly, he gave me a receipt for the item - an official police document labeled "Property/Evidence Receipt" where three items are listed as being in police custody:
- a counterfeit bottle of Dior Fahrenheit perfume
- the seller's business card
- the box the item was shipped in (which contains the seller's address)

I'd been getting the runaround from PayPal, so, I scanned the officer's business card and the police evidence receipt. I called PayPal and spoke with a supervisor. I uploaded the scanned documents while speaking to the supervisor and had him note in my case's records that he had seen both.

Two days later, PayPal closed my case in favor of the seller. WHAT?!? I called PayPal and was told they had no proof the item was in police hands.

ME: "You mean, like a receipt of counterfeit evidence from the police?"
PayPal: "Yes, sir. That is what we need."

I asked the person at PayPal to read me the name of the most recent files I'd uploaded for this case.

"Police Business Card and Receipt Of Evidence."

Lesson learned: Even when you do everything right in a fight against a fraudulent seller, be prepared for a fight from PayPal every step of the way. PayPal has since reopened my case as well as escalating a case against the seller (police involvement sure helps there!) and they told me I should expect it to be resolved within three days.

Here's the crazy part: ebay confirmed the seller has at least three suspended ebay accounts. AT LEAST THREE. But they let her keep on selling on ebay. And the seller is hilarious. She tried to charge me a restocking fee. A fee to restock a counterfeit item? She desperately wanted to me to send the item back. That wasn't going to happen. I offered to send it back if she'd agree to let me break it first. She wouldn't respond to that request. She told me it was against PayPal rules to issue me a refund without receiving the item back. I confirmed this was untrue and gave her the name and operator ID of a specific supervisor at PayPal to speak with. Then she hit me with a sob story: she's a single mom with three kids and this is her only source of income. Later, she told me that dealing with me was stressful for her AND HER HUSBAND. A single mom with a husband? That's a new one! The seller offered me a bribe in exchange for not giving her negative feedback, which I of course declined, but I was happy to report that to ebay since feedback manipulation is against ebay rules.

All I wanted was a full refund and to destroy the counterfeit so it couldn't be resold. The seller was nuts to not give me that. Instead, she's in for a mess because she now has PayPal, ebay and the police involved with separate cases against her and her business. But she was so concerned with figuring out how to make money from this transaction that she didn't think it through.

Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh!

A few tips for anyone here who gets a counterfeit on ebay:

- Document Everything! If you speak to someone on ebay or paypal, write down that person's name and a quick note about what you talked about. It may feel like overkill at the time, but believe me, you will need that info later!

- Only communicate with the seller by messages on ebay even if you have the seller's real email and phone number. Those messages will be evidence in your case. Use them to your benefit while building a case against the seller.

- Be polite but FIRM in those messages. You want a full refund including shipping plus permission to destroy the counterfeit item. Don't get into verbal arguments with the seller. Remember: those messages are evidence against the seller. Use them to your benefit.

- Avoid opening a case with PayPal if you can. Go through ebay first. I found that PayPal was just another layer to get in the way. You - ebay - seller is a lot less convoluted than you - paypal - ebay - seller.

- When dealing with representatives from either ebay or PayPal, you're going to get roadblocks. It's not that they want to protect counterfeiters. They just want to protect themselves (ebay and paypal) and would rather not deal with anything legal. Their goal is to get you to send the item back so they can label the case as "Item not as described." Each time you get stuck with someone, end the conversation politely. Hang up. Then call back and talk to someone else.

- Again, when you get stuck, call back and speak to someone else.

- Last, but not least: keep in mind that ebay and PayPal record phone calls. Remember the bit I mentioned about documenting everything? It's really helpful to be able to remind them of who you spoke with at what day and time about what. You really have to push ebay and/or PayPal to deal with you. Not rudely, but firmly and with facts. If the representative says he or she is noting something for your case, have that person read it back to you. It's amazing how much you have to push to get them to note anything you actually tell them. Again, all ebay and PayPal want is to close the case without having to acknowledge criminal wrongdoing via their services. They really seem to go out of their way to avoid dealing with the word counterfeit. They want to just label everything as "Item was not as described."

- DON'T SEND THE COUNTERFEIT BACK TO THE SELLER! You may very well have been sold a fake because somebody else returned it to the seller. Don't be part of that cycle.

- Document everything. I can't stress that point enough.

GOOD LUCK!!!

- - - Updated - - -


Exactly. You really have to force them to do the right thing. It's sad, but you really have to force ebay and PayPal to be ethical businesses. CRAZY, but true. Their #1 goal is to close cases and avoid dealing with anything.

I've been using PayPal for over a decade. I'm no noob there.



I did this. She offered me a refund, but she fought me every step of the way in hopes of still making money from our transaction. Restocking fee? For counterfeit goods? I don't think so. Pay to ship the item back to her? I don't think so. We're not talking about an item I wasn't happy with as if it's some kind of buyer's remorse. The item was a counterfeit. It needed to be destroyed.

I will not return a counterfeit item to a seller so she can sell it to another unsuspecting customer and I hope others on basenotes would agree. We don't like getting stiffed with fakes. If we return the fakes, we're part of the problem of fakes on ebay since we help keep fakes on ebay.



