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Textbook Chypre and Textbook Fougere

post #1 of 27
12/23/12 at 1:12pm
Thread Starter 
Hi all,

If one were to exclude pricey niche frags, hard-to-source vintage frags, and other such "unobtania", what would be the most typical, representative, textbook example available today of a masculine chypre and a masculine fougere, respectively?

Please note that I am not asking for the best smelling fragrances of these types, but the most typical, textbook examples of these genres (as opposed to variations or twists on these fragrance families).

Thanks in advance.
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post #2 of 27
12/23/12 at 1:27pm
There is no such thing as the textbook fougère, chypre etc. anymore. In the first case, the range would lead you from Geo. Trumper's Wild Fern (trad.) through Beene Grey Flannel to Dior Fahrenheit, Cool Water and back to Penhaligon's Sartorial. All Fougère, all reference scents, except for the last, which is, however, very old-fashioned with a niche twist.
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post #3 of 27
12/23/12 at 1:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_good_life View Post

There is no such thing as the textbook fougère, chypre etc. anymore.

Agree.
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post #4 of 27
12/23/12 at 1:38pm
Agree with the_good_life that fougere can have such a wide range. That being said, Trumper's Wild Fern and Penhaligon's English Fern are, for me, classic reference points for the traditional style.
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post #5 of 27
12/23/12 at 2:18pm
I agree with my fellow BNrs here that finding a "reference" fougere is difficult, as fougeres assume so many different forms. As for chypres, Mitsouko is as reference as it gets.
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post #6 of 27
12/23/12 at 2:49pm
The fougère is reserved for masculine perfumery. And according to Roja Dove:
'A classic fougère is based on lavender, oakmoss and coumarin with bergamont,
geranium and vetiver'.
That accord, he say, 'is considered to be one of the freshest and most aromatic
to excist within perfumery.'
So find a fragrance with those, or most of those, notes, et voilÃ*; fougère!
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post #7 of 27
12/23/12 at 3:37pm
I have a bottle of Murdocks Fougere which is based on the classic Fougere with a soapy fresh lavender mixed in with fern green spices on a bed of Oakmoss. It smells really good and is very aromatic and mossy.
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post #8 of 27
12/23/12 at 3:52pm
I believe the term Chypre came from a fragrance from Coty called Chypre. You can still find it every once in a while on eBay and a sample can be had from a website called Crystal Flacon somewhere in it's posts.

This is the Chypre definition found under Basenotes 101-
Chypre – Based on a woody, mossy, floral accord, which can include leathery or fruity notes as well. Chypre perfumes have a rich and lingering scent. Chypre by Coty enjoyed such success in 1917 that “chypre” is now a generic name for a whole category of classic perfumes. The compositions are based on oakmoss, ciste-labdanun, patchouli and bergamot accords. The richness of chypre notes mixes wonderfully with fruity or floral notes. This family is made up of distinguished, instantly recognizable fragrances.
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post #9 of 27
12/23/12 at 4:46pm
For a classic-type, old-school Fougere you can't go wrong with the reformulated Worth Pour Homme. This is a dirtier, pre-Cool Water style fragrance. You can find it dirt cheap. Not universally representative but makes for a good start and won't set you back much.
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post #10 of 27
12/23/12 at 5:20pm
LT has pointed out that fougeres can range from those with a focus on the herbal aspects of lavender all the way to a kind of gourmand quality, so the only question (assuming he's right, which seems to be the case) is what did the original one smell like? To me, any frag with a very strong fougere accord and no other strong accord is a fougere frag, whereas others should be said to have a fougere accord. Some start as fougeres but then go somewhere else, such as oriental. Some have called those things like fougeriental. Chypre frags are often called that mostly due to the base accord. Bergamot doesn't have great longevity so to me this classification should be reconsidered. Mitsouko, for example, has strong peach, etc; few if any people think of it as having strong bergamot.
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post #11 of 27
12/23/12 at 5:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigsly View Post

Mitsouko, for example, has strong peach, etc; few if any people think of it as having strong bergamot.

Really? Bergamot is a necessary component in chypres and, as bergamot is a top note, is indeed transitory. I don't understand your argument.
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post #12 of 27
12/23/12 at 5:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by treeman5823 View Post

Really? Bergamot is a necessary component in chypres and, as bergamot is a top note, is indeed transitory. I don't understand your argument.

