Adding Glycerine and Distilled Water for longevity

Anytime you add water and/or Glycerine you run the risk of solubility problems; depends how much, of course. To make your fragrance last longer I would reformulate, and add some more Back note/Fixative. That's what they are there for.

Your copycat fragrance is clearly not very good if it doesn't last long. Does the original last longer? If you must add Glycerine, I would add it to the alcohol before mixing with your fragrance concentrate.

The longevity of a fragrance is a part of the fragrance; it is very rare that the longevity is controlled after the fragrance has been formulated. That's one of the reasons we use base note materials that are fixatives. In all my years as a perfumer (over thirty) I have never modified the staying power of a fragrance in the way you describe. Thus the two fragrances you mention (the original and the copy) cannot be the same. Whoever matched the original didn't do it properly. The top note may be the same but it clearly doesn't perform in the same way.

I would add water to the fragrance when it is mixed into the alcohol. As I do not know the composition of the fragrance nor the type of alcohol you are using it is impossible for me to tell you how much water to add.

I agree with David here. Personally I don't generally add either glycerine or water to my alcoholic fragrances and when I do add water it is not in the expectation of it acting as a fixative, which it does not.

There is an excellent explanation of the physical and chemical factors involved in Louis Appel's work Cosmetics, Fragrances and Flavors from 1984. He starts from the basis that
Raoult's Law will apply, gives the resulting calculations of partial vapour pressure of volatile material in solvents and demonstrates that although the general form of the law predicts that there will be a reduction in partial pressure in water (which you would expect to yield reduced odour and therefore longer lasting odour) but goes on to demonstrate that experimental evidence does not support this and to derive a simple version of the law that applies to volatile aromatic substances in solvent, irrespective of the solvent, showing that the dependency is on concentration of the aromatic only.

There was also some very good evidence published in the 1970s which demonstrated that the presence of various tested fixatives did indeed have the effect of reducing the rate of evaporation of a range of tested volatile aromatics. Fixatives tested (and found to be effective) included some which might be surprising such as isopropyl myristate and hedione as well as musks, resins and so on. The same work also demonstrated that the effect of a given fixative is not uniform across a range of aromatics.

What all this science goes to prove is that there are good, evidence-based reasons why perfumers have to work hard to match the right fixative with a given blend of more volatile aromatic substances in order to make it last longer. There isn't a magic ingredient, somehow kept secret by perfume manufacturers, that is popped in at the end that somehow makes it last when before it did not. Certainly adding water will not have that effect.

I get a lot of questions about this and really, the suggestion David makes is usualy the only good solution: reformulate and make sure you use enough less volatile materials. Do not add a fixative afterwards, it is like building a house and add the mortar and nails afterwards.

Only in case reformulation is not possible you could think of other options, in that case glycerin is usualy not the best choice for an alcohol based fragrance, DEP and DPG are better choices.

DPG will have little effect on the longevity of the fragrance and by diluting the fragrance with extra solvent you will end up with a weaker product. Why not face the fact that your copycat fragrance is not a good match of the original and that nothing you can do will improve things. The only way to improve the performance is to reformulate.

I agree mainly with David, DPG or DEP (2-5%) might help a little bit, but not in all cases (depends of the formulation of the fragrance). In case you use too much it will dillute the fragrance.

The best advise is probably to make a product like a body splash: that does not need to last long.

In case you know something about formulation a fragrance you might try to improve the fragrance by adding the basenotes and fixatives it seems to lack. For instance, in case your too-cheaply-purchased-bad-formulated-copycat-fragrance was intended to smell like Chanel no5 you could add some coumarin, oakmoss absolute, benzyl salicylate and musks, for Opium you could try vanillin, coumarin, EO Patchouli, benzyl salicylate and benzoin siam resinoid. In both cases the fragrance will change, it will smell different.

There is not a good general solution to your problem. Best solution is therefor: reformulating the fragrance or, in case you don't want to do it yourself: purchase a better formulated fragrance. Be prepared to pay the higher price if needed and test it before purchasing a large amount.

Chris, if the odor strength can be expressed by the partial pressure of the aromatic and if the partial pressure does not depend on the solvent, how can I understand - according to the theory - the effect of fixatives on the (longer lasting) acting time of the aromatic of interest? Sounds odd, but what happens if I use a fixative as solvent... Can someone explain to me what the physics behind using fixatives is? Does it not have anything to do with partial pressures? And another thing I got confused is the implied statement that water does not reduce the odor strength. I am sure that this is not what you meant to imply.

