This thread is interesting, even though it is veering a little off from the original post's intent.
Originally Posted by Sugandaraja
I don't have a problem with synthetics; I judge based on the quality of the composition as my nose smells it.
At least people would be able to pronounce it better. It does not rhyme with rude, people...
Strangely, from the dictionaries I have checked, oud
as pronounced in English does rhyme with 'rude'. Dictionaries only show the definition of "lute" for oud
, but its origin is the same Arabic word عود.
Originally Posted by Hilaire
I actually have no problem pronouncing the word according to Arabic standard pronunciation, I have enough passing familiarity with Arabic not to make a total fool of myself when pronouncing Arabic words in the company of my Arabic speaking friends. Like you when a name occurs in another language I tend to try to pronounce it according to the relevant standard pronunciation rules, for my own personal gratification. Though I admit to taking the odd traditional British English liberty with French now and then, something the 1000 or so year history of interrelation between the two languages allows for.
However, when you see the word "Oud" incorporated into an English language name pronouncing it "ood" is in fact correct, because as I pointed out earlier in the thread "Oud" pronounced "ood" is actually a loan word which is not pronounced according to Arabic pronunciation rules, just as the French "Oude" is not pronounced according to Arabic pronunciation rules.
My point is that pedantry (or indeed snobbery) in this instance would require you to be clear about what exactly you are trying to pronounce. Leather Oud, Pure Oud, Rose Oud, Incense Oud etc are all English names in form, meaning that the "Oud" used in them is pronounced perfectly correctly as the loanword which sounds like "ood". Al Oudh, Dehn al Oudh Moattaq, Dehn al Oudh Abiyad etc clearly transliterate the forms of Arabic names and therefore the pronunciation of the word "Oudh" would be (if you're attempting to be accurate) pronounced according to standard Arabic pronunciation rules.
My point about all this in general is that while it's fine to be pedantic for one's own amusement or satisfaction, making pronouncements about what is "proper" or "improper" about how other people pronounce things is both a mild form of snobbery and something which you really need to be as accurate about as possible, if you absolutely must make pronouncements of that kind at all of course.
Originally Posted by hedonist222
Common practice doesn't make anything "perfectly correct". It simply indicates a lack of knowledge regarding the word. We've (non-French) all pronounced Guerlain as Gurlane untill we found out its Gurla. Some were wordly enough to advance themselves by saying it correctly, others not so much.
We, at least we should, strive to pronounce something correctly. There is no excuse to pronounce something purposefully wrong. It just shows a lack of wordliness.
I also generally agree with Hilaire. Words are often loaned into a language, and have to fit the phonology of that, and this seems true for oud
, at least in perfume now. Yes, it is true that more worldly folks will know the origins of the word, and may indeed be able to pronounce it according to the original language's, but for the majority of a language's speakers, this is unlikely to be the case.
And it boils down to the context of the use of the pronunciation. To English speakers, because of a history of extensive borrowing in the language, a word like oud
has developed its own pronunciation, and it is not actually wrong to pronounce it with English phonology. Therefore, there is no intention to purposefully pronounce something wrong, because it is not incorrect! English is English, not Arabic.
Now, I would cringe at weird language mixes for names such as the aforementioned 'Rouge Woods'. How should I pronounce it? Half French half English? Would the SA understand me if I pronounced the 'rouge' portion in French? Luckily, 'rouge' appears to be pronounced the same in both French and English (pronunciation borrowed from French too).