NO.

I cannot, in good conscience, return counterfeit goods to someone who profits by cheating people with counterfeit goods. Nor would I give gasoline back to an arsonist. Or give a knife back to a mugger.

I made it crystal clear to the seller I would be happy to resolve the matter in exchange for a full refund and her permission to destroy the counterfeit. I offered to send her proof that I'd destroyed the counterfeit or even ship her the destroyed counterfeit if she wished. She wanted it back in perfect condition so she could sell it again to somebody else. No way.



YES! I made the mistake of opening a case at PayPal, and that turned out to be a huge hassle because a PayPal case automatically closes a case at ebay. Then again, in the end, it may work out for the best because I'm getting my money back, the counterfeit will be destroyed, and the seller will be royally screwed.



Actually, it doesn't sound silly at all. It's an excellent point, and it goes along with my comments about documenting everything. Simply put, it's a smart move. Know what you're talking about, and then speak in a way that reflects this.



Agreed. The people at PayPal and ebay are just doing their jobs, and their jobs are to resolve matters as quickly as possible without getting PayPal and ebay in legal trouble. That's why there isn't even a way to report counterfeit goods. They want to say no more than that an item wasn't as described, get the item returned, issue a refund and close the case.

The person on the phone isn't to blame, but ASKING SOMEONE TO RETURN A COUNTERFEIT TO A SELLER OF COUNTERFEITS IS AN ABSOLUTELY ABYSMAL BUSINESS PRACTICE and both ebay and PayPal should be ashamed that they don't have a better way of protecting their customers, including their future customers. Ebay in particular needs to do a better job of making sure counterfeits sold on ebay get destroyed rather than sold again on ebay. Asking someone who was cheated to send the counterfeit back so the seller can cheat someone else is absolutely unquestionably pathetic as a business practice. I cannot state this strongly enough. It is not acceptable for PayPal or ebay to offer someone a refund only if that person will send a counterfeit item back to someone who makes a living selling counterfeits.

Remember: ebay is aware that this particular seller already has three suspended accounts! Also, the seller agreed it was a fake and offered me a bribe in exchange for a 5 star review. If I would have said yes, she'd have even let me keep the fake, but how would others on ebay find out not to trust that seller if people like me lie and say she is outstanding? I never said I would give the seller a negative review, but I did tell her I would not lie and give a positive review.

In the end, because she refused to allow me to destroy the item, she got a 1 star review with negative feedback stating she sells fakes and cannot be trusted, plus a case against her at PayPal and a report with documentation against her at ebay, and I'm getting my money back, shipping included.



Absolutely. The sellers are just trying to protect their businesses. A seller who doesn't deal in counterfeits will probably be very willing to work with a buyer who received a fake. Sellers who deal in counterfeits know all of the steps they can take to slow down the process in hopes of getting away with it since their entire business depends on getting away with it. That's why I'm so shocked the seller didn't agree to give me a refund and let me destroy the counterfeit. She could have avoided so much trouble.



I DON'T.

I want sellers who profit by dealing in counterfeits to get kicked off of ebay and PayPal, and I won't mind if those sellers get in legal trouble too. I want ebay and PayPal to get annoyed enough or be pressured enough to have to take steps to get criminals off of their services since they (ebay and PayPal) should NOT be profiting from illegal activity. I believe that ebay and PayPal have their systems rigged to avoid ever acknowledging counterfeits (and probably other illegal activity as well). They just want to make money and hope problems go away. I find that unacceptable. Ebay needs to be a safe place to buy and sell. There is no excuse for ebay to tolerate sellers of counterfeits, especially when those sellers already have multiple suspended accounts!

I find it offensive that PayPal offered me a refund IF I WOULD RETURN THE COUNTERFEIT TO THE COUNTERFEIT SELLER. I was offered money if I'd assist the seller in committing future crime. I am not ok with that. Absolutely not.

Ebay needs to take counterfeits seriously. I'm still blown away that ebay and PayPal both wanted me to return a counterfeit to the seller. That's crazy. I'd have been thrilled to send it back to the seller if ebay had some way of tracking it to bust the seller when she'd put it up for sale again, but that's not how it works.

Ebay isn't going to take steps to keep counterfeits off their site unless enough of us demand that they do. I've done my part.

The seller had already agreed via messages on ebay that the item was a fake. PayPal wasn't interested. At one point, I was specifically told by PayPal that documentation of the counterfeit would not change the outcome of my case because they required that I send the counterfeit back to the seller in order to get a refund. I offered to have a rep from Dior document that it was a fake. PayPal wasn't interested. PayPal even credited my account with $5 to cover the cost of the return shipping even though I made it clear that I would not under any circumstances sent the counterfeit back to the seller. PayPal REALLY wanted me to drop the matter and return the item so they could wipe their hands clean of the whole thing. That is NOT acceptable.

PayPal is a very unethical business in my opinion. I believe they will do whatever they can to avoid dealing with issues of legality even if their actions are unethical. I can't comment on how ethical ebay is because I never got the chance to work with them on this matter. My ebay case was closed automatically when I opened a case against the seller on PayPal.

The issue was never the refund. PayPay didn't fight me on that.