Mineral Notes?

Geosmin (if you can get it); smell of wet earth. Humus Absolute. Terrasol. Ethyl Amyl Ketone, and Amyl Vinyl Ketone, smell of mushrooms; fungal. Myrcene and ocimene smell metallic, harsh. Also try some of the straight chain aldehydes (C8, C9 and C10 especially). Ultrazure, and Rossitol, have a mineral, watery smell.

Good luck!

I'll add two more, Vetimoss, and the Mitti Attars. Mitti is literally Dirt distilled into a carrier.
The carrier can be DEP, a blend of sandalwood type oils, real sandalwood, or even distilled into Vetiver, if you can find it... (difficult)

Geosmin is one of the lowest threshold ppb perceptible aromatics in the world. Extreme care must be used when using it, do not get it into the water supply/table. And One Gram pure would be more Geosmin than probably all of us on the DIY forums would ever need, even diluted to 100,000%.

Paul Kiler

One of my suppliers stocks Geosmin but at around £500 for 5mg it is too expensive for me to contemplate buying. They do stock a solution but as that's in methanol (intended for analytical work) it's no use for fragrances. If you're determined to have it despite the cost, let me know and I'll see what I can do.

Terrasol is on my list of things to buy but I have a sample of Terranol, which is a different material but having some similarly earthy, wet qualities. I've an offer to buy some direct from Symrise that I'd love to take up, should there be enough interest: a few people contacted me as a result of this thread which also has details of the odour profile - if you want to add your name to the list that will encourage me to buy sooner rather than later!

I am SO curious about Geosmin!

I have seen that Sigma Aldrich stocks it at 377 euro for 5 milligram. If enough people is interested, we could share a buy. We could dilute it say at 1/1000 in alcohol, and then five of us could enjoy a full gram each of an extraordinarily powerful earthy scent.

Any takers?

Can *YOU* buy from Sigma?

They require me to have a business license at a business address to make a purchase.
Since I am a home business, this is difficult for me.

I'm *trying* to work around this, but have not yet succeeded.

If you are talking about dilution into alcohol, which one would want, then sending it around the world would prove costly and difficult. DPG would be better, if it dissolves into that, which then wouldn't be a hazardous shipment. but maybe it doesn't really matter at 1 gram. But what is maybe even better is 5grams alcohol dilution, then another 20 grams of DPG, which would be safer to ship too...

The US Price is $365/5mg which is still cheaper than 377 euros, (365 dollars = 274.37 Euros) due to weakness of the Dollar. If someone USA based can order and disperse...???

I'd like to be in too...

If you all do make this buy, can I buy from someone who's in? I would love to own some geosmin, but I don't need a whole milligram (what a strange sentence that was). If you dilute it to 1/1000, then that's a 0.1% concentration--is that right? Is Geosmin still useful diluted to .01% or .001%? If that's the case, then I'd love to buy a dilution from someone who has some of it.

Paul; yes, I have recently opened an account with Sigma and I have made my first purchase, just to test their service and delivery. I happen to own a registered business, although it is only marginally related to perfumery

It would be great indeed if someone in USA could order it. It is quite cheaper than in Europe, and we would also avoid the VAT tax, which in my country is a severe 21%.

If someone is ready to host this buy from the US, count on me for 1 or even 2 milligrams if needed to complete the purchase.

About dilution, sending a vial with 1ml. alcohol should be quite straightforward. Just wrap it in plastic bubble film and it could be sent by registered mail I guess...

Geosmin is soluble in DPG, as well as DEP, Carbitol and iso Propyl Myristate (as well as ethanol). When I used it regularly I only ever used it in solution; 0.1% is strong, 0.01% workable. It is powerful stuff, with a wonderful smell.

Hi all,
i'd like to be in for (max) 1/5th of the USA-based buy. However i would settle for 1/20th part too, given the strong scent.
The dilution scheme alcohol/DPG from Paul makes sense for shipping, but what final dilution would you recommend Paul, for use in our perfume organs?
Greetz from Holland!