DPG is cheaper than ethanol when considering excise and transport cost due to the flamabilty of ethanol, besides that in bulk both are cheap.

DPG is most used in the fragrance industry as a solvent. That can be either a way to make the product cheaper (for DPG is cheaper than most fragrances), to adjust the fragrance strength (for instance you sell 10 different fragrance compounds and want all to be used at 3%, in that case you could add some DPG to the stronger of the fragrances), to solve solid fragrances (in liquid it is easier to handle). DPG is compatible with most water based products and helps solubilizing in more oil based products. Then it is not flamable.

Let 's assume that your fragrance oil consists of only fragrance materials, it is not dilluted with cheap solvents, in that case 12-20% fragrance oil would make perfume strenght. If it would be a cheaply made product it might consist of 20% fragrance materials and 80% solvents. Therefor it is not possible to give a general formulation for fragrance oils, you simply have to try what works.

For perfume I would use only ethanol + the general additions like UV protection and antioxidant. No reason in general to add DPG. In an alcoholic perfume replacing ethanol partialy by DPG will make it less radiant and the perfume may be longer as a liquid on the skin.

Sorry , if you are not going to take any notice of me, I'm not going to play. DPG is not a fixative; OK?

I've found that ISO Super extends the longevity to some fragrances.

Chris B mentioned several materials that have been shown to have fixative properties. However using any or all of them will change the structure of your original fragrance. Once again I will repeat what I have written before. Your copycat fragrance(s) is (are) not good. If the original fragrance has greater longevity than your match, the match is not good. Get it matched properly. Other than than that, there is little you can do without changing the fragrance. If that doesn't matter, then go ahead.

Sorry to be absent from this discussion for so long, things are very busy with me at the moment, so I'm going to make this brief and come back to the complicated question of partial pressures another time.

Increasing the concentration will almost certainly increase the strength of your fragrance, it will probably have only a very slight effect on it's longevity however.

Given that you have a lot of concentrate already, rather than waste it, try this (with a small amount first):

30% fragrance oil
10% IPM (isopropyl myristate)
8% DEP (diethyl pthalate)
2% BA (benzyl alcohol)
50% ethanol at 96%

If you don't have BA, IPM or DEP use any two or one alone or just miss out all and see what it's like with the 30/70 ratio but all ethanol. Don't use more than 2% BA as it's restricted.

That's the only way I think you might increase longevity without significantly altering the fragrance.

Adding Iso E Super will increase longevity, but will also change the smell - but could be worth a try - 1-5% would probably have a beneficial effect, but the fragrance will seem 'thicker' and more robust than before.

I would mix them all at the same time. You certainly want the Iso E Super in early on. I think you'll know within a day or two whether this has been a success - you won't need to wait weeks to try it out.

I don't think BA is necessary unless the plan you've come up with does not work satisfactorily - it will act slightly differently than the other fixatives and I suggested it because it is such a common constituent in natural scents and works well to fix florals in particular, which the other things do less well, on the other hand the restriction limits what you can do with it.

I wouldn't use more than about 10% DPG or you may find the resulting perfume is too sticky - it's much thicker than IPM or DEP.

BTW if you need more Iso E Super I have an excess and can sell some on - I bought loads because it was a bargain (!)

Why do I or anyone else bother; "smellsliketeenspirit 'do what the hell you like, and good luck. No point in giving you advice as you will do whatever you want.

I would like to come back to the open question in this thread of partial pressures and fixatives. I understand it now and I will boil it down to the main idea: We observe a group of school-boys as they play football and stick together. Then we observe a group of school-girls as they stick together. After these two observations we still don't know what happens if we mix boys and girls. Raoult's law assumes that interactions between boys and girls don't make a change and can be neglected in a mixed group. But we know from experience that boys and girls are very different so that the interactions between boys and girls change things a lot. We might observe that boys and girls attract each other even more and won't let each other go, so the vaporization decreases. Raoult's law is only applicable for two materials with similar properties regarding polarity, mass etc. There is an interesting paper from 1976 about fixatives, see for example the discussion section:
http://www.perfumersapprentice.com/p...6_fixation.pdf