I don't understand yours! Most think of Mitsouko as the "reference chypre," yet it's not known for its bergamot. The soft mossy base is the key to frags usually called chypres, yet bergamot is often not a major element. If there are hardly any "true chypres" (other than tracking down some decades old bottle on ebay for $100+ dollars, and who knows how much change has occurred since the time it was made?), then why not just talk in terms of a chypre base? That's my point, though I'm not sure about what you are trying to say, exactly.
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post #13 of 27
12/23/12 at 6:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigsly View Post

frags usually called chypres, yet bergamot is often not a major element.




Chypre, pronounced: [ʃipʁ] or [ʃipχ], is the name of a family (or concept) of perfumes that are characterised by an accord composed of citrus top-notes, a middle centered on cistus labdanum, and a mossy-animalic base-note derived from oak moss and musks. Chypre perfumes fall into numerous classes according to their modifier notes, which include but are not limited to leather, florals, fruits, and amber. (Microsoft Encarta)

Top note could be a singular note or blends of Bergamot, Orange, Lemon or Neroli


Therefore: Chypre may not contain Bergamot as long as there are other citric notes.
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post #14 of 27
12/23/12 at 6:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by PerfumeCollector View Post

Chypre, pronounced: [ʃipʁ] or [ʃipχ], is the name of a family (or concept) of perfumes that are characterised by an accord composed of citrus top-notes, a middle centered on cistus labdanum, and a mossy-animalic base-note derived from oak moss and musks. Chypre perfumes fall into numerous classes according to their modifier notes, which include but are not limited to leather, florals, fruits, and amber. (Microsoft Encarta)

Top note could be a singular note or blends of Bergamot, Orange, Lemon or Neroli


Therefore: Chypre may not contain Bergamot as long as there are other citric notes.

When did peach become "citrus?"
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post #15 of 27
12/23/12 at 7:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigsly View Post

I don't understand yours! Most think of Mitsouko as the "reference chypre," yet it's not known for its bergamot. The soft mossy base is the key to frags usually called chypres, yet bergamot is often not a major element. If there are hardly any "true chypres" (other than tracking down some decades old bottle on ebay for $100+ dollars, and who knows how much change has occurred since the time it was made?), then why not just talk in terms of a chypre base? That's my point, though I'm not sure about what you are trying to say, exactly.

I don't think chypres are just about the base. In most guides to perfumes, the concept of a chypre is about the contrast between a fresh citric top and a mossy base. Perhaps some fruity notes can take the place of the top, just as the mossy feel of patchouli can now take the place of oakmoss (as in the case of 'modern chypres').

Well so many modifications to the idea of fougère and chypre, I am not surprised the OP wants to know textbook examples.

For me, I feel that textbook fougères would indeed be Wild Fern and English Fern, since they are closest in feel to the original fougère Fougère Royale by Houbigant, which pioneered the lavender-coumarin accord (the so-called fern accord; fougère is French for fern). In that sense, we can see/smell the structure of the fougère without the other notes obscuring the fern accord. Fougères are typically masculine anyway. Unfortunately, Wild Fern and English Fern are not exactly mainstream stuff (their houses can be classified as niche) and thus not easily obtainable.

As for chypres, I have read somewhere that Chanel Pour Monsieur is supposedly a clear example of a chypre. Perhaps the OP can try that.
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post #16 of 27
12/23/12 at 7:47pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks to everyone who has replied! This gives me some good options to explore...
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post #17 of 27
12/23/12 at 7:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigsly View Post

I don't understand yours! Most think of Mitsouko as the "reference chypre," yet it's not known for its bergamot. The soft mossy base is the key to frags usually called chypres, yet bergamot is often not a major element. If there are hardly any "true chypres" (other than tracking down some decades old bottle on ebay for $100+ dollars, and who knows how much change has occurred since the time it was made?), then why not just talk in terms of a chypre base? That's my point, though I'm not sure about what you are trying to say, exactly.

First off, Chypre, Francois Coty's 1917 piece which the genre "chypre" is based on, was constructed primarily with three ingredients: bergamot, cistus labdanum, and oakmoss. This is, I believe, where our ideas diverge. While all chypres indeed share a chypric chord--which is primarily that cistus and oakmoss that you mentioned--a chypre must also, by definition, include bergamot. While bergamot does not necessarily contribute to the aforementioned chypric chord, it is a necessary piece to a chypre's overall structure. Thus a chypre is not defined solely by its amber and moss chord, but by its overall structure.