Sorry to come to this again late - I'm certainly in for a proportion of this too and happy to sell some on to those in the UK who want small amounts if that's practical.

With the dilutions though remember the quantity is in milligrams - thousandths of a gram - so putting that into 5g of solvent to get a reasonably workable amount to split up would put it at a 0.001% solution - probably too weak for 1ml to be very useful I'd have thought given David's advice earlier and certainly not practical to split down further without further dilution: David what do you think?

I agree that avoiding the VAT would be great as it makes it 456 Euros with Spanish VAT, but don't forget that if it's value is declared on the package, you'll be charged the VAT anyway on import to the EU . . . The weak dollar would still help though.

I would love to join in as well if possible.

The Geosmin seems much like a Pyrazine, needing intense dilution. I diluted one Pyrazine 10,000% before it was useable/workable, in the perfume concentrate. (Which still got diluted later for the finished fragrance...

But I see minimum perceptibility for Geosmin ranging from 0.008 ppb (or 8 parts per Triilion) to 0.6 ppb - right there is a 1000 percent dilution difference, let alone the original parts per billion starting point. I still wonder if the dilution of such a large amount won't be just fine...? David, Where did you get your geosmin? Is there a better/cheaper source?

I haven't really been paying much attention to the group of you who wants to buy and share in a sample of Geosmin so I'm afraid I'm a little foggy on the details. From my own experience I know that I used to use Geosmin as a 0.1% solution, or a 0.01% solution, in my concentrated fragrance (which was then diluted down to the level required in the final product). Depending on the type of fragrance I would use more of less of the Geosmin solution (the same as any other raw material). I would have thought it would be possible (by serial dilution) to get down to the concentration required.

I was lucky that when I used Geosmin it was made by the company I worked for. Bush Boake Allen had a patent on the manufacture of Geosmin, and when BBA was taken over by IFF the patent was taken over as well. Geosmin was always expensive (but we got a preferential price, the cost to other houses was much higher) but as it was so strong it didn't matter. Apart from IFF I don't know who else makes Geosmin, nor do I know how the quality compares.

Dear David, Paul, Chris,
i'm not very good at this kind of calculations. Am i right that the 5 milligram Geosmin based on it's weight is roughly 0.5 milliliter; and, if we dilute to 0.1% this will give approximately 500 milliliters to split amongst the group buyers?
I would love to experiment with this aroma chemical, but i don't do any mass production, so a 20 ml bottle of 0.1% would be more than sufficient for me, given the fact that i will probably dilute further to 0.01% for daily usage in my perfume organ.
Does this make sense?

Yes.

If many people are interested it is well worth buying a larger amount, as (as has been noted) this will lower the price.

Yes.

If many people are interested it is well worth buying a larger amount, as (as has been noted) this will lower the price.

To clear things up:

About dilution: If I am right, diluting 5 mg. in 5 g of solvent will make a dilution of 1/1000, that is 0,1%.
Not 0,001%, (Chris)
Not 500 ml but around 5 ml. (jsparla & Nasenmann)

About price, we will have to add VAT if no one in the US is available to host the buy. In this case, perhaps the right host would be the one among us that lives in the lowest rate VAT country.

Count me in, in any case

- - - Updated - - -

Nasenmann,

10 mg is around 10 ml of 0,1%.

Each of us will get 1 ml at 0,1%, or 10 ml at 0,01%, which seems to be the recommended working dilution.

There have been several people on the Yahoo perfumemaking Group interested, let me publicize it there, and see if anyone shows up here to sign up...

i would be interested in getting some as well

Nova, that only took you about two minutes to sign up, after reading it on Yahoo Perfumemaking...

Exactly correct and I apologise for confusing matters even more than they were previously confused!

And I'm still in

Yep, i'm in and totally happy with an amount of 10 ml @ 0,01%
Thanx guys!

