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Powdery bases

post #1 of 20
8/30/12 at 5:59am
Thread Starter 
Hi,

I am looking for the distinctive soft powdery scent that you can find, for example, in Narciso Rodriguez for woman.

I have been trying several white musks, but I got nowhere near that clean powdery impression. I have read something about Amberlyn, but i have not been able to find more information. Do you know something about it?

Any hints about what to try for a soft clean powdery base?

Thanks!
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post #2 of 20
8/30/12 at 7:47am
I think Velvione may be what you are looking for. I find it's quite dry though, so you may need to add something to it to sweeten it. If you want to keep to the powdery musk vibe then Exaltolide works well in combination.

Amberlyn is the same as Ambrox or Ambroxide [but not quite the same as Ambroxan or -(-)Ambroxide] - essentially a synthetic ambergris. It has a dry, diffusive, exalting quality but I wouldn't describe it as powdery on its own. In combination with a powdery musk like velvione it might take you towards what you are looking for though.

Among natural materials I find that olibanum (frankincense) essential oil can generate that quality, though you get quite a strong top-note with that and I doubt it's the source of the powdery note in many commercial fragrances.

Hope that helps.
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post #3 of 20
8/30/12 at 9:40am
heliotropin
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post #4 of 20
8/30/12 at 10:00am
Thread Starter 
Thanks Chris, your wisdom is amazing as usual. I had tried Velvione but the result is too dry indeed. Maybe with your suggestions I will get nearer my goal.

Do you think Cosmone would contribute to that effect also?

I will also try Heliotropin, (thanks Versailles) although I doubt it will smell as balmy as the scent I have in mind.

Will keep you informed.
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post #5 of 20
8/30/12 at 10:32am
Cosmone could well contribute, yes, as could celestolide, which also has a powdery aspect. I nearly always use musks in combination, partly because they almost all work better that way, but also because different people smell different musks at different strengths - so using a few helps to even it out so that most people smell something similar.

Another thing you might try to sweeten the velvione is a touch of methyl laitone - but only a trace or you'll end up with candy floss.

Heliotropin certainly adds a powdery quality and may also help with the sweetening, as long as you don't have a problem buying it in Madrid: I believe throughout Europe you need a license.
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post #6 of 20
8/30/12 at 12:45pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks again Chris.

Both main Spanish providers, Ventos and Lluch Essence, carry heliotropin (or piperonal, I think it´s the same molecule) in their catalogues. I am not sure about what kind of license is needed to buy it. Not sure either if the heliotropin replacer on sale at PA and others is a good alternative in this regard.

For the sweet touch I used a tiny bit of ethyl maltol. Maybe your suggestion will work better.

It seems I now have a good batch of things to try out. Will keep you posted.
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post #7 of 20
8/30/12 at 1:40pm
ethyl maltol will make it syrupy and candy flossy/caramalized sugar depending on how you dose, unfortunately you may backtrack and lose the powder that you want
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post #8 of 20
8/30/12 at 2:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Javiero View Post

Thanks again Chris.

Both main Spanish providers, Ventos and Lluch Essence, carry heliotropin (or piperonal, I think it´s the same molecule) in their catalogues. I am not sure about what kind of license is needed to buy it. Not sure either if the heliotropin replacer on sale at PA and others is a good alternative in this regard.

For the sweet touch I used a tiny bit of ethyl maltol. Maybe your suggestion will work better.

It seems I now have a good batch of things to try out. Will keep you posted.

Most suppliers do carry Heliotropin - piperonal is indeed the same molecule - but they may require evidence of a license before selling it to you. I have not tried the replacer that PA sell, but I routinely use veratraldehyde to replace heliotropin and find it to be very effective.

Ethyl maltol will work too so long as you stick to traces - similar to methyl laitone - I keep both at 1% dilution and still use just a few parts per 1000 as they can easily overwhelm a blend, but traces can be transformative.

Good luck!
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post #9 of 20
8/30/12 at 3:09pm
I must comment that Chris Bartlett's knowledge of fragrances is quite impressive. Kudos!
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post #10 of 20
8/30/12 at 3:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by senore01 View Post

I must comment that Chris Bartlett's knowledge of fragrances is quite impressive. Kudos!

Chris is very knowledgeable indeed, I've just looked through his website link and I'm going to order a sample pack of his perfumes next month when I get paid again!

Javiero - superdiluting ethyl maltol is your best bet if you're going to work with it as Chris says, I'd jump in with some secondary advice and that would be to pick up some isobutivan if you haven't already got it. In laymens terms this is the aromachem "cream soda", something that is already powdery to begin with. You can be a bit more heavy handed with it, and in my opinion it will work to sweeten without fighting against your endgoal.

try them both and see which one works better, would be interesting to hear your feedback as well!
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post #11 of 20
8/31/12 at 1:28am
Thread Starter 
Thanks a lot, Versailles and Chris. I will try all your suggestions (I need to order veratetraldehyde and isobutivan) and I will let you know the results.

I have a lot to learn indeed...
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post #12 of 20
8/31/12 at 7:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Versailles View Post

Chris is very knowledgeable indeed, I've just looked through his website link and I'm going to order a sample pack of his perfumes next month when I get paid again!

Javiero - superdiluting ethyl maltol is your best bet if you're going to work with it as Chris says, I'd jump in with some secondary advice and that would be to pick up some isobutivan if you haven't already got it. In laymens terms this is the aromachem "cream soda", something that is already powdery to begin with. You can be a bit more heavy handed with it, and in my opinion it will work to sweeten without fighting against your endgoal.

try them both and see which one works better, would be interesting to hear your feedback as well!