OK...........
let me tell you that how to make a perfume..
first of all you need 200% pure alchol .......if it is not posibul then get 100% to make a solvent
the second one you need pg(propilane glacol)
the third one you need dpg(de propilane glacol)
and 4th one you need ipm(iso proplen mearstate)
and after that you need methnool
ofcourse you need distiled water
.................................................. ...
now all you have to do is just take a dark optical bottle and pure 50% alchol
then add 5%methnol so that you perfume get sharp and sparkling
after that add 5%dpg and 5%pg
stir the liqurad slowly and then add 5% ipm
and finly add 30% perfume oil and stir slowly
once its dillute completly put it into the chiller for minmum 45 days
after 45 days ad 5 ml disteld water and put it once agin in chiller for 15 days
after 2 months complet just take your accord and put it into a perfume bottle and enjoy it with all the power and long lasting you are looking for.........

I'm sorry to be blunt but this is utter nonsense.

You need fragrance concentrate and ethanol, nothing else: the hard part is making the fragrance concentrate properly.

Propylene glycol, dipropylene glycol, isopropyl myristate and water are all useful solvents for certain fragrance components and, in small proportions, will do no harm but none of them is necessary. Methanol is poisonous, foul smelling and completely unsuitable for use in perfume.

There is no such thing as 200% pure alcohol (or 200% pure anything for that matter). 200 proof alcohol is the same as 96% v/v ethanol, and is fine for making perfume. I don't know where the 100% and 50% alcohol are meant to come in - that bit just makes no sense at all.

30% 'perfume' would be too strong for most purposes (if 'perfume' meant fragrance concentrate). With all the other additions the resulting blend would be too sticky to use in most atomisers too and with the addition of water or use of ethanol at less than 96% it would also be as cloudy as milk, which in turn would likely mean it would go off too.

There is no need to chill fragrance in order to mature it - that will just mean it matures more slowly - cold storage is useful once the maturation process is complete.

Like Chris said,

Balderdash!
Poppycock!
Codswallop!

Discombobulated Flibbertigibbet...

Come On! Eschew Obfuscation while you're at it...!

I know, I'm just being a pettifogger and widdershins...

when someone think about to make a perfume at home
what maximum step he can take to make an acoord like a frech perfume?
1) take a perfume oil (ready to dillute in alchol)
and have some alchol pure it into the perfume oil and
after a weak add some water.......your perfume is ready to wear........
now come to the second part..............
you need minimun 12 esenshal oils
4 for top note (citrus)
4for midlle notes(floral)
4 for base note(woody)
but the point is
esenshal oils are good but it is not the only option you have. you have to add lot of other chamical now what to do
spoze if we talk about top notes (the citrus note) you have estnshal oils like lemon lime bergamot and neroli..........but to make a modren perfume you need some chemicals also so what to do now ......?you have to add some chamicals like citral limonene geronal (in right amount......but the problum is some of citus chamical are to strong to add in top notes so its an art to collect the right one
if you have floral notes in the middle notes and now you have to give it a modran touch so you have to add some chamicals...............
spoze you are talking about benzil actate its have a light jasmin aroma and order is low (4 hours at smeling stip) this can be use in middle note due to its floral aroma but just becose of its low order you cant put it into the middle note so what to do now ?
now you have to take vernaldehyde its have a green mountain air carctor and have a good strenth and can blend well with citrus floral and woody notes
now to come to the third part
the base notes
in wich you have cedarwood oil sandalwood oil marrgum and ambergrees
now you have to add some chamical acoding to the streght of the bace oils
now its your scence of perfume making that what kind of chamicals you need to make a perfact blend
spoze you add sandalwood oil so you can add sandalwood assnece (its not an esanshal oils ) its a chamical compund and very pleazent
if you are making a perfume like this
yes there is no need 30% of perfume oil eaven 10% make a very strong scent
but if you are dealing with a perfume oil (in low strength) its up to you that what to do what not to do)
i know there is nothing like 200% but let me tell you what i mean
if have a vodka and it is 80% proof then its mean that its have 40% alchol
if you have 100% proof ethnol its mean its contain 50% alchol
and if you have 200% alchol then its mean mean its have minum 95% alchol like eaverclear and monshine
now come to the final point......................................
perfume making is not a kind of relgun in wich you dont have opstion that you are not allwod to do whateaver you want to do
all the perfumery methords are made by heumens like us..............
if there is a boy with toy and dont want to do something in wich he have to fight an uphill battle then there is no need to do any thing just have a rady made perfume oil and put it into the ethnol and its ready to wear
but if someone is serieus about perfumery then have to do somthing with the solvent to make a perfume
have to add some jojob or grapseed oil sweed almond oil
pg
dpg
ipm
as far as cunsorn of methnol is poison
what about benzene?
nitro benzen?
haydroxaldehyed ?
and ethnol by himself ?
hundreds of chamicals out there is nothing but a poison
so what to do now if all perfumer companies are making such craps?
you said all these solvents make perfume cloudy
ok...................
but give it a try...............