Sorry, but no. I no longer practice Perfumery and have no desire to receive any raw materials.

i know this is a perfume and not an ingredient, but Quartz by Molyneaux is quite mineral...you should try it!

Just on the question of where the buy is best hosted, there are some other factors to consider besides the VAT rate:
1) The host will have to have an existing SAFC account since they are not easy or quick to get (it took me 6 months and a telephone interview to demonstrate I knew what I was doing before they granted mine . . .)

2) The price isn't necessarily the same in each country - currently they are quoting £398.50 for 10mg plus UK VAT and delivery charge = £496.2 - whether that's better than, for example, the Spanish option with a slightly higher VAT rate will depend on the £/Euro exchange rate and whether SAFC charge for delivery in Spain.

3) There will be losses - I do this sort of thing all the time and you never get quite the full amount when you split something down: with an expensive material like this, great care will obviously be needed to minimise such losses, but nevertheless everyone should expect this.

4) There are other costs associated with this - bottles & labels of course but the main one is shipping to all the other destinations. Assuming everyone pays the host by PayPal there will also be their fees and currency exchange charges to add, so everyone should expect to pay quite a lot more than 1/10th of the price of the material.

5) The material requires refrigerated storage and transport. This is significant especially for those destinations outside the Northern Hemisphere were winter will conveniently keep it below 8 degrees Centigrade for us while it's in transit, but also important for the host: we don't want to find the material has evaporated or oxidised away because the vial was left in a warm lab . . .

6) Once in ethanol the material is technically not able to be sent in the ordinary post because of IATA regulations - I suggest that 10ml of ethanol is such as small amount that this can be ignored in practice - however policies for checking are different between countries so that might be significant in some cases.

7) Anything sent from outside the EU to an EU country will attract VAT on import (possibly other forms of Duty as well - in the UK no other duty is charged on perfumery materials, but that may not be true everywhere). The only exception (in the UK anyway) is personal gifts under £40 in value and commercial items under £18 in value. You can obviously declare a lower value on the package to avoid that, but that's risky because a) it's fraud and b) if the item is lost or damaged in transit you'll only have a claim for the declared amount.

Everyone should be clear these international joint-buys are a great idea but there are a lot of factors to consider.

Sorry, SAFC is shorthand for Sigma-Aldrich Fine Chemicals - the company whose prices we are comparing - they won't take an order from you unless you have an account with them and I know there are plenty of very well qualified perfumers here who don't have any such account and in some cases not for want of trying. Their policies seem to vary somewhat between countries (and possibly between States in the US as well) but the key point is it's not an assumption you can make and in addition some accounts are restricted as to the materials they will supply - I've not checked whether I can order Geosmin on mine yet - and some materials have additional regulatory restrictions too: SAFC have a whole department dedicated to ensuring they comply with all the varying restrictions and licensing requirements of the countries they trade in.

I'm not, btw, trying to argue that I should host this buy - frankly I'd just as soon not - but I do want everyone to go into it with their eyes open, especially those who've not participated in a group buy before.

Also I may be wrong but I thought VAT in Spain was 21%? UK VAT is certainly 20% and I think it's 19% in both Germany and Netherlands and 19.6% in France. There is a handy list of tax rates on Wikipedia.

I'm sure it does vary by country but I know that Javiero, in Spain, had to go through a process to get his account and that Paul Kiler, in the US was denied one because they will only deliver to business premises there, not to a residential address. Here in the UK I had to go through the interview process because I use my residential address for my business and they wanted to be satisfied that I knew what I was doing and had dedicated space set aside for it before they agreed. No idea what the process might be like in other countries as I only know about those three experiences.

I've got a call in to Sigma to see if I can persuade them of my worthiness...

Good luck Paul!

Meanwhile I see that Christie has just indicated her interest on the Yahoo forum and willingness to host the split too - I believe she has a suitable business address so that might be an excellent solution.