Thanks for the kind words everyone - it's much appreciated.

Isobutavan is good advice and I should also have mentioned the option of using vanillin or ethyl vanillin - classic sweeteners and nothing like so powerful as ethyl maltol or methyl laitone. Vanillin in particular can be used relatively freely (though I still normally keep mine diluted to 1%) and it's cheap too.
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post #13 of 20
9/4/12 at 1:13pm
Thread Starter 
Update:

A combination of Velvione and Cosmone took me much closer to the desired powdery quality. Thanks, Chris.

I remain unconvinced about either ethyl maltol and methyl laitone as modifiers. Both sweeten the mix, but also turn it somewhat "darker" and "cloudier" in the olfactory sense.

I have not yet been able to get Isobutavan. I am waiting for it to arrive. I have also ordered some beeswax absolute, on a hunch that could prove totally misguided. Will keep you posted on that.

Heliotropin and Veratetraldehyde don´t seem to noticeably improve the mix.

Vanilla absolute and Ethyl Vanillyn were already in my original formula. The mix works well, I don´t feel the need to change this part.

From my original goal, I consider the "powdery" part achieved. I am still in search of the "soft clean" sensation, a "brightness" or "whiteness" that makes Narciso Rodriguez for Her so distinctive.

Do you share my perception of these qualities in that perfume? What is your opinion about it? Do you think this soft bright powdery sensation can be isolated?
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post #14 of 20
9/4/12 at 1:24pm
I'm actually unfamiliar with NR for her.. well briefly I remember smelling it.

maybe habanolide is what you are looking for ? this is a white musk with clean dryer sheets or ironed linen type overtones, very fresh, very white. I have a feeling this might be what you need

- - - Updated - - -

I'm actually unfamiliar with NR for her.. well briefly I remember smelling it.

maybe habanolide is what you are looking for ? this is a white musk with clean dryer sheets or ironed linen type overtones, very fresh, very white. I have a feeling this might be what you need
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post #15 of 20
9/5/12 at 4:32am
Habanolide is a good idea, or you might try Celestolide too for adding that bit of brightness. Another option would be a very tiny proportion of ultrazur or perhaps floralozone (you'd need a bit more of the latter) would do it.
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post #16 of 20
9/5/12 at 5:39am
Thread Starter 
Thanks a lot Versailles and Chris for your interest.

I had already tried these last suggestions. Habanolide reminds me of fabric softener. Celestolide and Ultrazur have a nuance a bit too ozonic for what I am trying to achieve. I did not try floralozone, but the very name points in this direction too.

As usual, it´s hard to describe in words what I have in mind. Soft clean bright powdery, but not dry, metallic, ozonic or aseptic. When you have the opportunity, try a sample of my reference for this quest (Narciso for her, the one in the black bottle).
Smell it a after couple of hours (well into the drydown phase). If interested, I could mail you a vial.

This is becoming a bit of an obsession. I am trying to isolate the accord that makes this perfume so special. As you can guess, there is a curious story and a special person behind this. I promise to tell you the story once I achieve my goal
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post #17 of 20
9/5/12 at 6:52am
I normally use floralozone below the level of conscious detection to get a gentle brightening, but if you are sensitive to the ozone note it might well be a problem.

Another suggestion would be to try a little trans-2-cis-6-nonadienal: you'll need to dilute to 0.1% and even then only use a tiny proportion or you'll suddenly have a great big cucumber on your hands, but if you use just a touch it can have a great brightening effect. It is also extremely long-lasting, which will be important in this case.
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post #18 of 20
9/5/12 at 1:26pm
Thread Starter 
Chris, I will try your floralozone suggestion. I have nothing against the ozone note. I am just not sure if it would distort the soft character of this note.

trans-2-cis-6-nonadienal is a complete stranger to me and a new proof of your enciclopaedic knowledge. Neither Perfumer´s Apprentice nor Hekserij or Olfactik carry it in their catalogues. Ventos in Spain does, but their minimum order is one kilo. Unless I find a huge market for big cucumber scents, I don´t think it´s a good idea to order such a huge amount. Any idea about where can I find a reasonable size?
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post #19 of 20
9/6/12 at 7:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Javiero View Post

Chris, I will try your floralozone suggestion. I have nothing against the ozone note. I am just not sure if it would distort the soft character of this note.

trans-2-cis-6-nonadienal is a complete stranger to me and a new proof of your enciclopaedic knowledge. Neither Perfumer´s Apprentice nor Hekserij or Olfactik carry it in their catalogues. Ventos in Spain does, but their minimum order is one kilo. Unless I find a huge market for big cucumber scents, I don´t think it´s a good idea to order such a huge amount. Any idea about where can I find a reasonable size?

I certainly don't recommend buying a whole kilo of trans-2-cis-6-nonadienal - it's a material I like and use often but I still only buy it 100g or so at a time. There are two other places I know of that sell it in smaller amounts:

Sigma-Aldrich - but you can only buy from them if you have an account with them and getting one approved can take ages
Cotswold Perfumery - who conveniently sell 30ml ready diluted to 0.1% (it was perfumer John Steven who first introduced me to this material in fact) but again Cotswold won't sell to you if you've not been on one of their courses.

However if you just want a little to experiment with, I'm happy to sell some in the same form as Cotswold and at the same price - drop me a mail if that's what you want to do.
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post #20 of 20
9/6/12 at 1:59pm
[QUOTE=Chris Bartlett;2681725]Thanks for the kind words everyone - it's much appreciated

Long time reader of the forums, but first post...had to second the comment...Chris, you are an awesome Soul.
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