Tallat, it is quite clear that you do not know what you are talking about. There are those on this thread that have (collectively),centuries of experience; you are talking rubbish.

Ummmm, is it a troll?

Oh christ, is it?

...

You did indeed largely answer your very interesting question, I'd like to add a little.

While it's difficult to measure and the math is even worse, ultimately what is happening in the transfer of aroma molecules from the skin and materials on the skin and the air is a function of the chemical potential of the molecules. Chemical potential refers to the energy. A good analogy is gravitational potential. The higher up an object is, the more potential energy it has. If it is on a ramp let's say, its direction of motion will tend (strongly!!!) to be down the ramp, in the direction where the gravitational potential is less.

Similarly, the higher the chemical potential of the aroma molecules on the skin and in the materials on the skin, the more the molecules will be driven into the air, and the less time they will last.

Materials which themselves only slowly evaporate into the air, and into which the aroma molecules are highly soluble (have low chemical potential when dissolved in them) serve as fixatives by lowering their chemical potential.

There can be other effects as well, such as causing some shallow and reversible dermal penetration, but I have exactly zero information on that.

To use your analogy, let's say that a teenager is milling around with thousands of other teens, of whom only a few are basketball players. As it happens, the teens having no interest in basketball are in a hurry to leave the area, and he himself ordinarily might not stay long if not repeatedly getting suggestions to play basketball. However, as those teens leave, now seemingly everyone he meets is interested in playing basketball and he keeps getting invited.

The result is, he continues to hang around!

That's the most elegant reprimand that I've ever read - apologies.

i have a perfume oil with a very good lasting power....
but its not as diffusive as i want...
is it possibul for me to add some iso e super and hedone in little amount so that its become more diffusive.....
as i have been told that you should not play perfume oil(becse its a finesd product)
and the second one.........
is it posibul to add some ipm and dep to give strenght the perfume oil or it will spoile......

Diffusiveness generally speaking is a combined effect of evaporation and sensitivity for particular aroma chemicals for the human nose. Ethanol helps as a carrier in evaporation. It evaporates easier than carrier oils. Next you should look for a combination of low-molucule weight aroma chemicals that can be easily lifted (evaporated) with a great impact in olfactory terms.

I would look in the range of melonal, ultrazur, aldehydes, ambrocenide, cosmone, frankincense EO et cetera

This is correct. I've also never just dropped fixatives into a fleeting perfume to make it last longer.

A long lasting perfume has to built that way from the ground up. That is one thing that makes perfuming difficult. You are making a lime scent, and yet lime lasts about ten minutes. What do you do?

What you do is build a whole perfume that supports lime in, say, dozens of ways.

I'd say the bigger problem is having made the perfume with 85% percent alcohol without being sure that was the proper amount of alcohol. In my opinion, the ideal amount of both water and alcohol depends on the perfume.

- - - Updated - - -


There is nothing in the abstract one can add to strengthen a perfume. Having said that, there are definately cases where if you know exactly the right substance, you can add that substance to strengthen a perfume. It varies with the perfume.

It would be tough to do that with a finished perfume, however, because then you are dealing with water.

- - - Updated - - -

BTW, Chris also gives great info here, as per the usual.

i would like to make a perfume at home with Essential oils
but i have been told that in some cases the Synthetic give far batter result as compear to Essential oils
is there any help...........

---

Tallat, you have quite a fine capability to hijack a tread to try to get your own answer to your own question, instead of staying on the thread topic. You have tried to change the thread topic many times in recent history, for your own means.

If you wish to ask a question not in the original thread, or it's topic, please start your own thread... And ask your own question in that new thread, in the future... PLEASE!


Edited for further hand spanking!

On the other hand, I suppose that we could take a vote and get you thrown out for giving us such nonsense to talk about,, See above...!

Tallat - there's a 'sticky' thread near the top of this section entitled 'Primer on How to Make Perfume' - suggest reading that first as it's pretty helpful.