Off topic:

Burocracy is one of the unexpected hurdles one finds on any kind of pursuit. I had never imagined that persuading companies to accept me as client would be a significant task in this particular field. After applying for the licence to use heliotropin, I received two visits to my office by a shiny badge-wielding police team, including their sampling of my (as of yet) amateurish compositions, a detailed review of my premises, and the need to buy a suitable safe box. The final step featured a new visit from a middle aged female inspector that interrogated me in depth about my knowledge of perfumery and took detailed pictures of my organ. Fortunately I passed the test and now I have my shiny licence. The next step is the actual ordering of the product, that has (so far) required me to send a signed declaration of my lawful intent to my supplier.

Isn´t everything too complicated nowadays?

OK< got OK'd for an account with Sigma Aldrich, YAY!but not OK'd for buying Geosmin... ahhh...

That's just ridiculous. Buying small amounts of heliotropin shouldn't be a big deal, don't you need fairly large quantities to make illicit drugs from it? Chemical synthesis comes with significant material loss, I doubt anything less than 1kg of heliotropin would yield enough drugs to make a profit.

Geosmin isn't within their category box of Flavor and Fragrance materials. And it might be hazardous for shipping... don't know, but they did say they wouldn't ship hazardous items to me. But for F&F items, and if I have a biz license, can tell about/show my lab area in my home, no big deal then for them...Attachment 18991

My space is small, and a LOT more cluttered/filled now than when than this pic was made, but this is what I'll show them...

In the UK they are slightly more pragmatic: you simply sign a declaration and pay HM Revenue & Customs a large fee to get your licence. Obviously this is on the basis that drug barons have no money

~deleted duplicate post~

I have another friend who wishes to remain anonymous who would like one spot, you can ship this to me. This person may also be able to purchase, Thanks

Paul, I can´t image how the shipping of 10 mg. of anything other than live virus or bacteria could be hazardous!

Is your friend US based? If he/she is able to puchase from SA that would be great! Please keep us informed.

Btw, I have just seen your web. Congratulations! Would you be able to ship samples of your perfumes to Europe, or would this be hazardous too?

-delete-

I was also denied as business property is not and never will be classed commercial, they also use google earth to apraise your details.

Hi Frank, Welcome to Basenotes, I think message #23 answers the question you have, best to read thru the whole thread though, to clear up any other Q's...

- I've been curious to try this ever since it was brought up in group discussion a couple of years ago...

Something else I've been dying to try....Nootkatone (grapefruit/citrus note, sans the sulfurous nuance) only source, and exorbitant cost, has been a huge deterring factor, lol...

There are so many wonderful raw materials out there, it would be impossible to obtain every single one, I'm sure it would take years, lol...

Frank C.

I got a nootkatone sample last year. A new process that is substantially cheaper to manufacture, but still extremely expensive...

Here's a quote from the supplier:
" we are in the process of reducing prices for 2012 due to increasing yields and scale. The new 20+ kg. price is $2400/kg."

Ok, so getting back to "Mineral Notes" apart from Geosmin, What project are you working on Nasenmann?

I've been working on a reconstruction of Djedi by Guerlain, and it's minerality aspect...
I've gotten it analyzed by GC-MS to start the process. But the Analyzer is stumped by it, it's his first tim in 40 years of working that he's been stumped by an analysis...

And then after hours of research online as well, and now on my 5th stab at a general approximation, (but without benefit of a good GC-MS to start from), I'm please with where it is going...

It certainly has a cool minerality to it...

Hi,
What was the result of trying to acquire Geosmin?
I'm interested.
TIA

I now have a sample of "Geosmin Neat", the IFF product, the name of which is misleading as it is in fact at 1% in DPG. Owing to the puppy situation I've not yet had time to evaluate it properly and in any case my supplier is unable to give me a price or even tell me with certainty that they can supply it . . .

However I believe Javiero has bought some of the pure material from SAFC as is willing to sell some on after dilution.

Just bought some from Javiero via the Yahoo Niche Group thread.