- - - Updated - - -

Quote:
Originally Posted by PerfumeCollector View Post

Chypre perfumes fall into numerous classes according to their modifier notes, which include but are not limited to leather, florals, fruits, and amber. (Microsoft Encarta)

I actually contributed this section of Wikipedia's chypre article; it was complete crap before.
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post #18 of 27
12/23/12 at 8:30pm
Oakmoss, coumarin, and bergamot are now severely restricted - so one must concur with tgl's assessment that there are no good references anymore.

That said, the Penhaligon Fern could be the closest fougere, in substance but not in spirit, as it doesn't really smell particularly exciting. I'd say Azzaro pour homme is a better example. For chypres, as others have said, Mitsouko is still a reference, despite the reformulation. Chanel pour monsieur too, but the regular one, not the concentree, and then in vintage form, the current is weak.

cacio
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post #19 of 27
12/24/12 at 1:03am
I agree that Chanel Pour Monsieur is not very chypric in its current formulation, cacio.

I think Aramis is a good reference masculine chypre. Recent Mitsoukos can be a bit misleading, I think. I've smelled some that are very peach-dominant, with the chypre component very subdued. As others have said, it will be hard to find a good reference, as chypres are not what they used to be, with the severe restrictions on oakmoss. Making matters more complicated, there are many sub-genres that may not smell like the same thing at all: leather chypres, fruity one, straight citric ones, soapy ones, ...

I'm afraid that to really understand what a chypre is, you probably have to sniff vintage juice. Once you "get it" you can judge for yourself how chypre-y modern chypres truly are.

As for fougeres, cacio's suggestion of Azzaro is a good one, and cheap. Get a bottle of Brut as well - between those 2 you'll see what a fougere is.
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post #20 of 27
12/24/12 at 1:37am
Another good indication of the chypre triangle (Bergamot / Labdanum / Oakmoss) is Aromatics Elixir (EDT or Parfum) from Estée Lauder, which is easy enough to find - may be easier to get your hands on than Mitsouko Extrait.

You might Search / Google 'Leather Chypre' which could lead you to some interesting stuff - Bandit, Derby etc.

As mentioned above, with IFRA restrictions the chances of finding a current chypre or fougere are pretty well nil - they killed both genres . . . dead.
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post #21 of 27
12/24/12 at 2:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. reasonable View Post

As mentioned above, with IFRA restrictions the chances of finding a current chypre or fougere are pretty well nil - they killed both genres . . . dead.

Fougeres too? What component is restricted? I thought fougeres were a dying breed just because they are unfashionable or something.
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post #22 of 27
12/24/12 at 2:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rubegon View Post

Fougeres too? What component is restricted? I thought fougeres were a dying breed just because they are unfashionable or something.

Coumarin and oakmoss.
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post #23 of 27
12/24/12 at 3:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maque View Post

I don't think chypres are just about the base. In most guides to perfumes, the concept of a chypre is about the contrast between a fresh citric top and a mossy base...

Right, and my point is that this concept is of little use now. Also, there was a long thread in the Women's Forum in November (I think) and many of the frags suggested as great chypres would not meet this definition. It seems most "perfumistas" think it's all about the base, not a citric opening.
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post #24 of 27
12/24/12 at 7:37am
Agree that selecting a range of representative frags is better than trying to pick only one as an example.

The following charts are helpful when looking at fragrance categories and seing their historical relationships.


http://www.leffingwell.com/h%26rfrag...e_masculin.pdf

http://www.leffingwell.com/h%26rfrag...ie_feminin.pdf
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post #25 of 27
12/24/12 at 8:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by PerfumeCollector View Post

Chypre, pronounced: [ʃipʁ] or [ʃipχ]

Wha??
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post #26 of 27
12/24/12 at 9:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by PerfumeCollector View Post

Chypre, pronounced: [ʃipʁ] or [ʃipχ]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1280adam View Post

Wha??

Well, that means the pronunciation of chypre is like "ship(~throat gurgle]".
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post #27 of 27
12/25/12 at 5:07am
Since most masculine fragrances, with the exception of orientals, can be categorized as either Fougeres or Chypres I would suggest taking a look at the H&R Masculine Fragrance Genealogy where you can see the whole range of Fresh, Woody, and Ambery fougeres, as well as Woody, Leathery, Fresh, and Citrus chypres.
If you don't see fragrances you're familiar with in each category I would suggest checking out the ones in large fonts, which are considered as landmarks and trend-setters.
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